Phurba and dorje any others?

[mewtwo]

So tonight I was given a Phurba by my buddhist teacher. So I came home and did some research on it. It is quite interesting, and I was wondering are there other things like phurba's? I know of the dorje. What about in other religions?

[Spiritual_Aspirant]

Well, in the esoteric sense, phurbas and dorjes are magical implements. Much like wands, athames, etc in the western magical tradition. I think in India, fakirs have rods that they use as a magical implement. I'm not sure about Taoist magic though, so far all I've seen in movies are wooden swords, bagua mirrors, paper talismans, etc.

[Inedible]

In Wicca they use the word Athame.

 

You symbolically use your knife to cut through ignorance and attachment.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

The closest thing in Taoism is the ritual sword, which was either made from metal, peach wood, or from bond coins, and would be engraved with constellations. They were used primarily for exorcisms, ghosts and fox spirits.

 

Here are some other Taoist ritual implements:

 

http://eng.taoism.org.hk/religious-activit...ls/pg4-6-10.htm

[Trunk]

A bell complements the dorje. Bells, gongs, bowls, are

[goldisheavy]

So tonight I was given a Phurba by my buddhist teacher. So I came home and did some research on it. It is quite interesting, and I was wondering are there other things like phurba's? I know of the dorje. What about in other religions?

 

In Dzogchen tradition also the mirror and the peacock feather can be used in rituals.

 

In Taoism there is horse tail whisk. Mak Tin Si notified us that its primary function is cleaning (like to sweep out ghosts or bad energies or something like that), if I remember correctly.

 

In the Western traditions an obvious thing that everyone knows is the crystal ball. Sometimes a bowl of water (or some other water surface), a candle (or some other fire), or a pyramid might be used for something.

 

Generally these things are creative and left up to the practitioner. They are not strictly prescribed because mystic paths teach mental flexibility and critical thinking instead of dogma.

[rex]

The Phur-Pa, Tibetan Rituals Daggers

 

[Couldn't get this to embed like You Tube videos]

[minkus]

The Phur-Pa, Tibetan Rituals Daggers

 

[Couldn't get this to embed like You Tube videos]

 

Hey thanx for this link, printing em now

 

My favourite ritual object next to the Phurba would be the keris from Indonesia

 

Regards !

[rex]

Hey thanx for this link, printing em now

 

My favourite ritual object next to the Phurba would be the keris from Indonesia

 

Regards !

 

You're welcome

[Josh Young]

Of course the Dorje is the Vajra, this is the sacred thunderbolt of the gods, including the roman and greek gods, which are actually just translations of the Vedic gods. The hammer of Thor is analogous to the vajra/dorje and the runes are analogous to the i-Ching.

 

Then there are stones called celts but known as thunderbolts in nearly every place they are found. This is relevant because the word for these stones has the same meaning in every culture, even Mesoamerica, Chinese, Indian, African, Germany etc. They are the thunder stones of the gods and match better the early descriptions of dorjes in the vedic scriptures. This type of weapon, a celt, can also be made out of jawbones, when you hear of a certain biblical character killing people with the jawbone of an ass then consider that such bones have been used to make the very sacred weapon of which I speak. Celts are indestructible compared to most things and are typically made from very hard rock, the vajra name means diamond, this seems to be an allusion to the celts.

 

People will tell you celts are axes, however they have been found in pouches for ready use without a haft, they have been found embedded in animals, well preserved, but without handles. They could be hafted and were often in a couple of ways, but they make excellent throwing weapons and hand held cutters. they are like a combination of spear, club, axe and sword.

 

If you want to learn more about the vajra and dorje, look to old religious art, the farther back you go in this regard, the more curious the design of the sacred weapon becomes, becoming more axe like.

 

The old tales also mention the dorje/vajra being made of human bone.

 

It is a tremendously powerful weapon that works very well with taiji.

[mewtwo]

Does anyone know if the dorje was ever used as a phisical weapon? I was told that you could use a phurba to send energy to help people like a wand anyone know if you could do this with a dorje? How do you phisicaly use a dorje like i have seen it being used to tap people on the heads and in conjunction with a bell are there any other phisical things you do with it?

