Myofascial Tensegrity and Zhan Zhuang

[sheng zhen]

Edited September 24, 2009 by sheng zhen

[rain]

"The body is in reality a tensegrity (Buckminister Fuller, NOT Castaneda) structure where all forces are evenly distributed through connective tissue."

BEAUtiful Zhengling! thanks

Edited June 19, 2009 by rain

[Josh Young]

Fuller stole the idea himself, much like Castaneda did later.

 

Have you every seen the tensegrity exercises by Castaneda's people?

It strikes me as relevant.

 

Of course what you write has great truth to it. I may disagree with minor details but the overt points of the article remain valid and are worth considering by any practitioner of internal arts.

[sheng zhen]

Fuller stole the idea himself, much like Castaneda did later.

 

Have you every seen the tensegrity exercises by Castaneda's people?

It strikes me as relevant.

 

Of course what you write has great truth to it. I may disagree with minor details but the overt points of the article remain valid and are worth considering by any practitioner of internal arts.

Oh but please dont disagree silently... dont forget we are at taobums!

 

Where did Fuller steal his ideas?

 

I dont see Castanedas exercises any more relevant to tensegrity than any other exercises just because he named it Tensegrity. Tensegrity means a balance between all tension forces. In youtube videos of Castanedas tensegrity there is a lot of tension and breathing, and maybe there is a balance. I dont know.

 

But that it has anything more to do with the actual BIOtensegrity than any other exercises(Yoga, qigong, Zhan Zhuang, aerobics, whatever) not true. So I said "NOT Castanedas" to try to crush this misunderstanding before it appeared.

Edited June 22, 2009 by sheng zhen

[stuzilla]

You may find the work of Dr Ida Rolfe (PhD Biochemistry) interesting. She developed techniques to relax fascial tissue so that structural reallignment could take place in individuals who had unbalanced/strained bodies. She called it structural integration.

[longrhythm]

Tensegrity applied to the coccyx and femurs explains perfectly why a strong pc muscle aids in walking, squatting and posture.

[sheng zhen]

You may find the work of Dr Ida Rolfe (PhD Biochemistry) interesting. She developed techniques to relax fascial tissue so that structural reallignment could take place in individuals who had unbalanced/strained bodies. She called it structural integration.

Yes, absolutely. Im working with a method that evolved from Ida Rolfs method, Rolfing. Rolfing is painful, but the method I do(KMI - www.anatomytrains.com) is not. Simply because we have discovered that fascia melts with slow movment and contracts with sudden movement. Much like a non-newtonian fluid(search youtube for cool videos). So we say "speed is the enemy"! ...when related to bodywork.

 

Structural Integration is trying to release fascial blocages so the body enters its natural alignment to gravity. Which is the Zhan Zhuang position. Structural Integration has a perfect synergy with Zhan Zhuang.

[minkus]

This is indeed extremely interesting

[sasblamthanb]

Great posts. Thanks.

 

btw Check out Scott Sonnen - very grounded, applied biotensegrity

http://www.intu-flow.com/

[sheng zhen]

Great posts. Thanks.

 

btw Check out Scott Sonnen - very grounded, applied biotensegrity

http://www.intu-flow.com/

Very cool movements!

 

I do Xing Shen Zhuang which has a distance resemblance to the Scott Sonnon video. It is not so much fast movements, but it does open up all the joints and especially the spine.

 

I did an anlysis of XSZ and Anatomy Trains and it revealed that XSZ is a complete workout of all the 12 Anatomy Trains Meridians. It even has an exercise directly related to the complex Spiral Line. The whole line! Not just parts of it. I am very inspired to see that age old exercises are confirmed by top notch modern discoveries.

 

The Anatomy Trains people have embraced yoga allready, but I dont think taoist yoga will ever get the same recogntion. Even though I believe the more dynamic taoist yoga is better for the fascial structures than the mechanical stretching found in popular yoga.

[sasblamthanb]

[sheng zhen]

Edited June 30, 2009 by sheng zhen

[Creation]

Lots of questions I dont know the answer to here. I haven studied the fascia in detail. Yet! But I'm sure fascia will be revealed as a LOT more important than we currently believe.

 

I believe Zhan Zhuang actually is a way to implement the KMI/Structural Integration principles without the hands on fascia work. But Xing Shen Zhuang is even more directly activating the principles. And Im sure the methods you mentioned do that as well. I dont know anything about Scott Sonnon or Z Health other than what I saw from the other link a little further up this thread. Anyways, to do hands on fascia work enhances the Zhan Zhuang and qi gong and vice versa. The people who have qi-flow in their body responds a lot faster to fascial changes. They are a lot easier to work with than t.ex. bodybuilders or couch-potatoes.

