Running into walls again....ARGH!

[Lucky7Strikes]

I know that this topic has be done over time and time again. A lot of you are probably sick of Buddhism vs. Taoism, vs. Advaita stuff. But I am in need of guidance because I've been running into serious walls during meditation lately while pondering over all this emptiness business. So here it is:

 

Dependent Origination states that all things that arise are dependent on the rising of everything else, hence they are all empty of inherent self existence. So there is no beginning and no end. No self, no suffering, etc. Yet the experience of everything is very real even if its nature is "illusory"...

 

So how can there be anything called Nirvana, cessation of suffering, cessation from the cycle of birth and death....???? How can anything truly "cease" when cessation is dependent on conditions itself.

 

I am stuck in the nihilistic sense of...the wheel keeps spinning on its own accord...whose to stop it when every part of my being is spinning with it anyway?

 

The Way waxes and wanes, creates and destroys, rises and ceases, and so am I to simply laugh at the absurdity of all phenomena and my helpless sense of existence within it?

 

My belief is usually that when one has become a totally selfless entity, free from desires, attachments, ignorance...that compassion will become one's true nature, and that the virtue of the Way will manifest accordingly. But I keep running into this existential wall time and time again......AGH!!

Edited June 20, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[forestofclarity]

Lucky,

 

First off, what is your practice? It is important, because different practices will approach these things differently.

 

Second, do you have a teacher?

Edited June 20, 2009 by forestofemptiness

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

This is one of the big reasons the Mahayana Buddhists switched to calling it enlightenment instead. All of the dependent origination, sunyata stuff was built up and elucidated by Nagarjuna, the founder of the Mahayana School, so yeah, you are going to see less of a focus on Nirvana and more on enlightenment the further you get from Theravada.

 

In Mahayana, you are right, there is no true cessation. In fact, depending on how you read the pali cannon, it is not really there either. The Buddha refused to talk about paranirvana (after death). The implication is that he is not simply "gone," though.

[seadog]

I truly believe that nobody can answer these questions,except for you. One of the great attributes of meditation is the ability it can give us to have space.The space to watch ideas come and go.If we can work out were these ideas of nirvana,cessation,independent origination etc come from and were they go to.Well let me know when you find out.

[Sloppy Zhang]

One of the things that I realized pretty early on (which saved me a lot of headaches... .though I DO give myself headaches pondering OTHER things.... anyway) was there there's just no way to rationalize it.

 

You can't say, "well this says this and that means that therefore this has to be this way. Even though I can't experience it that way just yet, this is what it must be and it's what I will experience once I reach a high enough level." Then tailor your practice and expecting to arrive at the same thing you rationalized.

 

First of all, you shouldn't put those expectations on your practice. When that happens you're just trying to force an abstract concept into some little box, and then you might miss out on awesome thing that might be outside your box, however open you think your box might be. Not to mention, when you don't have expectations, you can never be disappointed! (that was the slacker in me talking )

 

Instead of expectations, try having "aspirations". Whatever the truth/answer/reality/etc may be, "aspire" to find out what it is. It doesn't matter if you find it or not, because then you'll never fail your expectation. If it happens great, if not, oh well. Well maybe "aspire" may be too strong a word as well....

 

And second, if you can rationally arrive at some answer (and by rationally I mean using your brain to think things through), then the intellectuals of the world would have arrived at the truth centuries ago. It's painfully obvious that you can't find the answer that way, and it can be painful because you read about all the philosophers and how they can't explain things, painful because you spend a lifetime studying physics only to see all the rules break apart when it comes to black holes or some complicated quantum theory, or because you yourself try to sit and figure it all out in your head and it just gives you a headache.

 

Just let it all go, do whatever practice is in line with you.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[de_paradise]

Emptiness is a method, because when the mind is still, alchemical processes can happen (faster) Although the mind at the beginning is not nearly "empty", just the effort alone to get closer to the Tao is enough for qi and Kundalini energies to function to help you towards the Tao, and slowly the physical body will evolve, consciousness will evolve. Whether the ulitmate goal enlightenment, has some kind of pat rational explaination from your point of view, should not be so important as the possibility of attainment. They are just terms. Egyptians used glyphs and pictures to show the same process, pictures explain more and dont invite debate. Theres plenty of scholarly Buddhism out in the bookshelves and youtube if that floats your boat. But its like debating about a pie versus making a pie.

