Bruce Lee?

[boyshood]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/08...141&sr=1-33

[Yuen Biao]

Who were the seniors in question? I can't remember, maybe Wong Shun Leung. I spoke to one of Bruce's classmates privately, who said Bruce's fast hands (not his training theories) were his greatest advantage.

 

You are correct, Lee learned mostly from Master Wong. It is said that Lee wanted to continue learning Wing Chun in HK as a result of spending time with Wong during the making of 'Enter the Dragon'.

 

Lee was not a Master in the true sense of the word but he had amazing skills and trained more than any pro-fighter ever does. What is perhaps more interesting is the fact that Lee was nowhere near finding his potential due to his early death. Imagine if Lee had the chance to study Taijiquan and Qigong later in his life?

 

For me personally Lee was an influence on my martial training and he continues to be so.

[enouch]

You are correct, Lee learned mostly from Master Wong. It is said that Lee wanted to continue learning Wing Chun in HK as a result of spending time with Wong during the making of 'Enter the Dragon'.

 

Lee was not a Master in the true sense of the word but he had amazing skills and trained more than any pro-fighter ever does. What is perhaps more interesting is the fact that Lee was nowhere near finding his potential due to his early death. Imagine if Lee had the chance to study Taijiquan and Qigong later in his life?

 

For me personally Lee was an influence on my martial training and he continues to be so.

 

 

 

Lee, spent some time socializing with old friends who practiced wing chun but he had abondoned wing chun long ago.Trading in his mook jong for a heavy bag.Also some of the wing chun adepts didn't approve of Lee using machines,vitamins,and cutomized equipment.On several occasions he said trapping was out at his schools, he cancelled the order realizing that wing chun develops lightening fast reflexes.That's valuable.Lee knew about taji chuan through his father and practiced it.He also knew some choy lee fat.He even used hypnosis on occasion.Didn't like calling it that though.Here's a little known story:While making ETD.Bolo[won't butcher the guys name] stopped by his house and lee had two tape players[with separate earphones] with different sounds.One filled with sledgehammer/construction noises and the other meditation music.He would alternate betwenn the two,playing them eventually at the same time.He also wore a device with metal wires while doing this.He told bolo ''no ,I'm not crazy ,the idea is to condition the nervous system so it's relaxed during a fight.Since the nervous system guides the muscles,the more relaxed you are the faster you are.Helps with mental concentration as well.Another artist stopped by his house i the states caught him watching a film of Muhamed Ali, moving exactly like him.He explained to his friend ''people say I must fight with Ali someday so I'm learning how his nervous system works,how his body thinks.Light years ahead!

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Lee, spent some time socializing with old friends who practiced wing chun but he had abondoned wing chun long ago.Trading in his mook jong for a heavy bag.Also some of the wing chun adepts didn't approve of Lee using machines,vitamins,and cutomized equipment.On several occasions he said trapping was out at his schools, he cancelled the order realizing that wing chun develops lightening fast reflexes.That's valuable.Lee knew about taji chuan through his father and practiced it.He also knew some choy lee fat.He even used hypnosis on occasion.Didn't like calling it that though.Here's a little known story:While making ETD.Bolo[won't butcher the guys name] stopped by his house and lee had two tape players[with separate earphones] with different sounds.One filled with sledgehammer/construction noises and the other meditation music.He would alternate betwenn the two,playing them eventually at the same time.He also wore a device with metal wires while doing this.He told bolo ''no ,I'm not crazy ,the idea is to condition the nervous system so it's relaxed during a fight.Since the nervous system guides the muscles,the more relaxed you are the faster you are.Helps with mental concentration as well.Another artist stopped by his house i the states caught him watching a film of Muhamed Ali, moving exactly like him.He explained to his friend ''people say I must fight with Ali someday so I'm learning how his nervous system works,how his body thinks.Light years ahead!

 

Quite interesting! Thank you.

[Yuen Biao]

Lee, spent some time socializing with old friends who practiced wing chun but he had abondoned wing chun long ago.Trading in his mook jong for a heavy bag.Also some of the wing chun adepts didn't approve of Lee using machines,vitamins,and cutomized equipment.On several occasions he said trapping was out at his schools, he cancelled the order realizing that wing chun develops lightening fast reflexes.