 

To work with the joints in relation to neural mapping sounds interesting! Do you want to explain a little more about that?

 

By the way! On the Anatomy Trains site there is a 30 minute video for sale showing video of the fascia live in action! Its mindblowing!

Hi Sheng Zhen.

 

Xing Shen Zhuang sounds interesting. Is it done standing, sitting, or both? How dynamic is it (i.e. how much holding of postures is there, how quick are the movements, etc.)? How many movements and/or postures are there and how long does it take to do them all? Where did you learn it?

 

Thanks,

Tyler

Edited July 1, 2009 by Creation

[sheng zhen]

Hi Sheng Zhen.

 

Xing Shen Zhuang sounds interesting. Is it done standing, sitting, or both? How dynamic is it (i.e. how much holding of postures is there, how quick are the movements, etc.)? How many movements and/or postures are there and how long does it take to do them all? Where did you learn it?

 

Thanks,

Tyler

Hello Creation.

 

XSZ is done standing. It is a "zhuang". It has both dynamic and static exercises. The more slowly the movements are the better, just like other qigong and dao yin. So one real good session lasts up to two hours. My practice lasts mostly 30-40 minutes...

 

I learned it in Sweden: http://www.qigonginstitutet.se/index.aspx

[sasblamthanb]

Edited July 1, 2009 by sasblamthanb

[sheng zhen]

Edited July 1, 2009 by sheng zhen

[Aetherous]

Good topic, man.

 

XSZ is awesome. I always wonder how they figured out some of those exercises, since some are very precise in healing the spine (correlate exactly with some osteopathic self exercises).

 

The more slowly the movements are the better

 

Well, there is a lot of research out there on muscle physiology and stretching which says that it'd actually be healthier for the tissue to go through the exercises in a medium paced way. It'd be more beneficial to just go through the whole routine multiple times throughout the day, than do the whole thing once super slowly.

 

It's good to research on something like pubmed on your own, and come to your own conclusions. Just type in "stretching" and I'm sure thousands of articles will come up!

 

Not saying you're "wrong" by the way! Just another opinion, and I'm hoping it helps!

[sheng zhen]

XSZ is awesome. I always wonder how they figured out some of those exercises, since some are very precise in healing the spine (correlate exactly with some osteopathic self exercises).

Yes, I see XSZ like home-chiropractics

 

But regarding slow vs. medium-slow, my experience say slow is better. I do it reeeeally slow in the weekends, when I have time to rest afterwards. To stand two hours in strange and challenging positions is not easy or pleasant. But when I do it real slow its always a lot more pleasant afterwards. Its feels a lot better for the body and the feeling of a good and slow session can last for weeks.

 

I think the slow movements activates the proprioceptors more and therefore connects body-mind(xing - shen) more. Especially if its done with closed eyes. We get time to let consciousness enter every specific area the postures are activating. And the whole rest of the body gets time to relax.

 

It might be that for stretching muscles its better with medium-slow. But if we also want the qigong effect I believe real-slow is better. What do you think?

[Aetherous]

Well personal experience beats theory...so what works for you is best. I haven't experimented with it enough to say for sure...but it does seem that for me the neck exercises were better when done at a not-slow pace. I don't think it's natural for the neck to be stretched...just natural to move it. That is just my experience.

[sheng zhen]

Well personal experience beats theory...so what works for you is best. I haven't experimented with it enough to say for sure...but it does seem that for me the neck exercises were better when done at a not-slow pace. I don't think it's natural for the neck to be stretched...just natural to move it. That is just my experience.

Yes, there are many ways to do it. And all have their own benefits.

[sheng zhen]

Tensegrity applied to the coccyx and femurs explains perfectly why a strong pc muscle aids in walking, squatting and posture.

Hello longrythm.

 

Do you want to explain a little more about this? Why is the PC muscle so important?

[shenchi]

[Creation]

sheng zhen.

 

Does the qigonginstitutet.se stuff come from Prof. Wang, and if so, through David Verdesi? Do you know if the Zhineng Gong stuff is an adaptation of Prof. Wang's stuff, or is it a completely different lineage? In what way is the Zhineng Gong stuff simplified, and OTOH what is it about, say, Verdisi's stuff that makes it so much more powerful?

 

 

Shenchi,

 

All this stuff about opening and closing the joints and lengthening the soft tissues is bewildering to me, as I have no kinesthetic reference point for it. You sound like you have a great method to help people learn. If I am ever in Maryland I'd love to take a class . In the mean time, do you know of any simple exercises that I can try on my own to help me understand this stuff?