[Dainin]

But I am in need of guidance because I've been running into serious walls during meditation lately while pondering over all this emptiness business.

 

If you are pondering, you are not meditating.

[forestofclarity]

Not if you're practicing certain Buddhist meditation.

 

The seven factors of enlightenment are:

 

1. Mindfulness (sati)

2. Keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya)

3. Energy (viriya)

4. Rapture or happiness (piti)

5. Calm (passaddhi)

6. Concentration (samadhi)

7. Equanimity (upekkha)

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...eel001.html#n-3

 

If you are pondering, you are not meditating.

Edited June 21, 2009 by forestofemptiness

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Edited June 21, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[forestofclarity]

Indeed. This is why it is good to find out what one is practicing first.

If this is the case, than he is probably practicing Theravada Buddhism. In that case he need to make sure that he practices the Right View step of the Eightfold Path by putting aside his concerns about the other paths and even the other vehicles if they are causing him trouble or disturbing his calm.

Edited June 21, 2009 by forestofemptiness

[Lucky7Strikes]

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful replies.

 

FoE, I've been practicing self-inquiry for quite a while based on Maharshi's writings. I also do Shikantaza meditation everyday.

 

This past year I picked up Kunlun more as an energy practice. And it has no doubt helped my meditations not to mention health. I've had no masters, and really don't consider Max Christensen as a Sifu.

 

I've read through the sutras, but as you said, Zhuo Ming-Dao, there are so many levels in them to suit the experience of the seeker that it's tough to recognize which is the absolute truth and which is the relative truth. I've always thought that the non-dual teachings on emptiness was the teaching of the absolute truth. But I will definitely look through the recommended sutras.

 

Dainin, maybe you forgot how to ponder.

 

Paradise, I completely agree that emptiness is a method. And maybe that's the only thing there is. I think you're getting at something important here. I certainly do not know what the natural inclination of all phenomena is. Or whether there is one. A part of my belief is that it is towards happiness, virtue, peace, exapansion, etc. Hmm...maybe that's why there is suffering and illusion. Why did the Buddha become a Buddha in the first place?

 

Zhang, I think there is merit to simply giving yourself to a practice and waiting for what it unfolds. And really...my practice of self-enquiry, meditation and all this has unfolded this pondering . I certainly didn't expect to find an empty house when I tried to find me in it.

 

I ran into this quote the other day looking through my notes on Chuang Tzu and thought it relevant:

 

"The true man of old knew neither fondness for life nor aversion to death, was neither elated by going forth not reluctant to return. Casually he went and casually he came. He neither forgot what his beginning had been nor sought what his end would be. Happily he received and forgetfully he returned. This is what is meant by not detracting from the Way with the mind, not assisting heaven with the human. This is what we call a true man."

 

Somewhere the Buddha is laughing with his fat belly...no?

Edited June 21, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[forestofclarity]

Lucky,

 

You may find the following reading helpful:

 

Emptiness Teachings of Greg Goode

 

A Verb for Nirvana

 

Also, in my experience, existential crises are often a sign of progress. Keep up the good work!

Edited June 21, 2009 by forestofemptiness

[dwai]

I know that this topic has be done over time and time again. A lot of you are probably sick of Buddhism vs. Taoism, vs. Advaita stuff. But I am in need of guidance because I've been running into serious walls during meditation lately while pondering over all this emptiness business. So here it is:

 

Dependent Origination states that all things that arise are dependent on the rising of everything else, hence they are all empty of inherent self existence. So there is no beginning and no end. No self, no suffering, etc. Yet the experience of everything is very real even if its nature is "illusory"...

 

So how can there be anything called Nirvana, cessation of suffering, cessation from the cycle of birth and death....???? How can anything truly "cease" when cessation is dependent on conditions itself.

 

I am stuck in the nihilistic sense of...the wheel keeps spinning on its own accord...whose to stop it when every part of my being is spinning with it anyway?

 

The Way waxes and wanes, creates and destroys, rises and ceases, and so am I to simply laugh at the absurdity of all phenomena and my helpless sense of existence within it?

 

My belief is usually that when one has become a totally selfless entity, free from desires, attachments, ignorance...that compassion will become one's true nature, and that the virtue of the Way will manifest accordingly. But I keep running into this existential wall time and time again......AGH!!

