This is for the stubborn Vajrahridaya bodhisattva

[goldisheavy]

Then, the crown prince Manjusri said to the Licchavi Vimalakirti, "Noble sir, how does the bodhisattva follow the way to attain the qualities of the Buddha?"

 

Vimalakirti replied, "Manjusri, when the bodhisattva follows the wrong way, he follows the way to attain the qualities of the Buddha."

 

Manjusri continued, "How does the bodhisattva follow the wrong way?"

 

Vimalakirti replied, "Even should he enact the five deadly sins, he feels no malice, violence, or hate. Even should he go into the hells, he remains free of all taint of passions. Even should he go into the states of the animals, he remains free of darkness and ignorance. When he goes into the states of the asuras, he remains free of pride, conceit, and arrogance. When he goes into the realm of the lord of death, he accumulates the stores of merit and wisdom. When he goes into the states of motionlessness and immateriality, he does not dissolve therein.

 

"He may follow the ways of desire, yet he stays free of attachment to the enjoyments of desire. He may follow the ways of hatred, yet he feels no anger to any living being. He may follow the ways of folly, yet he is ever conscious with the wisdom of firm understanding.

 

"He may follow the ways of avarice, yet he gives away all internal and external things without regard even for his own life. He may follow the ways of immorality, yet, seeing the horror of even the slightest transgressions, he lives by the ascetic practices and austerities. He may follow the ways of wickedness and anger, yet he remains utterly free of malice and lives by love. He may follow the ways of laziness, yet his efforts are uninterrupted as he strives in the cultivation of roots of virtue. He may follow the ways of sensuous distraction, yet, naturally concentrated, his contemplation is not dissipated. He may follow the ways of false wisdom, yet, having reached the transcendence of wisdom, he is expert in all mundane and transcendental sciences.

 

"He may show the ways of sophistry and contention, yet he is always conscious of ultimate meanings and has perfected the use of liberative techniques. He may show the ways of pride, yet he serves as a bridge and a ladder for all people. He may show the ways of the passions, yet he is utterly dispassionate and naturally pure. He may follow the ways of the Maras, yet he does not really accept their authority in regard to his knowledge of the qualities of the Buddha. He may follow the ways of the disciples, yet he lets living beings hear the teaching they have not heard before. He may follow the ways of the solitary sages, yet he is inspired with great compassion in order to develop all living beings.

 

"He may follow the ways of the poor, yet he holds in his hand a jewel of inexhaustible wealth. He may follow the ways of cripples, yet he is beautiful and well adorned with the auspicious signs and marks. He may follow the ways of those of lowly birth, yet, through his accumulation of the stores of merit and wisdom, he is born in the family of the Tathagatas. He may follow the ways of the weak, the ugly, and the wretched, yet he is beautiful to look upon, and his body is like that of Narayana.

 

"He may manifest to living beings the ways of the sick and the unhappy, yet he has entirely conquered and transcended the fear of death.

 

"He may follow the ways of the rich, yet he is without acquisitiveness and often reflects upon the notion of impermanence.

 

 

 

He may show himself engaged in dancing with harem girls, yet he cleaves to solitude, having crossed the swamp of desire.

 

"He follows the ways of the dumb and the incoherent, yet, having acquired the power of incantations, he is adorned with a varied eloquence.

 

"He follows the ways of the heterodox without ever becoming heterodox. He follows the ways of all the world, yet he reverses all states of existence. He follows the way of liberation without ever abandoning the progress of the world.

 

"Manjusri, thus does the bodhisattva follow the wrong ways, thereby following the way to the qualities of the Buddha."

 

Then, the Licchavi Vimalakirti said to the crown prince Manjusri, "Manjusri, what is the 'family of the Tathagatas'?"

 

Manjusri replied, "Noble sir, the family of the Tathagatas consists of all basic egoism; of ignorance and the thirst for existence; of lust, hate, and folly; of the four misapprehensions, of the five obscurations, of the six media of sense, of the seven abodes of consciousness, of the eight false paths, of the nine causes of irritation, of the paths of ten sins. Such is the family of the Tathagatas. In short, noble sir, the sixty-two kinds of convictions constitute the family of the Tathagatas!"

[Blind Owl]

Forgive me Faither for I huv sinned, I huv read a thread not intended for my eyes.

 

Although if this is REALLY ONLY for Vajrahridaya, maybe you should consider PMing or even just getting a room.

