Why is science having such a hard time finding chi?

[Ramon25]

No, what I feel in my bai hui is not increased circulation. For example, I'm sitting at my computer. If I focus on my stomach, I can feel it. That's just imagination I would say. If I focus on my pointer finger, I can feel sensations in it. That's just imagination, even though I physically feel it. Where your attention goes your mind goes too.. not necessarily only this "Qi follows Yi" although that is written in ancient texts.

 

For example, you have a stomach ache. If you focus on the stomach ache, and not on letting it pass, or trying some other activity, it likely will seem worse or go away. Just like your mommy telling you to "not focus on it".

 

Very gentle movements make your circulation feel stronger? Of course! Here is an example in my own life: I have very poor circulation. I am in excellent physical health from lifting weights and working out, but still usually have cold hands (even in summer). If I sit quietly, just letting my breath become natural, my hands will get quite warm. This is focusing on just natural, consistent breathing.

 

To me, relaxed breathing is the major factor causing the warmth and circulation, not Qi.

Note: I practice Qigong, and I feel the "Qi", but I think metaphysical concepts are somewhat inaccurate.

11:33, truthfully I don't know. I've never experienced it, except for healing myself -- therefore consider it the placebo effect and I am currently a "non-believer".

 

Of course, I wouldn't keep on practicing it if I didn't think it had potential. I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of it.

 

Dude are you saying that feeling my hand by focusing on it is my imagination?

Uh there are actual things happeing and the nerves around that area are firing. Thats not imagination that is FOCUS. Cold hands can be other things besides circulation. I also said THAT MUCH stronger as to feel such a POWERFUL flow. As a vegatarian which i think you are correct? It can make that cold hands thing worse. You need some animal fat! Why doesnt some medication work, if things like this are a placebo? I know people who had a disease, went back and forth between treatments and nothing. then they see an acupuntureist and BOOM healed the NEXT DAY! Why didnt the placebo effect kick in for those poeple with regular treatments? becuase maybe there is more to it than that.

[DaoChild]

Dude are you saying that feeling my hand by focusing on it is my imagination?

Uh there are actual things happeing and the nerves around that area are firing. Thats not imagination that is FOCUS. Cold hands can be other things besides circulation. I also said THAT MUCH stronger as to feel such a POWERFUL flow. As a vegatarian which i think you are correct? It can make that cold hands thing worse. You need some animal fat! Why doesnt some medication work, if things like this are a placebo? I know people who had a disease, went back and forth between treatments and nothing. then they see an acupuntureist and BOOM healed the NEXT DAY! Why didnt the placebo effect kick in for those poeple with regular treatments? becuase maybe there is more to it than that.

 

Yes, feeling your hand by focusing on it is your imagination.

 

I'm not completely a vegetarian, I eat meat every few days.

 

Why doesn't some medication work? That's like saying why doesn't acupuncture fix everything -- if it did, it would have much more publicity and would be used all over the country! It's not.

 

And what are you referring to, concerning medicine not working? Obviously there are complex interactions between molecules (look up "Absolute contraindications"). You aren't going to use aspirin and expect cancer to be healed. Again, citing anecdotal evidence is not really doing anything for the discussion. I know people on both sides of the equation who have/have not been fixed by Allopathic/alternative medicines. I'm a Bio student at a major US university and want to go into Alternative medicine. It's a very very big decision for me, and I won't make it lightly.

 

I believe the placebo effect exists, but isn't always that strong like you mention. Take a placebo, and your cancer probably will not go into remission.

 

Have you seen the multitude of studies done on acupuncture and Sham acupuncture?

From what I've read in the literature, Acupuncture has been slightly effective in pain reduction, and in increasing fertility. That's all I've read so far, but haven't been following it as of late.

 

Unfortunately, acupuncture studied objectively really hasn't been super effective (or as effective as it claims to be). Keep in mind I want to go into alternative medicine! I know many things work, and I Believe in preventative medicine as the highest of high. But I don't want to spend $150,000 going to school, and then devoting my life to something that doesn't work. Note that i'm not saying whether or not acupuncture works or Qi exists, but studied objectively it hasn't been a cure-all for patients. Not that western medicine has either.