[Josh Young]

The use of the Dorje as a physical weapon is mentioned in vedic scriptures where it is called a vajra. There is also a move in some martial arts called the vajra Pestle, also called Buddhas warrior attendant pounds mortar.

It can be used for throwing, striking with impact, trapping and putting pressure on sensitive or strategic points. It is used essentially as an extension of the body and most movements of the body can be adapted for use with one. The types made as religious symbols are neither designed for nor should they be in general used as weapons, however there are in general two types of this weapon categorically:

1 types that have sharp edges that will spill blood,

2 types that have blunt edges and will not spill blood.

 

There are several designs of the weapons some of which can be seen in old statues but no longer appear to exist in extant forms. Of the sharp types there are four basic forms, axe like, dagger like, claw like and spike like. Of the blunted forms there are often fused claw like designs with multiple protrusions. There are specific symbolic qualities incorporated into the dorjes/vajras that vary according to the manufacturing tradition, however the basic design is rather well conserved.

 

I am by no means an expert on the subject, but celestial weapons is a subject of study of mine.

[chimera]

Hullo

I'm a new guy who is old and retired , taking information and asking questions,  looking forward by seeing the ancient Dreaming of Australian Aboriginal people.

Their time-frame is continual : the past and future exist now . This is not so strange when some faiths have prophecies which influence life now and their deities are ever-existent.

So I googled phurba and mudra and like  a flash of light in dark screens , the wise ones are speaking. There was a small-pox epidemic ( again ) when Europeans forced their terror gunpowder into tribal life and in 1835 there was a "wacanna" with "gudtha" and "mudthirra" in Australia to protect against the disease. (Speakers of Javanese language will know what I'm on about).

It included using 9 inch twigs in the song-dance which were struck against the arms of others in the dance.

More details will follow after this hurried introduction . After all , they died 2 centuries ago ......

[Nungali]

So tonight I was given a Phurba by my buddhist teacher. So I came home and did some research on it. It is quite interesting, and I was wondering are there other things like phurba's? I know of the dorje. What about in other religions?

 

Not sure about religions, but the purba's equivalent in  western magic would be the dagger and the dorje ( a bit trickier but sorta like ) the wand.  There are a lot more as well, objects that have a similar function in magic and  Tibetan ....  well, magic   .

 

There are other things a bit like a phurba within its own tradition, like the 'phurba' in a 'demon queller set' ,  it has an extra long handle ( so you dont have to get too close to the demon. 

[Nungali]

Does anyone know if the dorje was ever used as a phisical weapon? I was told that you could use a phurba to send energy to help people like a wand anyone know if you could do this with a dorje? How do you phisicaly use a dorje like i have seen it being used to tap people on the heads and in conjunction with a bell are there any other phisical things you do with it?

 

It has a triangular head like an armour piercing arrow , shaft or spear.   In some aspects, they can all be 'weapons' ... in the western magical tradition, the vast array of 'magical tools' are also known as 'magical weapons', even if they are not 'weapons' as such  eg. the ' Furnace' is the 'magical weapon of Cancer'  also, the girdle is the magical weapon of Venus. 

 

 

I have seen a phurba being used as a type of acupuncture needle in the earth ,   sometimes they are huge  (always mounted point down)   also there are some huge  dorges out there !

 

 

[Nungali]

The use of the Dorje as a physical weapon is mentioned in vedic scriptures where it is called a vajra. There is also a move in some martial arts called the vajra Pestle, also called Buddhas warrior attendant pounds mortar.

It can be used for throwing, striking with impact, trapping and putting pressure on sensitive or strategic points. It is used essentially as an extension of the body and most movements of the body can be adapted for use with one. The types made as religious symbols are neither designed for nor should they be in general used as weapons, however there are in general two types of this weapon categorically:

1 types that have sharp edges that will spill blood,

2 types that have blunt edges and will not spill blood.