[Siliconvalley1]

Forgive me Faither for I huv sinned, I huv read a thread not intended for my eyes.

 

Although if this is REALLY ONLY for Vajrahridaya, maybe you should consider PMing or even just getting a room.

 

 

Well, it still fits the definition if you are an eternalist - its all one essence after all - there is only ONE ... no DO no DAH ... So Vajrahridaya can be anybody and everybody

[Vajrahridaya]

Well, it still fits the definition if you are an eternalist - its all one essence after all - there is only ONE ... no DO no DAH ... So Vajrahridaya can be anybody and everybody

 

Even though I have literally seen through other's eyes. I understand that all beings are unique, interdependent and empty of self essence. I am not you and you are not me. I still have ego pertaining to being a first born in this universe and have that grandiose ego to surmount. Where the merit accumulated from the previous universe caused a sense of vastness and bigness. Only through D.O. can this be fully dismantled. Not through absorption into infinite consciousness, not through absorption into non-conceptual integration with things as if non-conceptual faceless consciousness gives birth to all this... no. Only through following the very subtle wisdom of the Buddha, of Shakyamuni as expressed through many ways. I do follow the Vajra path.

 

goldisheavy...

 

I truly feel deep affection for your personhood. I hope to only be as deeply realized as your copied verses speak. Since the house of the Tathagata is empty and Bodhisattvas act in many ways to make karmic connections to influence towards liberation in the future. Yes, the house of the tathagata's are filled with deeply realized beings who make karmic connections by only acting foolishly, only that others may feel brotherhood with this person and feel kinmanship. For someone who just sits in the mountains speaking to birds and ascended masters? May serve a purpose and may still be what some highly realized beings do... but how does that truly make karmic impressions that will later be influenced to be released through the release of the being who has made steps to make such connections.

 

I hear... I feel... I want to know... only so that others may know.

 

I love for all...

 

I hope even on my worst days.

 

May I make this prayer repeated by goldisheavy my home.

 

Many tears have been shed and my girlfriend is trying to say, "don't cry", but I tell her, not all tears are tears of sadness...

 

p.s. I still don't feel that you truly understand what D.O. of the Buddha is saying though...

Edited June 18, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

ok... this is a common problem with those that have experienced oneness

Harivajra says: (2:44:56 AM)

that they identify with a knowing

Harivajra says: (2:45:26 AM)

or a grand knower of all... it's a kind of subtle pride that's subjective on a very subtle level that will bring forth very powerful experiences that seem objective to reify the experience of... I AM COSMOS

Harivajra says: (2:45:32 AM)

it's soo subtle and deep

Harivajra says: (2:45:36 AM)

a very deep bliss trap

 

 

Only D.O. can dismantle this... And humble a Brahma.

[Sunya]

Forgive me Faither for I huv sinned, I huv read a thread not intended for my eyes.

 

Although if this is REALLY ONLY for Vajrahridaya, maybe you should consider PMing or even just getting a room.

 

[Siliconvalley1]

nWHfFdmisoo

Edited June 18, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[Vajrahridaya]

I want to know how I'm stubborn though. Because sometimes I think there's too much responsibility given to me in way's that are so deep and subtle. So... obviously there is still a clinging to a self here. Otherwise I'd just let that grand responsibility flow beautifully like I know it can.

[forestofclarity]

What is the first and second Noble Truth?

 

D.O. is a medicine to dissolve clinging. But what happens when you cling to the medicine?

 

p.s. I still don't feel that you truly understand what D.O. of the Buddha is saying though...

[Sunya]

there is no clinging to the medicine because the medicine de-clings you, or atleast it should.

[CarsonZi]

"The second insight into the Second Noble Truth is: 'Desire should be let go of.' This is how letting go comes into our practice. You have an insight that desire should be let go of, but that insight is not a desire to let go of anything. If you are not very wise and are not really reflecting in your mind, you tend to follow the 'I want to get rid of, I want to let go of all my desires' -- but this is just another desire. However, you can reflect upon it; you can see the desire to get rid of, the desire to become or the desire for sense pleasure. By understanding these three kinds of desire, you can let them go."

 

Taken from here: http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/truths3.htm

 

Love,

Carson

[Vajrahridaya]

What is the first and second Noble Truth?

 

D.O. is a medicine to dissolve clinging. But what happens when you cling to the medicine?