 

You are mistaken.

Master Wong Shun Leung helped Lee choreograph parts of 'Enter the Dragon' as a result Lee wanted to continue his Wing Chun training with Master Wong and finish the form.

 

Others have noted that Lee's 'style' began to resemble Wing Chun (once again) before he died.

 

The Wing Chun adepts didn't approve of his methods, so you are correct but this was way back in the 1960's, Lee was actively trying to seek out Yip Man's forgiveness so that he could film him for his own research.

[enouch]

You are mistaken.

Master Wong Shun Leung helped Lee choreograph parts of 'Enter the Dragon' as a result Lee wanted to continue his Wing Chun training with Master Wong and finish the form.

 

Others have noted that Lee's 'style' began to resemble Wing Chun (once again) before he died.

 

The Wing Chun adepts didn't approve of his methods, so you are correct but this was way back in the 1960's, Lee was actively trying to seek out Yip Man's forgiveness so that he could film him for his own research.

 

 

 

 

No, kind sir I'm not mistaken.I can provide references for everthing I've written.Again Lee wrote in a letter to William Cheung that''I've lost faith in chineese classical arts or just traditional ways'' Doesn't mean he discarded everything from wing chun,just expanded on his foundation.People often say jeet kune do is wing chun or american boxing.Not even mentioning the fencing part,the role Alfred Nadi played on Bruce.Jeet kune do is a hybrid art desighed in a western context.Now, some claim there is classical jeet kune do or jeetkune do concepts but it's all jeet kune do since they are all trained in the fundamentals.J.K.D. is about personal evolution.Before he died you could see the influences of kali[E.T.D.] or[sorry Linda] stick fighting and grappling had on him.See recent footage of game of death or sequence against hapikido grand master.Another little known fact from Larry Hartsell''Bruce was planning on establishing a league or organization for m.m.a. just like U.F.C.'' Probally would have expanded on his self desighed equipment,maybe become a brand like Nike or Jordan.

Edited July 1, 2009 by enouch

[Yuen Biao]

No, kind sir I'm not mistaken.I can provide references for everthing I've written.Again Lee wrote in a letter to William Cheung that''I've lost faith in chineese classical arts or just traditional ways'' Doesn't mean he discarded everything from wing chun,just expanded on his foundation.People often say jeet kune do is wing chun or american boxing.Not even mentioning the fencing part,the role Alfred Nadi played on Bruce.Jeet kune do is a hybrid art desighed in a western context.Now, some claim there is classical jeet kune do or jeetkune do concepts but it's all jeet kune do since they are all trained in the fundamentals.J.K.D. is about personal evolution.Before he died you could see the influences of kali[E.T.D.] or[sorry Linda] stick fighting and grappling had on him.See recent footage of game of death or sequence against hapikido grand master.Another little known fact from Larry Hartsell''Bruce was planning on establishing a league or organization for m.m.a. just like U.F.C.'' Probally would have expanded on his self desighed equipment,maybe become a brand like Nike or Jordan.

 

Well let's put it this way, I heard different to you.

Master Wong was talking about this right upto the time of his death; others agreed that Lee's style was veering once more towards WC. I know that Lee incorporated much from other arts into his philosophy but he did want to finish his WC training.

 

I know JKD was personal evolution and liberation but Lee still sought out to finish what he had began previously whilst also learning many other things.

 

Besides the letter you refer to was written in the late 1960's, yes? Things can change.

 

Interesting story from Larry Hartsell there, and testament to how far ahead of the game Lee was. Do you have a link?

Edited July 2, 2009 by Yuen Biao

[enouch]

Well let's put it this way, I heard different to you.

Master Wong was talking about this right upto the time of his death; others agreed that Lee's style was veering once more towards WC. I know that Lee incorporated much from other arts into his philosophy but he did want to finish his WC training.

 

I know JKD was personal evolution and liberation but Lee still sought out to finish what he had began previously whilst also learning many other things.

 

Besides the letter you refer to was written in the late 1960's, yes? Things can change.

 

Interesting story from Larry Hartsell there, and testament to how far ahead of the game Lee was. Do you have a link?