 

There are several designs of the weapons some of which can be seen in old statues but no longer appear to exist in extant forms. Of the sharp types there are four basic forms, axe like, dagger like, claw like and spike like. Of the blunted forms there are often fused claw like designs with multiple protrusions. There are specific symbolic qualities incorporated into the dorjes/vajras that vary according to the manufacturing tradition, however the basic design is rather well conserved.

 

I am by no means an expert on the subject, but celestial weapons is a subject of study of mine.

 

 

here is your Christmas presents :

 

 

 

 

( more juice @    http://thedaobums.com/topic/37221-demon-queller-sets/  ) 

[Nungali]

Hullo

I'm a new guy who is old and retired , taking information and asking questions,  looking forward by seeing the ancient Dreaming of Australian Aboriginal people.

Their time-frame is continual : the past and future exist now . This is not so strange when some faiths have prophecies which influence life now and their deities are ever-existent.

So I googled phurba and mudra and like  a flash of light in dark screens , the wise ones are speaking. There was a small-pox epidemic ( again ) when Europeans forced their terror gunpowder into tribal life and in 1835 there was a "wacanna" with "gudtha" and "mudthirra" in Australia to protect against the disease. (Speakers of Javanese language will know what I'm on about).

It included using 9 inch twigs in the song-dance which were struck against the arms of others in the dance.

More details will follow after this hurried introduction . After all , they died 2 centuries ago ......

 

Gingi walla widtha  cuz !   

 

Magical 'weapons' ?  Certainly !  

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Who said they stopped developing their technology thousands of years ago ?    

 

 

 

[chimera]

Thanks Nungali

There certainly was the Dreaming , the ancient animism. As in Bali there seems to be a combination with dharma but the Buddhist element may be identified. How do you view the following quotes? :

 

Wacana

wacana.ui.ac.id/

Wacana is a Journal of the Humanities of Indonesia, published by Faculty of Humanities, University of Indonesia.

Malay wacana "discourse"

Old Java:  wacana  (Skt) speech, words; sound, voice; teaching.

    (m)awacana  to speak, teach
    winacanākĕn   to utter or address (words)

wacanamaṅgala  (Skt) auspicious (benedictory) words

 

Skr.

vacana n. injunction of a teacher 
वचन vacana
advice  .causing to recite

xii. April-June 1835

Rev. W. Watson's Journal from Apl 1st to June 30th 1835
"  .. to celebrate Waganna (a dance) to Baiami ..  when Baiami gave the "Gudthi" (song) which they now chant  to him,  after the first celebration of the "Waganna" . He also commanded them to use small Twigs about 9 inches in length which they were to beat against each other in the "Waganna' ..These Twigs are named "Mudthir' from Mudthirra which signifies repeated beating or, thrashing.  . The natives say Baiami is not to be lightly spoke of, nor his song taken in vain."

---

song?

gudthi < Skr *gud play?

Old Java  : guḍuh
    aguḍuhan  making a confused noise, tumultuous, in an uproar

 

The Second Dalai Lama: His Life and Teachings - Page 21

 

https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=155939949X

Glenn H. Mullin 
; ... Known as gatha, these traditional verses were not only attributed to the Buddha but also to many of his direct disciples. ... Much of the tantric literature attributed to the Buddha is also expressed in verse, known as vajra gita, or "diamond songs.

 

 

Possibly mudthir < mudra

Skr.

mudraṇa n. the act of sealing up or closing or printing   

mudraṇīpattra n. a proof-sheet  
mudraya Nom. P. yati - , to seal, stamp, print, mark 

मुद्रा mudrA  seal or any instrument used for sealing or stamping

Old Java  mudra  (Skt mudrā) particular position of the fingers (with sacred function and meaning; with supernatural efficacy); seal, signet ring.

mudrābandhana  (Skt) the putting (intertwining) of the fingers in mudra-position

 

mudrākāra  (Skt) with the appearance of (represented as) making a mudra

mudrārcana  (Skt) worship with mudras
mudrawidhi  (Skt) prescribed performance of mudras

Explanation of Buddhist Mudras

www.buddhas-online.com/mudras.html

 

This mudra is characteristic of Buddha Shakyamuni and Dhyani Buddha .... The hands hold the Vajra (=thunderbolt, male) and Ghanta (= bell, female). The right ...