 

 

Thanks

-Tyler

[shenchi]

Tyler,

It's hard to teach with words alone since most people arn't used to feeling and moving their bodies in a way that makes the fascia noticable. That being said I will try to give to a simple exercise that, if done right, will give you the feel of what moving fascia feels like. The exercise is a modified leg stretch, universal to many systems but done in a way that lengthens the fascia and thus in turn makes room for the muscles, ligaments, and tendons to stretch in reaction to the lengthening.

 

Ok, so start seated on the floor with one leg extended forward toes up, and the other pulled back with the heal toward the crotch and the lateral side of the leg on the floor. In other words a simple single forward straight leg stretch position. Now bending forward take the hold of the toes of the outstretched leg with the arm of the same side. Now gently lean forward with the intension of putting your forhead on the outstretched knee. only bend forward as far as you can with out the muscles of the legs tightening, especially behind the knee. This is not a muscular stretch so it is best for the muscles to be as relaxed as possible. Now take the other hand and place it directly on the back of the knee of the outstretched leg. Palpate around for tension especially in the tendons and attachments in the back of the knee. Taking that same hand gently place it on the tense area on the back of the knee. If you have no tense areas than place it where the hamstrings attach to the back of the middle of the knee. Using your fingertip pads to gently scoop the skin behind the knee. You want to scoop the skin in a gently way like pulling up tight socks made of a very thin but stretchy material. You want to feel like your sucken into the flesh just below the skin but right on the surface of the muscle. You want to feel like you are moving a loose lable off a soup can. If done right you will feel the stretch deep in the knee and has the potential to stretch al the way into the soul of the foot. Keep gently pulling the fascia back towards the thigh. Relaxing and breathing long deep breaths the whole time. if you can totaly relax the muscles of the leg and still keep the toes pointed up then use both hands to scoop the fascia. Pulling it back with one hand and when it can go no farther hold your place with the other hand by sinking into the flesh and not allowing the tension in the fascia to go slack. Fascia is very slow to stretch and sometimes it feels like your hands have moved a foot and they have barely moved an inch, this is ok. It's slow but when you get it warmed up it gets going easier. When you have it right it will feel like riding a wave as it stretches. You may also experience some heat and a little uncomfortableness. If the skin starts to burn to much then it means your skin is dry and you should use just a little oil or lotion to lubricate, but not much or else you will be working the muscles and not the Fascia. Again the stretches can take a while so being in a pose for 5 minutes is not out of the norm, but it is a working pose as it keeps opening. If you feel that the fascia is stuck, in that you don't feel a stretch, then slowly and gently engage and relax repeatedly the mucles that the hand is working on. This will initiate the movement of the kinesthetic chain and only needs to be done to get it moving. If it freezes up again just use the same engage/relax process to get it going again. Once you feel as though you can stretch no further then go to the other leg. If you feel the stretch is moving fast and you keep your grip then deepen your pull on the fascia. Also be prepared for a huge endorphine dump as doing that type of stretch can cause a large amout of endorphines to release, I suggest you take a minute to enjoy the high before the next stretch. Also taaaaake yoooour tiiiiiime. Fascia is slow moving and you need to be gentle and patient. I find the less I try the more results I get. I can say that if you can do this technique right (which is hard from text alone) you will vastly improve you flexibility, especially if you can learn to apply this concept to all of your stretches.

 

I hope that is helpful. Until next time.

 

Peace & Tao

Shenchi

 

sheng zhen.

 

Does the qigonginstitutet.se stuff come from Prof. Wang, and if so, through David Verdesi? Do you know if the Zhineng Gong stuff is an adaptation of Prof. Wang's stuff, or is it a completely different lineage? In what way is the Zhineng Gong stuff simplified, and OTOH what is it about, say, Verdisi's stuff that makes it so much more powerful?

Shenchi,

 

All this stuff about opening and closing the joints and lengthening the soft tissues is bewildering to me, as I have no kinesthetic reference point for it. You sound like you have a great method to help people learn. If I am ever in Maryland I'd love to take a class . In the mean time, do you know of any simple exercises that I can try on my own to help me understand this stuff?

Thanks

-Tyler

[sheng zhen]

I also teach a style of Tao Yin that I developed that focuses on the opening and lengthening of the fascia and employs self massage to help fascilitate the opening of the fascia. I find this creates more of an understanding of the kinesthetic chain and opens the joints in a much deeper way than just stretching the muscles.

What you write is very interesting Shenchi! (refering also to your other post here)

 

I would love to learn more about your Dao Yin. Do you have any written information or videos or anything?

Edited July 5, 2009 by sheng zhen