 

Who's clinging?

 

D.O. is just how the cosmos works, and it doesn't work any other way.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Technically speaking, the "desire" to understand the emptiness of all things, when totally "satisfied," would be the final true contentment since the nature of desire itself is rooted out. It's the one and only "desire" worth pursuing, because its fruits are eternal? No?

 

I think Forestofemptiness is mentioning how people can become stuck on the conceptual view of things.

[Vajrahridaya]

Technically speaking, the "desire" to understand the emptiness of all things, when totally "satisfied," would be the final true contentment since the nature of desire itself is rooted out. It's the one and only "desire" worth pursuing, because its fruits are eternal? No?

 

Yes, the desire to attain liberation for the sake of all beings is a beneficial desire and yes, the fruits even after eradication of clinging to even that desire are endless..................................

 

I think Forestofemptiness is mentioning how people can become stuck on the conceptual view of things.

 

I do agree, but that's about all we have to push around here...

[contrivedname!]

"The second insight into the Second Noble Truth is: 'Desire should be let go of.' This is how letting go comes into our practice. You have an insight that desire should be let go of, but that insight is not a desire to let go of anything. If you are not very wise and are not really reflecting in your mind, you tend to follow the 'I want to get rid of, I want to let go of all my desires' -- but this is just another desire. However, you can reflect upon it; you can see the desire to get rid of, the desire to become or the desire for sense pleasure. By understanding these three kinds of desire, you can let them go."

 

Taken from here: http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/truths3.htm

 

Love,

Carson

 

great explanation carson, kind of reminded me of "avoid not temptation" (oops just slipped into the incomplete monistic discipline of christianity ). a friend of mine and i had a discussion about that phrase, or rather kind of shared a joke, he said something like by avoiding temptation you are doing the same thing when you were giving into temptation, sort of similar to the 2nd noble truth, or carson's commentary on it. the interesting thing about this friend too, is that he used to be a pretty hardcore addict of many substances.

 

Chris

 

oops just realized that that wasnt carson's commentary

Edited June 18, 2009 by contrivedname!

[goldisheavy]

p.s. I still don't feel that you truly understand what D.O. of the Buddha is saying though...

 

Try me.

[goldisheavy]

D.O. is just how the cosmos works, and it doesn't work any other way.

 

Not quite. Dependent Origination is a contemplative topic and a method of contemplation in Buddhism. It's not "THIS IS HOW UNIVERSE WORKS". It's not a definitive description of reality. Buddha was not in the business of stating what reality is or is not. Buddha was in the business of ending suffering, which is very very different from setting oneself a task to accurately describe the world you find yourself in.

 

So DO is a method. In particular it's a method of contemplation. It's not a "how it is" statement.

 

Remember that the sublime doctrine (including DO) is beyond the 4 extremes of "is", "is not", "neither is nor is not" and "both is and is not"? Remember that? I guess you don't remember it since you're a new convert to Buddhism.

[Vajrahridaya]

Try me.

 

What is the parent of anything?

[xabir2005]

Not quite. Dependent Origination is a contemplative topic and a method of contemplation in Buddhism. It's not "THIS IS HOW UNIVERSE WORKS". It's not a definitive description of reality. Buddha was not in the business of stating what reality is or is not. Buddha was in the business of ending suffering, which is very very different from setting oneself a task to accurately describe the world you find yourself in.

 

So DO is a method. In particular it's a method of contemplation. It's not a "how it is" statement.

 

Remember that the sublime doctrine (including DO) is beyond the 4 extremes of "is", "is not", "neither is nor is not" and "both is and is not"? Remember that? I guess you don't remember it since you're a new convert to Buddhism.

The Perfect One is free from any theory, for the Perfect One has understood what the body is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what feeling is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what perception is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what the mental formations are, and how they arise, and pass away. He has understood what consciousness is, and how it arises, and passes away.

 

Therefore, I say, the Perfect One has won complete deliverance through the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection, and getting rid of all opinions and conjectures, of all inclination to the vainglory of I and mine.

 

- Majjhima Nikaya, 72

 

 

 

Enlightenment is about awakening, about realising the nature of reality, it is not a method. Methods are simply skilful means. By truly realising the nature of reality, one frees from the notions of "I" and "mine", of "existing", "non-existing", both, neither, etc. Being freed from such notions he does not make statements such as an ultimate existent, or non-existent, etc. By seeing/realising all phenomenon as it is -- as dependently originated, one is pacified from the views of "it is" or "it is not", apart from mere convention. And hence, the Buddha teaches that to see Dependent Origination is to see the Dharma, to see the Dharma is to see the Buddha.