 

Acupuncture vs. Sham acupuncture for pain relief in Fibromyalgia

http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/143/1/10.pdf

 

Acupuncture vs. Sham acupuncture for smoking cessation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10796466

 

Acupuncture vs. Sham acupuncture for Lower back pain (A very common trial)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11932074

 

 

Note: And I'm mostly anti-allopathic medicine in my own life. I'm totally for alternative therapies, but there's a lot of myth / misconception / wives tales / anecdotal evidence. I've taken 1 painkiller in my entire life (22 years, not that long I suppose), the day I got my wisdom teeth pulled. I believe the body is usually given everything it needs to fix itself, so I try to support that as much as possible. But in the exploration of things that are much harder to understand, I enjoy testing them as close to "scientifically" (aka reproducible results) as possible.

Edited June 24, 2009 by DaoChild

[Ramon25]

Yes, feeling your hand by focusing on it is your imagination.

 

I'm not completely a vegetarian, I eat meat every few days.

 

Why doesn't some medication work? That's like saying why doesn't acupuncture fix everything -- if it did, it would have much more publicity and would be used all over the country! It's not.

 

And what are you referring to, concerning medicine not working? Obviously there are complex interactions between molecules (look up "Absolute contraindications"). You aren't going to use aspirin and expect cancer to be healed. Again, citing anecdotal evidence is not really doing anything for the discussion. I know people on both sides of the equation who have/have not been fixed by Allopathic/alternative medicines. I'm a Bio student at a major US university and want to go into Alternative medicine. It's a very very big decision for me, and I won't make it lightly.

 

I believe the placebo effect exists, but isn't always that strong like you mention. Take a placebo, and your cancer probably will not go into remission.

 

Have you seen the multitude of studies done on acupuncture and Sham acupuncture?

From what I've read in the literature, Acupuncture has been slightly effective in pain reduction, and in increasing fertility. That's all I've read so far, but haven't been following it as of late.

 

Unfortunately, acupuncture studied objectively really hasn't been super effective (or as effective as it claims to be). Keep in mind I want to go into alternative medicine! I know many things work, and I Believe in preventative medicine as the highest of high. But I don't want to spend $150,000 going to school, and then devoting my life to something that doesn't work. Note that i'm not saying whether or not acupuncture works or Qi exists, but studied objectively it hasn't been a cure-all for patients. Not that western medicine has either.

 

Acupuncture vs. Sham acupuncture for pain relief in Fibromyalgia

http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/143/1/10.pdf

 

Acupuncture vs. Sham acupuncture for smoking cessation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10796466

 

Acupuncture vs. Sham acupuncture for Lower back pain (A very common trial)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11932074

Note: And I'm mostly anti-allopathic medicine in my own life. I'm totally for alternative therapies, but there's a lot of myth / misconception / wives tales / anecdotal evidence. I've taken 1 painkiller in my entire life (22 years, not that long I suppose), the day I got my wisdom teeth pulled. I believe the body is usually given everything it needs to fix itself, so I try to support that as much as possible. But in the exploration of things that are much harder to understand, I enjoy testing them as close to "scientifically" (aka reproducible results) as possible.

 

Man my hand is there and I can feel it. The nerves light up when we do. how the hell is that imagination? The ancients use to speak of a THOUSAND accupressure points. So How do we know that they are not affecting one of the undocumented ones?

[Ramon25]

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=1142259

http://www.ortho.lsuhsc.edu/Faculty/Marino...cupuncture.html

 

this one is awesome

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.php

It is interesting to note the importance the of connective tissue in chi theory. Maybe its is bio electricity and the nervous system. like scott sonnons stuff-stimulating the nervous ystem and affecting the muscles and connective tissue could have effects on these theoretical structurs and opening channels. Also it could be that these structures (rougly correspond to organs)

 

 

http://www.camresearch.net/showabstract.php?pmid=12467083

some stuff

 

With the hree dantiens i am still in shock about that. There is a LITERAL brain in our gut. There is a LITERAL brain in our heart and there is a liertal brain well in our head. This could all be a series of electrical networks and magnatism ect... If so it would all make so much sense...

[exorcist_1699]

We look more intelligent and powerful over nature than ancient people only because we organized ourselves well through material means in a collective way , yet when separated from nature and being situated in wilderness , lack of most modern material means, as individuals , we are as stupid and fragile as a bug. Ancient people definitely survive in wilderness better than us .