 

 

Just meditate. Buddhism, Advaita, Taoism, they all lead to the same place. Pick one, stick with it.

If you don't feel comfortable with the nihilistic sense, pick something that you are comfortable with. No matter what any "bodhisattva" says, there IS no ULTIMATE way. They are all good and they all work. You need to right teacher, right attitude and right circumstances, that's all.

Edited June 22, 2009 by dwai

[Lucky7Strikes]

After much thought on the concept of D.O., the meaning of causes and conditions, I'm beginning to entertain these ideas. Please criticize.

 

1)

 

The notion of cause and conditions comes from the act of distinction. What exactly is the cause in any perceived event? Wouldn't it not purely be of the mind's own distinction? And don't our actions and choices arise from such illusions?

 

The boundary between cause and effect is non-existent except within the illusionary perception of the mind. Our perception creates our habits which in turn formulates our choices. All conditions, all phenomena is therefore said to be of the Mind.

 

2)

 

When one looks to the source of this Mind--of all actions, of all acts of human cognition and reflection, one will find the sense of identity. This is the "I" thought. The grasping of a self. Most people believe this to be within the body as the brain, glands, energies, etc. But in the investigation of the location of the "I" ness, one finds that it is no where, that all rising phenomena within consciousness/experience is itself the "I."

 

Fragmentation of experience is all of the mind's illusionary concepts of boundaries and distinctions. In reality, there is only the Mind. But due to the illusion of causes and conditions, people create their own Karmas and suffer through them. They create their own identities within the dream, as the body, and cycle through their own Perceptions. All phenomena is therefore said to be dreamlike.

 

3)

 

Free will. If all things arise due to causes and conditions, or parts and fragments, why is it that there is a sense of free will? When I say free will, I am pointing towards the Creative urge. To create, do, evolve, be happy, move, etc. all point to this same arising movement of energy. The basic nature to Create comes from what exactly? More importantly, why does one want to Create? What exactly does it mean to Create something?

 

After all, isn't everyone here because they feel that there is greater potential to their existence beyond the current body and mind? That they can make the apparent choice to transform themselves? To Create a newer reality? What exactly is this?

 

To Create implies a Creator. One's identity, the center point, wherever it may be, is the source of Creation. One can only Create from that identity (For most people, it is through the body and the mind). When there are no causes and conditions, no locality of self, what is the source of Creation?

 

It arises from one's very own Mind, Free Will, and Intent. All phenomena is experienced through the way one grasps onto an identity within one's own Creation. It is the dreamer clinging onto a dream identity, and suffering from the imagined "causes and conditions". He/she lives and dies in his own Mind and it's own rules. Our path is then to rid of the illusionary identity and to return to the state of an absolute Creator (Now, I don't want to say God, since that word carries so many connotations). It is the very essence of the Mind to Create, to Dream, and to revel in its own Creation. To be virtuous, playful, cling, liberate, or whatever action you imagine arise from no where except one's own Mind. There is no other, but "I." Heaven and Earth are "I," the Tao is the "I," "I" am both God and the Devil. This "I" ness, this Creative consciousness is "I." It is ever dynamic and it's abilities are infinite.

 

Everything is created from My energy and creativity. In fact, Everything IS my energy and creativity. There is nothing within Creation that is not "I." (Please note this is very different from Advaitia's Brahma)

 

4)

Then, obviously, who are "You"?

 

I am not you and you are not me. You are a different "I," a whole different universal creation itself. I am only a part of your world as a reflective essence and that reflective essence is simply your own perception.

 

For example, "you" cannot kill "me." It is impossible. The killing would only take place within your own delusion of a self conceived body killing another self-conceived body. The "I" you see is nothing but your own self, something in your own dream.

 

But can you Create from nothing? Do you remember ever Creating "me" consciously? Most likely not.

 

Here we run into the question on the meaning of Creation. Can anything truly be created originally out of nothing? No, it cannot. The artist cannot paint without a subject, the brush, and colors. He draws inspiration from his perception, and likewise, I can only Create through "other." And in this way, we are all "connected."

 

I am in everyone and everyone is in me. The key word in the phrase is "in." The stress must be put on "one" in the word "everyone," because if we say "I am everything" the phrase can suppose an objective universe. This is not so, since everything is subjective. "I" am the Creator, and "you" are the paint, the paint brush, the paper, the mountains (Technically, the true Self is the process of creation. Again, you are your experience and your experience is determined by intent). The tools are as infinite as there are infinite number of beings and universes. Compassion is a means to attain the tools, and Wisdom is the road to Perfection.