 

And precisely because all phenomena are empty of inherent existence due to D.O., they are without any defining characteristics. We only see inherent characteristics when we fail to see D.O.

Edited June 19, 2009 by xabir2005

[Vajrahridaya]

Not quite. Dependent Origination is a contemplative topic and a method of contemplation in Buddhism. It's not "THIS IS HOW UNIVERSE WORKS". It's not a definitive description of reality. Buddha was not in the business of stating what reality is or is not. Buddha was in the business of ending suffering, which is very very different from setting oneself a task to accurately describe the world you find yourself in.

 

So DO is a method. In particular it's a method of contemplation. It's not a "how it is" statement.

 

Remember that the sublime doctrine (including DO) is beyond the 4 extremes of "is", "is not", "neither is nor is not" and "both is and is not"? Remember that? I guess you don't remember it since you're a new convert to Buddhism.

 

No... I was Buddhist in past lives which I remember... Whatever that means without reification, just karmic circumstance of this inherently empty, interdependently originated through infinite paradigm mind-stream.

 

It's still all D.O. which is an experience that does not reify you as a parent of anything. No identity to cling to as... oh yeah!!

 

 

Enlightenment is about awakening, about realising the nature of reality, it is not a method. Methods are simply skilful means.

 

Of which D.O. is both method and realization as well as how an enlightened being act's through without clinging to D.O. at all... For it's the all's empty of inherency anyway.

[Sunya]

Edited June 19, 2009 by mikaelz

[forestofclarity]

Mikaelz,

 

Buddhist teaching is holographic. The whole teaching is reflected in each of its parts. If we try to understand it apart from it's core, we do it a disservice. The core of Buddhism is in the Four Noble Truths.

 

Read this passage again carefully. The first paragraph of the introduction:

 

This is a discourse about clinging to views (ditthi). Its central message is conveyed in two similes, among the most famous in the Canon: the simile of the water-snake and the simile of the raft. Taken together, these similes focus on the skill needed to grasp right view properly as a means of leading to the cessation of suffering, rather than an object of clinging, and then letting it go when it has done its job.

 

Clinging/craving as the cause of suffering is central in Buddhist teaching. It is also important in other teachings: in Taoism, blockages and obstructions prevent the free flow of energy. In Zen, non-abiding prevents ignorance. In Christianity, one is forbidden from making idols of the divine.

 

The dhamma is to be used, specifically, to end suffering. It is not to be taken home and mounted on a wall. It is not to be hung as an ornament around one's neck. One does not carry the raft, on either side, when not in use.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

The dhamma is to be used, specifically, to end suffering. It is not to be taken home and mounted on a wall. It is not to be hung as an ornament around one's neck. One does not carry the raft, on either side, when not in use.

 

Actually one does in fact. The Buddha wore the Dhamma even after full liberation, he spoke it, lived it, breathed it, was it's mirror.

[goldisheavy]

Actually one does in fact. The Buddha wore the Dhamma even after full liberation, he spoke it, lived it, breathed it, was it's mirror.

 

Not exactly. Just keep reading. Don't assume. Buddha was more complicated of a character than you might think naively. For example, did you know that one time he got fed up with all the monks and nuns and ran away from them? Also do you know that Buddha said that true monks are not attached to the virtues? Even to the Buddhist ones? It's all in the Pali Canon. Too bad I don't have the time to look all of that up for you, but if you read the Pali canon every day, you'll come across it in no time.

[Vajrahridaya]

Not exactly. Just keep reading. Don't assume. Buddha was more complicated of a character than you might think naively. For example, did you know that one time he got fed up with all the monks and nuns and ran away from them? Also do you know that Buddha said that true monks are not attached to the virtues? Even to the Buddhist ones? It's all in the Pali Canon. Too bad I don't have the time to look all of that up for you, but if you read the Pali canon every day, you'll come across it in no time.

 

Do you think that I feel that the Dhamma is merely all that fluff? I practice Dzogchen after all.

 

You don't have to look all that up because I've read it and I feel that his most profound statement was the one he made right after enlightenment before Lord Brahma asked him to preach.