 

 

 

 

Yes tthe letter is from the late 60's and Ted Wong[he has backyard footage of Lee training,spent more time training with Lee than anybody] confirms that Lee had those sentiments.Also in the letter which I didn't include is the other part of his statement as to why he'd lost faith in wing chun.''I genuinely feel my system has more to offer regarding being effective'' He got into a fight which took him longer to finish than it should have.In addiction,he had to reconsider certain techniques when dealing with different races in the States,bigger body types and so forth.The statement from Larry comes from a hard cover jeet kune do book on grappling.I can get the tittle if you wish.Important to note B.K.Franztis noticed a similar weakness in w.c. as well.When viewing full contact matches in Asia people would take punches from w.c. practitioners ,then take them down to the ground.He observed wing chun is great if you are fighting in a elevator but limited in open space.But it develops lightening fast reflexes.BY the way, have you seen the new footage of Lee sparing with someone at Burbank studios? It was suppose to be released by now.

[Yuen Biao]

Yes tthe letter is from the late 60's and Ted Wong[he has backyard footage of Lee training,spent more time training with Lee than anybody] confirms that Lee had those sentiments.Also in the letter which I didn't include is the other part of his statement as to why he'd lost faith in wing chun.''I genuinely feel my system has more to offer regarding being effective'' He got into a fight which took him longer to finish than it should have.In addiction,he had to reconsider certain techniques when dealing with different races in the States,bigger body types and so forth.The statement from Larry comes from a hard cover jeet kune do book on grappling.I can get the tittle if you wish.Important to note B.K.Franztis noticed a similar weakness in w.c. as well.When viewing full contact matches in Asia people would take punches from w.c. practitioners ,then take them down to the ground.He observed wing chun is great if you are fighting in a elevator but limited in open space.But it develops lightening fast reflexes.BY the way, have you seen the new footage of Lee sparing with someone at Burbank studios? It was suppose to be released by now.

 

Interesting points.

 

On the subject of WC you have to remember that JKD was founded upon it and Lee sought to improve on it by creating better mobility and ultimately fluidity. Taky Kimura I believe began learning WC after Lee's passing so that is also an interesting factor to note.

 

I know the facts as to why Lee had initially lost faith with WC but you have to remember that Lee had not completed the form; if he had maybe he would have won the fight quicker? There was still much for Lee to learn in WC as he was well aware. You have to remember that Master Wong's WC was tweaked slightly in comparison to Ip Man's; maybe that has some bearing on the matter?

 

Re: 'new footage' - I hadn't heard anything about that at all. Have you seen it? Sounds intriguing...

[enouch]

Interesting points.

 

On the subject of WC you have to remember that JKD was founded upon it and Lee sought to improve on it by creating better mobility and ultimately fluidity. Taky Kimura I believe began learning WC after Lee's passing so that is also an interesting factor to note.

 

I know the facts as to why Lee had initially lost faith with WC but you have to remember that Lee had not completed the form; if he had maybe he would have won the fight quicker? There was still much for Lee to learn in WC as he was well aware. You have to remember that Master Wong's WC was tweaked slightly in comparison to Ip Man's; maybe that has some bearing on the matter?

 

Re: 'new footage' - I hadn't heard anything about that at all. Have you seen it? Sounds intriguing...

 

 

No I haven't seen it Ted Wong mentioned it in a recent book by his student dealing with punching.I hear it's pretty exciting! It was suppose to be released by now,I was hoping you had seen it.Jeet june do is partially based on wing chun it is also based on fencing,classic boxing,Jim Driscoll,Jack dempsey, all played a role in the development of j.k.d.But it's different from boxing also since the lead hand is the strongest and does most of the work.The rear heel is raised like a spring,which Bruce got from Aldo Nadi the great fencer.Reconizing most modern sports are charecterized by bending[balance in motion] knees and dynamic balance. He incorporated those elements as well.Footwoork is taken from fencing[some boxing] as are most of the theories:bridging the gap,the progesive indirect atack,the beat, single angulated attack, stealing a step.There are three forms in wing chun no? I read he'd learnt the first form-great little idea[sil lum something] before he abandoned classical forms.He did say forms are good for martial gymnastics-keeping limber.But for him a drill had to be functional-realistic.Martial to him meant being warlike...anything that works.Tacky Kimura learned from Bruce when he was still teaching a lot of wing chun in Seatle..so it makes since for him to study it.Ted said anything after 1967 should be considered j.k.d..Also Ted and Dan Innosanto are most versed in what Bruce taught,believed,accepted later in life.