 

Ancient people also had much more time in dealing with nothingness/ emptiness before their eyes in free time ,say in a long winter after all agricultural jobs were finished . Their simple life made some of them good at handling emptiness better than we modern people ; in fact most of us are annoyed by it , and are always forced to have something occupied , to kill time whenever we are free..

 

Some people may argue that baihui (" 百會" ) or qihai (" 氣海"), those acupuncture points are always there, we just insert a needle into those spots skillfully then we get the qi, why saying that it not measurable? I have to say: based on the basic TCM thoery, qi running in the meridians all come from a place called men meng("命門") / dantian, yet dantian is even a place not existing or felt without our mind focusing on it , let alone measuring it . Qi running in the meridians is only the tip of a huge iceberg , seeing it does not necessarily mean you can measure a much immense stuff underwater .

 

 

If we further related qi to Shen , then we get a worse picture ; let me raise an metaphor :

 

Some 2D " creatures" once discovered that a strange object ("qi" ) appeared in their 2D world , which was in fact a cross-section of a 3D creature when it was passing through it . Although it was a phenomenon happening repeatedly and could be observed from time to time , do you think , those 2D "creatures" can understand what happen before their eyes ? It seems , no matter how hard the 2D " creatures " think , how much data they collect , how many instruments from their world they use , their effort are doomed to be fruitless .

 

What is lacked unfortunately is another dimension : Shen, that they are totally ignorant in dealing with.

Edited June 25, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[DaoChild]

\ Maybe its is bio electricity and the nervous system.

 

If it were some kind of bio electricity it could be easily measured.

[Jakara]

I just wanted to add that Daochild is correct in stating that you can only feel some sensations when you place your attention on it. The brain can invent feelings that aren't there. Evidence for this is supplied by those with "phantom limbs" who have lost limbs but can still "feel" them as being present.

 

Another interesting phenomena is that humans can predict exatcly where their hands are in space even if their eyes are closed. If you close your eyes and wave your hands about somewhere then you will know exactly where they are without looking. You can feel where they are.

 

Last is a phenomena known as "Sensory adaptation". The brain has so much information sent to it from all over the body that it chooses to ignore or suppress the majority of sensations that it is familiar with and only concentrate on what it deems as more important ones.

For example, when you are sitting in your chair on your computer or walking along the street your brain largely ignores the feeling of your ass to the chair or how your feet feel in your shoes. Processing that information at a concsious level all the time would take away valuable brain power from the task you are currently performing.

 

The brain does funny things to our senses, and whilst that doesn't mean everyone is imagining chi feelings, it has to be conceded as a posibility.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Jakara

[agharta]

To all the chi nay-sayers:

 

I studied a very serious system of closed-door martial arts for several years. I had a black belt in Okinawan karate before I started, and trust me when I say that, if my karate black belt was a kindergarten graduation diploma, then the closed-door system was like studying for a doctorate. It is serious, serious, serious business.

 

One day, my teacher decided to play with my mind and/or teach me a lesson. He did a quick little qigong exercise, then he pulled up his sleeve and said "grab my arm". I tried to grab his arm. Well, THAT didn't work. My hands got about 8 inches away from his forearm, and then suddenly, without warning, I was flying across the room. I landed about 6-8 feet away, screaming and holding my stomach. He never moved the whole time. I had no idea that was even POSSIBLE, let alone that he himself was able to do such a thing. What threw me across the room? The power of suggestion? No. He didn't tell me what would happen. I had never heard from him or any of the other students about such a thing.

 

He also told me about an incident where a highly-skilled, 10 year+ student of his attacked him too fast. He couldn't get out of the way in time, so he used a similar non-physical technique/method. He said the student's forearm suddenly starting spouting blood from dozens of tiny holes, without any physical contact. They had to clean the carpet afterward, the blood went everywhere. Again, I ask you, what put those holes in that student's arm? The power of suggestion? Doubtful.

 

I'm not saying anything about what chi actually is or isn't, because I don't know. For dang sure, though, people who think all these special powers are not real (at least in some cases) are deluded. Highly deluded.

Edited June 25, 2009 by agharta

[DaoChild]

To all the chi nay-sayers:

 

I studied a very serious system of closed-door martial arts for several years. I had a black belt in Okinawan karate before I started, and trust me when I say that, if my karate black belt was a kindergarten graduation diploma, then the closed-door system was like studying for a doctorate. It is serious, serious, serious business.

