Tao Te Ching question

[nac]

Why is every translation so different? Do a lot of translators take liberties when rendering it in English? For instance, what do you think of this one: http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/books/cha...?t=tao_te_ching

[DaoChild]

Yes, the problem with translations is that many translators imprint their own thoughts into the translations. The best answer is learn to read Chinese and then translate it yourself

 

Until then, I would browse through several translations. I own a few -- only because some are easier to understand, some are beautifully poetic, and some are very conservative and more truthful to the original message.

 

It's good to find a variety, and nowadays you don't even have to pay for them, just go online.

 

Edit: I flipped through the first few chapters of that translation, and personally wasn't too fond of it.

Edited June 15, 2009 by DaoChild

[contrivedname!]

based on my extremely limited knowledge of this, i understand that many scholars still dispute the meanings of many ancient chinese pictographs; also there are many different versions which have been discovered such as the mawangdui texts and the guodian laozi. there is also the so called recieved version, as well as that of wang bi, heshang gong and others. these are all different versions and different scholars translate different versions. some folks on the website www.daoisopen.com translate the TTC from chinese to english, they have a whole sub-forum dedicated to this.

 

hope this helps a bit,

chris

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

The problem is two fold.

First: Classical Chinese has very little grammar and the many characters can mean multiple things.

 

Second: Laozi was a master of language, writing in poetry, and he constantly used double meanings and puns. He typically would layer his poems so that they could be read in a variety of ways. This was intentional. So translators can only really give you one side of any given poem without just giving you the characters.

 

Adding to this problem is that there is a HUGE number of translations out there done by people who have NEVER seen it in Chinese. They just look at a bunch of translations and make there own version...and publish it... sigh.

 

 

Luckily, Classical Chinese has ridiculously easy grammar and follows the English subject-verb-object pattern, so all you need to translate it yourself is a glossary. If you have any grammar questions beyond this, I suggest finding a copy of Pullyblank's Classical Chinese Grammar. I don't think that you will find it too hard, though. Last year I had a bunch of my 9th grade English students translate the first poem as a homework assignment without much explanation, and they did fine.

 

For example:

 

Dao ke Dao Fei Chang Dao. = The Way that can be traveled is not the lasting Way.

 

Or = The Way that can be spoken is not the eternal Way.

 

Both work perfectly, but mean very different things. Which did Laozi mean?! I vote for both.

 

 

http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing.php

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

And I just looked at your link and read their "translation".... Yeah....no. Just no.

 

They clearly did not read the original characters, or if they did they are being very dishonest to the text and forcing it into something very, very Buddhist and nothing like the original. At all. Even slightly.

 

Follow the link I gave above, read the Chinese by pointing your mouse over the characters, and see the definitions for yourself.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[WhiteTiger]

[lienshan]

Dao ke Dao Fei Chang Dao

 

And I just looked at your link and read their "translation".... Yeah....no. Just no.

 

They clearly did not read the original characters

The original characters were: Dao ke Dao Fei Heng Dao

 

Heng became a taboo-character in 196 BCE and was replaced by the character Chang.

 

The pictograph Heng is the name of the I Ching hexagram 32. I read the pictograph Heng as showing a heart and a boat between two riverbanks, symbolizing the beating of a heart. That'll say neither "lasting" nor "eternal", but "naturally" or "self so"; the opposite of being managed or controlled. That'll say synonymous with the phrase Zi Ran.

[forestofclarity]

In my view, the Tao Te Ching is a mirror.

 

Scholars see scholarly things.

 

Qigong practitioners see qigong.

 

Zen practitioners see Zen.

 

Externalists see cosmology.

 

Internalists see psychology.

 

None of these conflict. The Tao is limitless.

[dwai]

In my view, the Tao Te Ching is a mirror.

 

Scholars see scholarly things.

 

Qigong practitioners see qigong.

 

Zen practitioners see Zen.

 

Externalists see cosmology.

 

Internalists see psychology.

 

None of these conflict. The Tao is limitless.

 

superimposition

[contrivedname!]

Adding to this problem is that there is a HUGE number of translations out there done by people who have NEVER seen it in Chinese. They just look at a bunch of translations and make there own version...and publish it... sigh.

 

yea when i found out that folks did that i was kind of astounded

[perhaps]

Yes, the problem with translations is that many translators imprint their own thoughts into the translations. The best answer is learn to read Chinese and then translate it yourself

 

and then you will be able to put your own imprint onto it...and if you like it, publish!

 

I recently read a translation of the chuang tsu which for me shed a new light on a certain part in particular and made an immediate and lasting change to my understanding of Tao and Yin/Yang..i'd not read that particular translation before and when i went back and re-read one or two others they both differed from the first but were "faithfull" to each other.

[Aetherous]

It's important for people to interpret the TTC in their own way, to make it more understandable...because from what I understand the original version is just a bunch of words strewn together in kind of a nonsensical way. And each word has multiple meanings. And who knows what exactly Lao Tzu was discussing? Like forestofemptiness said, it could be about pretty much anything.

 

So it's great that there is a whole universe of translations and interpretations out there. Within the huge pile, there's probably one very true and excellent one!

[lienshan]

The Guodian Tao Te Ching is "one very true and excellent one!" because:

 

This 300 BC Tao Te Ching version is the only one known written in the original bronze characters.

 

All the other Tao Te Ching versions are in fact translations into "modern" chinese characters

and are thus by logic edited Han-dynasty time interpretations.