 

For taming all enemies, use the Vajra Pestle Mudra. The Mantra: "Om Vajra Zini Pra Nipadoye Svaha" .

Edited December 16, 2015 by chimera

[Nungali]

I am not sure what you mean by the question 'How do I view them" ?   

 

Could you be more specific ? 

 

( Your mob  Gunbaynnggir  neighbours ?    out near Yarrowitch somewhere ....  Walcha  ... Mt Seaview  ( I saw some weird shit at Mt Seaview !    ) 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Nungali

[chimera]

( hairs rise on back of neck)..

Yes Yarrowitch. 1 valley 50km east of Walcha, grew up there.....

(blinks..back to topic..)

That's Dhungutti ,  Nganyawana is Armidale.

I'm neither Buddhist nor Murri so I post stuff to find any comments which may lead to further inquiry.  The Waganna is in Wiradjuri which has the Ngurampaa  elders' camp-site as the reference point for places in country.  Murawari on the north also has Ngurampaa , and Euahlayi on the west at Bourke has Bida-Ngulu and "fire in forehead" like Chakra.  ( All these are from Tibet but it was closely linked with Sumatra 1000 years ago.)

 

 

 "Budar budarum , bugal paigal "   :   Bundjalung.

 "Taurai tai kanga"      :  Gamilaroi.

[Nungali]

( hairs rise on back of neck)..

Yes Yarrowitch. 1 valley 50km east of Walcha, grew up there.....

(blinks..back to topic..)

 

Gotchya !        

 

That's Dhungutti ,  Nganyawana is Armidale. 

 

I'm confused .....Nganyawana is Armidale.  Gamilaraay ?       .... Then who came down to this place and nabbed the women, I thought it was  Gamilaraay 'from Armidale' .  Someone from  beyond the end of the valley, up past Point Lookout ... thats where Old Man Nungli is still staring at ;

 

http://www.timaickin.com.au/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=17115&g2_serialNumber=2

 

Anyway, I move in pretty limited circles  - closer to the coast . 

 

 

I'm neither Buddhist nor Murri so I post stuff to find any comments which may lead to further inquiry.  The Waganna is in Wiradjuri which has the Ngurampaa  elders' camp-site as the reference point for places in country.  Murawari on the north also has Ngurampaa , and Euahlayi on the west at Bourke has Bida-Ngulu and "fire in forehead" like Chakra.  ( All these are from Tibet but it was closely linked with Sumatra 1000 years ago.)

 

 

 "Budar budarum , bugal paigal "   :   Bundjalung.

 "Taurai tai kanga"      :  Gamilaroi.

 

Are you comparing words from different languages finding similarities with each other and  Indonesia ... and Tibet , and some related concepts ?  

 

Interesting, but linguistics was one of things that helped me to choose not to try and graduate  ( back in  those days of free Uni ),  but I am interested in it.  A friend speaks several languages based on Bundjalung and what he calls the  'Mother tongue' an older style of Bundjalung that nearby languages evolved out of.   Uncle LInk told me a story about how they came down from Gulf country into this area due to tribal displacements when the oceans rose. 

 

Up there there was a lot of contact with Indonesia, some Aboriginal men even had Indonesian wives and children there, the Indonesians would take the Australian men back and forwards.  Some of them have an old and very secret dance that is about and mimics the use of swords. 

 

Going further back, I often wonder about the Australoid culture in India - SW Asia   ( the relationship to the Dingo and the Indian wild dog is interesting to ) , there are a few remnant pockets there that are pretty interesting .   The Andaman Islanders also seemed part of it ...... either the ocean was a lot lower than we realise, or they were pretty good seafarers , to get out there. 

 

Interesting stuff  . 