 

One day, my teacher decided to play with my mind and/or teach me a lesson. He did a quick little qigong exercise, then he pulled up his sleeve and said "grab my arm". I tried to grab his arm. Well, THAT didn't work. My hands got about 8 inches away from his forearm, and then suddenly, without warning, I was flying across the room. I landed about 6-8 feet away, screaming and holding my stomach. He never moved the whole time. I had no idea that was even POSSIBLE, let alone that he himself was able to do such a thing. What threw me across the room? The power of suggestion? No. He didn't tell me what would happen. I had never heard from him or any of the other students about such a thing.

 

He also told me about an incident where a highly-skilled, 10 year+ student of his attacked him too fast. He couldn't get out of the way in time, so he used a similar non-physical technique/method. He said the student's forearm suddenly starting spouting blood from dozens of tiny holes, without any physical contact. They had to clean the carpet afterward, the blood went everywhere. Again, I ask you, what put those holes in that student's arm? The power of suggestion? Doubtful.

 

I'm not saying anything about what chi actually is or isn't, because I don't know. For dang sure, though, people who think all these special powers are not real (at least in some cases) are deluded. Highly deluded.

 

I believe you, or perhaps I WANT TO believe you. I simply cannot because I haven't experienced it.

 

But I suppose I will soon enough -- I'm moving to Beijing in one year to investigate (for as many years as it takes me).

 

I've also heard that story (like Okinawan karate) in a very similar way from Bruce Frantzis.

 

Additionally: I'm not a Qi nay sayer! I practice two hours of Qigong daily, because I want to see if It produces any "real" effects beyond just sensations. Is that not scientific, while also devoted?

 

If it doesn't do anything, why continue -- right? If those "powers" did nothing for your teacher, he never would use them or have learned them -- right?

Edited June 25, 2009 by DaoChild

[11:33]

Additionally: I'm not a Qi nay sayer! I practice two hours of Qigong daily, because I want to see if It produces any "real" effects beyond just sensations. Is that not scientific, while also devoted?

 

If it doesn't do anything, why continue -- right? If those "powers" did nothing for your teacher, he never would use them or have learned them -- right?

 

Learning on your own, don't expect any miracles.

 

Personal training form a master can change your opinion very quickly.

[agharta]

 

 

If it doesn't do anything, why continue -- right? If those "powers" did nothing for your teacher, he never would use them or have learned them -- right?

 

Oh, he definitely has skills. I'm just not so sure he really needs them. LOL

 

Seriously, the man lives in rural North Carolina. How many high-level martial arts masters (of the evil kind) is he going to have to fight to the death, on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, etc. basis?

 

It's just overkill. You don't need a Lamborghini to go get groceries at the local supermarket. A Ford Taurus (or even a bicycle, in good weather) will also do the job. But whatever. I just don't see the point in developing that high level of skill, if you will never encounter the kinds of people you would have to use it on. Besides which, I'm really good at talking my way out of dangerous situations. I am a charmer, so they tell me. LOL Why whip ass, when I can charm it? LOL

[11:33]

Oh, he definitely has skills. I'm just not so sure he really needs them. LOL

 

Seriously, the man lives in rural North Carolina. How many high-level martial arts masters (of the evil kind) is he going to have to fight to the death, on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, etc. basis?

 

It's just overkill. You don't need a Lamborghini to go get groceries at the local supermarket. A Ford Taurus (or even a bicycle, in good weather) will also do the job. But whatever. I just don't see the point in developing that high level of skill, if you will never encounter the kinds of people you would have to use it on. Besides which, I'm really good at talking my way out of dangerous situations. I am a charmer, so they tell me. LOL Why whip ass, when I can charm it? LOL

DaoChild,

In my system of chikung/kungfu, the 'powers' come along with the normal practice. So you may be improving your health and mental freshness, etc etc and one day you realize that if someone hits you with a baseball bat to the back you don't feel any pain. It just develops on its own. (not me, but some fellow students I know)

[DaoChild]

DaoChild,

In my system of chikung/kungfu, the 'powers' come along with the normal practice. So you may be improving your health and mental freshness, etc etc and one day you realize that if someone hits you with a baseball bat to the back you don't feel any pain. It just develops on its own. (not me, but some fellow students I know)

 

I totally understand. Like I said, I recently began practicing Qigong multiple hours daily.