 

For example ,Dan showed Bruce some Kali and Escrima, some of which Bruce liked and some of which he thought was bullshit! This comes from Dan.

[Yuen Biao]

No I haven't seen it Ted Wong mentioned it in a recent book by his student dealing with punching.I hear it's pretty exciting! It was suppose to be released by now,I was hoping you had seen it.Jeet june do is partially based on wing chun it is also based on fencing,classic boxing,Jim Driscoll,Jack dempsey, all played a role in the development of j.k.d.But it's different from boxing also since the lead hand is the strongest and does most of the work.The rear heel is raised like a spring,which Bruce got from Aldo Nadi the great fencer.Reconizing most modern sports are charecterized by bending[balance in motion] knees and dynamic balance. He incorporated those elements as well.Footwoork is taken from fencing[some boxing] as are most of the theories:bridging the gap,the progesive indirect atack,the beat, single angulated attack, stealing a step.There are three forms in wing chun no? I read he'd learnt the first form-great little idea[sil lum something] before he abandoned classical forms.He did say forms are good for martial gymnastics-keeping limber.But for him a drill had to be functional-realistic.Martial to him meant being warlike...anything that works.Tacky Kimura learned from Bruce when he was still teaching a lot of wing chun in Seatle..so it makes since for him to study it.Ted said anything after 1967 should be considered j.k.d..Also Ted and Dan Innosanto are most versed in what Bruce taught,believed,accepted later in life.

 

For example ,Dan showed Bruce some Kali and Escrima, some of which Bruce liked and some of which he thought was bullshit! This comes from Dan.

 

That sounds awesome, let us know if you see it?

 

I know JKD; studied it awhile myself (many years ago) with a top student of Dan Inosanto. I feel its ultimately limited, Lee felt the same. Philosophically it works brilliantly (like MMA) but in practise it is not an experience like learning Taijiquan.

I understand completely Lee's point about 'rigid adherence' to form but at the same time it does give you a solid core (structure) to build from so it is very important, just like Zhan Zhuang.

 

There are three 'empty hand' forms to WC, one Mook Jong, one Butterfly knives and then the Long Pole form. There is probably more after you master all six but I guess most people do not get that far!

 

I see JKD as a fluid version of WC personally. Dan introduced Lee to the grappling aspects of Kali (Dumog) in 1967 and I believe Larry Hartsell was also present who introduced grappling even more to JKD.

 

'enouch' I need to see that video!

[enouch]

That sounds awesome, let us know if you see it?

 

I know JKD; studied it awhile myself (many years ago) with a top student of Dan Inosanto. I feel its ultimately limited, Lee felt the same. Philosophically it works brilliantly (like MMA) but in practise it is not an experience like learning Taijiquan.

I understand completely Lee's point about 'rigid adherence' to form but at the same time it does give you a solid core (structure) to build from so it is very important, just like Zhan Zhuang.

 

There are three 'empty hand' forms to WC, one Mook Jong, one Butterfly knives and then the Long Pole form. There is probably more after you master all six but I guess most people do not get that far!

 

I see JKD as a fluid version of WC personally. Dan introduced Lee to the grappling aspects of Kali (Dumog) in 1967 and I believe Larry Hartsell was also present who introduced grappling even more to JKD.

 

'enouch' I need to see that video!

 

 

Well we agree to disagree on practicality.I've used J.K.D. in actual street fights and when a kid after studying it for a short while I was able to penetrate the defenses of a 3rd degree black belt in karate,who was also a national champion.The greatest drawback for me is that you can't use a lot of the techniques in practice because they are desighed to be fatal.Or you need equipment which isn't always handy-available.Most J.K.D practitioners who are beginners to the martial arts lack a understanding of its sublety or depth.It is best for some one to be trained in traditional arts then after a while embrace J.K.D. for what it offers.Jim the guy who studied with John Chang[mo pai] had several black belts and got moped by a Gracie jujitsa stylist.As a result, he gave up his martial arts practice.A lot of traditionalist suffer from illusions when it comes to safety and feeling secure until reality hits them-kinda like the I.R.S. or Cancer.