[Nungali]

Someone's take on it , going back to Africa ;

 

The following paired tribal names are in an African/Australian order. Keep in mind that these books were written by two different men at two different times on two different continents. The exact spellings are taken from each respective above book: Anna/Anna, Bemba/Bemba, Goa/Goa, Gogo/Gogo, Jang/Jang, Jawara/Jawara (Adaman Islands), Koko/Koko, Kuri/Kuri, Madi/Madi-Madi, Maori/Maori (New Zealand), Mau/Mau, Mau/Maui (Hawaii), Meru/Meru, Munga/Munga, Nana/Nana, Ngala/Ngala, Ngumbu/Ngumbu, Ngundi/Ngundi, Njao/Njao, Nyamba/Nyamba, Tura/Tura, Waka/Waka, Woga/Woga, Yang/Yang, Yao/Yao. 

Several near duplicates in the order of African/Australian here follow: Ngaga/Ngadja, Ngalaga/ Ngalagan, Ngama/Ngamadi, Ngamatak/ Ngamatta, Ngan/Ngan:a, Nganda/Nganadjara, Ngiri/ Ngirla, Ngoal/Ngoala, Ngolo/ Ngolok, Ngombe/Ngombaru, Ngoni/Ngonde, Ngulu/ Ngulubulu and Nguludjara, Nguru/Nguro, Njamus/Njamat, Njanja/Njana, Njungene/Njung, Nyamang/Nyamba. 

In the 20 to 40 thousand years that it took for Africans to migrate to Australia, the tribal names remained intact. If tribal names remain intact, what could be deduced about other aspects of culture and tradition?

 

 

http://historum.com/speculative-history/29186-ancient-black-presence-americas-10.html

[chimera]

OK so I need to ask , how Yarrowitch came up in your mind? 

Gamilaroi country is 20km west of Armidale so ask them who came down to take women. (They will probably deny it all, it was another mob from Dhungutti). 

Bundjalung say a boat arrived from Ngareenbil "overseas islands" and meaning "your beloved countryman" in Old Balinese language.  The 3 brothers and grandmother with Old Bali names gave laws and language to countries.

There would be pairs of words anywhere but are they meaning the same thing and used by people who can be shown to be linked?  Macassan words in north Australia have the same meaning in the 2 populations, linked by fishing contacts.

[Nungali]

A yarrow witch is a person who throws the I ching       

 

I dont know much about overall different country , I thought Armidale was Gamilaraay, so when you wrote Nganyawana I looked it up and the map I looked on, it seemed to come down into 'Oxley Wild Rivers' area , which I thought was Dhungutti ,  so to get a closer look I went to google maps , roughly over the area, zoomed in and ended up between Yarrowitch and Walcha . 

 

I cant really say how things come up in my mind , its mostly unconscious stew, then something pops up through the surface and ... bing!  - there it is. 

 

 The area, has some history for me;  My elder brother was a teacher for a while at Yarras (back then a one class all age tiny little schoolhouse by the river, near the sawmill ) , I stayed at the bottom of Mt Seaview for a while camping and had pretty rad experiences ending with a rushed evacuation and escaping a flash flood by minutes. ... and that waterfall on the way to Walcha ... talk about intense energy in that area !   I have only zoomed through Yarrowich ( that I can remember, but it has a strange 'magnetic' attraction to me since I was young )  .   Strangely enough, about a week ago, I was thinking of going for a little trip that way.   Sometimes when I think about Yarrowitch (which has happened a few times during my life ), I get the same  image of a  small house /  cottage with extensive gardens .  

 

I should take the trip, I can do a circuit , down to Port and up the Oxley Highway,  Mt Seaview, Walcha, Armidale, Dorrigo, down the  mountain and home.   But not at this time of year,  to much crazy Xmas traffic.

 

Where are you now ?  Armidale ? 

 

{ I noticed you said you were not Murri ,  I didnt realise they used that word up there  (  here it is Koori , Gorri )  I only heard that in  north of  Bundjalung.  }

 

- Look, I am interested in learning a lot more about this , but it is getting pretty far from phurba and dorje 

 

... maybe we should PM ?  

Edited December 18, 2015 by Nungali