 

I won't need proof of powers if it cures me of Asthma in the next year or so.

 

Powers aren't necessarily desirable to me, but I want an understanding of how I can apply it [internal power] to many facets of life (assuming it exists.. once again something I want to experience). I want to know how to use it to heal, to fight, to gain understanding, and so on.

 

Often, like you mentioned, the easiest way is to find an instructor who has such a thing and can demonstrate it in some way.

 

I wouldn't mind getting the crap kicked out of me for being a doubter, not that I'm going to be challenging someone anytime soon. But humans learn by experience -- no? That's all I'm seeking.

[Wayfarer64]

Why is science having such a hard time finding chi? I mean, I can feel it! So why can't they find it? It's so weird to me.

 

Anyone know?

 

OK I'll bite!- Is it because those who apply their "expertise" in these investigations have not first extracted their heads from their butts?

[nac]

To all the chi nay-sayers:

 

I studied a very serious system of closed-door martial arts for several years. I had a black belt in Okinawan karate before I started, and trust me when I say that, if my karate black belt was a kindergarten graduation diploma, then the closed-door system was like studying for a doctorate. It is serious, serious, serious business.

 

One day, my teacher decided to play with my mind and/or teach me a lesson. He did a quick little qigong exercise, then he pulled up his sleeve and said "grab my arm". I tried to grab his arm. Well, THAT didn't work. My hands got about 8 inches away from his forearm, and then suddenly, without warning, I was flying across the room. I landed about 6-8 feet away, screaming and holding my stomach. He never moved the whole time. I had no idea that was even POSSIBLE, let alone that he himself was able to do such a thing. What threw me across the room? The power of suggestion? No. He didn't tell me what would happen. I had never heard from him or any of the other students about such a thing.

 

He also told me about an incident where a highly-skilled, 10 year+ student of his attacked him too fast. He couldn't get out of the way in time, so he used a similar non-physical technique/method. He said the student's forearm suddenly starting spouting blood from dozens of tiny holes, without any physical contact. They had to clean the carpet afterward, the blood went everywhere. Again, I ask you, what put those holes in that student's arm? The power of suggestion? Doubtful.

 

I'm not saying anything about what chi actually is or isn't, because I don't know. For dang sure, though, people who think all these special powers are not real (at least in some cases) are deluded. Highly deluded.

(A Fox Chicago newscast about a karate instructor who knocks people out without even touching them. Notice that Stephan Bonnar is one of the Carlson Gracie jiu-jitsu students who is apparently immune to the deadly technique.)

 

(a Kiai Master offers a 5000 dollar challenge that he can beat any MMA fighter. Too bad for him because his techniques doesn't affect the MMA fighter)

 

I dunno, maybe these guys just happened to be deluded frauds. Fun fact: Did you know that entire dental surgeries can be performed under hypnosis without anesthetic?

 

PS. Watch this if you feel like a laugh:

 

>But THIS guy, he might be for real!

 

PPS. Sorry for the raw skepticism. Could you please report back if that bleeding thing ever happens to you? I'm really interested. Thanks. _/\_

Edited June 25, 2009 by nac

[DaoChild]

Nac,

 

There are way more frauds out there looking to make money. That doesn't discount the possibility of the real deal.

 

BTW: THe video was quite funny One of my missions while I head to china is to experience "real" fajin.

Edited June 25, 2009 by DaoChild

[Tokoyo Tama]

The above cited fybromyalgia study, and why westerners studying eastern medicine can be hilarious...

 

http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/143/1/10.pdf

 

generally seems like a valid study, but the limitations are significant. I'm also pointing this out as I wonder how significant anyone who knows more about acupuncture than myself considers this limitation.

 

"Limitations: A prescription of acupuncture at fixed points may differ from acupuncture administered in clinical settings, in which therapy is individualized and often combined with herbal supplementation and other adjunctive measures. A usual-care comparison group was not studied."

 

 

Didn't read all the cited studies, so maybe other cited studies did not have this limitation. Seemed philosophically interesting as on of the most cited differences between western and eastern medical practices is the west treats diseases, the east treats patients.

[nac]

Nac,

 

There are way more frauds out there looking to make money. That doesn't discount the possibility of the real deal.

I never said that.

 

BTW: THe video was quite funny One of my missions while I head to china is to experience "real" fajin.

Be careful what you wish for.