 

I will also admit one of the greatest drawbacks of J.K.D. is the lack of a world philosophy[world view] people want values and a feelng of the sacred in their arts.You see the same thing in nlp,which is also suppose to be devoid of worldviews.But people grow and change and some have started[Roger Dilts] to apply nlp to metaphysics.Bruce felt if you're not careful nationalism can creep into those views.He thought charecter is developed through fighting[trainng,sparring] or meditation.I feel the same I separate my martial arts practice from my chi gung practices.Video would be nice but I'd like to see Bruce versus Wang shu Jin.If Wang's abilities could be applied on non -believers Bruce might not stand a chance! Then again...real world-tactics,conditioning,can even out a fight.

[ssttinstitute]

[gendao]

Edited July 3, 2009 by vortex

[ssttinstitute]

Actually, his mother was 1/2 White, so he was actually only 1/4 White.

Anyhow, I agree that it was his natural star quality + martial arts proficiency that made him a superstar.

 

Because technically, he was not that advanced by Chinese standards of martial skill level. Certainly, I am sure he could not hit like your Sifu Hata. However, JKD does provide a good mobile delivery system for such strikes, had he learned them. Which is something many Chinese arts do lack - a good mobile delivery system for their "nuclear" payloads. I think you just have to know what "strong suit" to extract from each art.

 

Personally, I would take from:

Wing Chun: Angles of attack & centerline theory

Taijiquan/Baguazhang/Xinyi/Liuhebafa/Etc: Internal "peng" structure, whole body power, rooting, etc

SSTI/Burning Palm/Etc: Devastating internal strikes

JKD/Boxing/Fencing/Etc: Mobile defensive & offensive delivery system

BJJ: Grappling

 

Excellent observation! I stand corrected.. Thank you Vortex! My mistake for racial profiling-LOL. I am also of mixed Asian heritage myself so even I get confused that we all look alike

 

I grew up on Bruce Lee, who did give the Westerners an "Asian Martial Arts Hero". In no way was I trying to disrespect Bruce Lee for bringing Kung Fu to the Western World. This was a very bold move on his part and he deserves all the respect from the 'Old Generation' to the upcoming 'New Generation' of martial artists.

 

In my young days I thought martial arts was all about physical strength, because that is all I knew --because that is all that was being taught to the general public. When I was shown the follies of all my youthful physical strength, I realized that I had to start from the beginning *AGAIN*. All the "Bruce Lee" strength was getting me nowhere.

 

Yes, JKD and others select forms of dynamic martial arts have an excellent delivery system! What is deceptive about SSTT is that the delivery system looks completely *LAME* and *FAKE*! I have no problems admitting this because this is what it looks like on our YouTube videos and in person when people see this for the first time or last time. This is what I thought when I first saw the SSTT, which looked even *WORSE* than our YouTube --a couple decades ago, give or take some years.

 

In the root core of SSTT, I couldn't see any delivery system even when I was getting hit.. I had no idea, how I was being hit? My head was spinning and my body was in total pain I was getting my @$$ kicked with NO DELIVERY SYSTEM which keeps me humble even to this day.

 

Thank you, Vortex for the compliment *BOWING WITH RESPECT* to anyone who has the dedication and fortitude to practice martial arts in his/her own way. I'm not even trying to be 'style specific' just so long you're practicing

 

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

[gendao]

Thank you, Vortex for the compliment *BOWING WITH RESPECT* to anyone who has the dedication and fortitude to practice martial arts in his/her own way. I'm not even trying to be 'style specific' just so long you're practicing

 

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

DEEP BOW to you! My comment there was merely trivia...but your useful knowledge and abilities here far exceed mine!

 

But you really have some Asian heritage? I would not have guessed!

ccN6pZumFOQ

Anyhow, suffice it to say that SSTT is clearly far superior to JKD, so I'm sure it transcends a lot of the whole "cat and mouse" game antics. If I was in LA, I'd definitely be signed up for your class!!!

 

In fact, I'd love to get Sifu Hata to Texas for a seminar, somehow, now that I think of it... What do you think would be the miminum attendance or cost we'd have to cover?

[portcraig]

Vortex, The photograph you posted is of Michael Denney (FiveElementTao) who is one of Sifu Hata's students and is an instructor of the the system. His website is at

www.spirittao.com

 

 

A photograph of Sifu Hata can be found on his own website at

http://www.sstt-institute.org/aboutus.html

Edited July 4, 2009 by portcraig

[enouch]

[enouch]

DEEP BOW to you! My comment there was merely trivia...but your useful knowledge and abilities here far exceed mine!

 

But you really have some Asian heritage? I would not have guessed!

ccN6pZumFOQ

Anyhow, suffice it to say that SSTT is clearly far superior to JKD, so I'm sure it transcends a lot of the whole "cat and mouse" game antics. If I was in LA, I'd definitely be signed up for your class!!!

 

In fact, I'd love to get Sifu Hata to Texas for a seminar, somehow, now that I think of it... What do you think would be the miminum attendance or cost we'd have to cover?

 

 

 

How is it clearly superior to JKD? The man he references in the video is Ma Shr Ching from the Bill Moyers special.Yet Brain Tracy has a baqua book detailing his encounter with the guy,saying ''he refused to demonstrate on me or anyone not a student.His qi Gung postures looked correct but...he required me to study with him first'' Kong jing or empty force needs the cooperation of the student how is this truly helpful in a life or death fight? Discerning intentions? Maybe.

 

My criteria [which comes from Bruce] is what if you come home and find your wife,parents or daughter all killed and the killer is there? will you be fearful then? How about if you're locked in a room with Shaquille O'neal type on p.c.b., do you have faith in your system or skills? Or you are thrown in prison and four or six guys who want to rape you? In that situation, mastery o mastery,where is my mastery? is all you can say.

[gendao]

^ Well, if I had to put money on it in a match between Bruce & Hata, my money's going on the guy with the nuclear hand strikes! It's kinda like rock beats scissors, even if it's Edward Scissorhands himself! And I'm a huge Bruce fanboi, but you have to admit that Hata/SSTT > Bruce/JKD. It's just on a whole 'nother level...

Vortex, The photograph you posted is of Michael Denney (FiveElementTao) who is one of Sifu Hata's students and is an instructor of the the system. His website is at

www.spirittao.com

A photograph of Sifu Hata can be found on his own website at

http://www.sstt-institute.org/aboutus.html

Ohh, my bad! Thanks for the correction, I had no idea that ssttinstitute = the actual Sifu Hata!

DEEP BOW DEEP BOW DEEP BOW!

 

What an even greater honor to chat with him, then! So insanely humble for a great master - that he fooled me as one of his own disciples!

 

Yea, seriously love your art, man! And would feel blessed to have a chance to learn some of it some day!

Edited July 4, 2009 by vortex

[ssttinstitute]

[enouch]

[ssttinstitute]

Thank you kind sir, I hope I have a open mind but an open mind like a open wound can be infected if it's too open.I am dust at youe feet! I live by the advice of Ray Kroc, the founder of Mc.Donald's''when you are green you grow when you ripen you rot'' so I possess an open mind but I also possess a secret decoder b.s. ring!

 

enouch, I see your icon and recogized it immediately from Heroes, Peter Petrelli. So you can never underestimate yourself, much like the character of Peter Petrelli. As the story goes, he thought himself to be a nobody.. only to find he had more combined powers than the other heroes to save the world.

 

enouch, you could be the Peter Petrelli in real life Just as Peter Petrelli opened himself to the forces within himself, he was able to adapt and take on any and all metaphysical forces others possessed. He became one of the most powerful Super Hero fighting against evil in "Heroes".

 

I have faith if you adapt and adjust, even without a decoder ring.. we can expect *GREAT* potential from you. I do not underestimate the power within you or anyone else on this forum

 

*PEACE*

 

http://www.sstt-institute.org/

Edited July 5, 2009 by ssttinstitute

[Pheurton Skeurto]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=7558&st=0

 

For the most part, thread is deece. Some wacko claims... but hey, this is the Internet, right?

[Magitek]

"There are lots of guys around the world that are lazy. They have big fat guts. They talk about chi power and things they can do, but don't believe it." - Bruce Lee