 

So when we cultivate, we are cultivating our Creation, not simply our bodies within an outside thing called the world. And this way, your light will be reflected in everyone. .

Edited October 16, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Marblehead]

Hi Lucky,

 

Really great post!

 

I don't agree with everything you said but that does not distract from what you said.

 

There is so much there I have no idea what to respond to, if anything at all.

 

Yes, I do hold to the concept of cause and effect but I also hold to the concept of free will. Therefore, it is my belief that we can, at any time we wish, intervene in the process of cause and effect and change the outcome to something other than what would have resulted had we done nothing.

 

Yes, you create, and so do I and so does everyone else. But I did not create the tree in my neighbor's yard - it was there before I bought my place. I didn't create the tree.

 

Peace & Love!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Yes, you create, and so do I and so does everyone else. But I did not create the tree in my neighbor's yard - it was there before I bought my place. I didn't create the tree.

 

Actually, I think you did create that tree. You could only create it with the only means you knew how to, as a form called a "tree." It doesn't even have to be a conscious creation, but habitual as well. You have simply painted the human realm, and there are trees in it! .

[Marblehead]

Actually, I think you did create that tree. You could only create it with the only means you knew how to, as a form called a "tree." It doesn't even have to be a conscious creation, but habitual as well. You have simply painted the human realm, and there are trees in it! .

 

Hehehe. Good try Lucky. But I'm sure you know that what you said won't float in my bath tub.

 

The universe existed before I was born. Actually, my mother existed before I was born. While it is true that I have an ego it really isn't "THAT" big.

 

Peace & Love!

[-O-]

 

 

... And don't our actions and choices arise from such illusions?

 

...When I say free will, I am pointing towards the Creative urge. To create, do, evolve, be happy, move, etc. all point to this same arising movement of energy.

 

... There is nothing within Creation that is not "I." (Please note this is very different from Advaitia's Brahma)

 

... I am only a part of your world as a reflective essence and that reflective essence is simply your own perception.

 

 

 

 

If you don't mind I would like to add a thought out of left field and a reference...

 

In your contemplations try replacing the word suffering with motivation.

 

And the ego & thought thread touch some of this in a round about way.

[booktreasure]

There is some good information on this thread here. Have you tried Meditation Mastery? Not special in terms of technique but very good in terms of approach. The advice below comes not from beginners but experienced practitioners who have studied and taught taoism, advaita, buddhism, shamanism etc for several decades.

 

 

Shamanism was most probably the first spiritual practice on the planet... they went on these spirit journeys and there was real heart... communication... they saw intelligence in everything. Modern religion has become so dry, lifeless and intellectual... I got a lot out of Buddhism but I also feel like it lost the the real core of it, that's why Buddhism hasn't created anymore Buddhas just followers... but in texts Buddha he seemed to recognize this universal intelligence in all things. Big difference between him and the masses that followed him though... The gnostics recognize it too but you don't hear about this from the mainstream church....they might say that God is everywhere but you don't see it in practice.

 

So people and society have become this thing where evolution is all about technology instead of consciousness and intelligence is about adding up facts and figures not seeing that the world, universe and everything has a consciousness in it.

 

..Doesn't matter what you call it as long as you recognize it... the human intellect isn't the only intelligence that exists and it isn't the only way that intelligence can be. There are so many forms of intelligence but most people just think that the human intellect is the be all and end all...it's not and that attitude is their downfall.

 

 

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject:

Observing the observer is a piece of cake. You just gotta think a bit laterally and instead of just noticing the scenery notice the witness that is looking at it all. Think about it for a minute. How do you know that you're observing something? That right THERE is the observer. So observe it, notice it.

 

Also don't just do the meditation passively. You got to be actively involved, like having a conversation with a real person. Recognize what's happening and what's there. That's what they mean by intelligence. Look at meditation the way a shaman would look at it. See that everything has an intelligence or a spirit in it. It's not just dumb energy, it's alive. The navel chakra has an intelligence, so does the heart chakra, the third eye, the breath, trees, the ocean, energy. They're all communicating something, a frequency, insight or an intelligence! No one else except yourself can get you to see this, a teacher can only guide you to the door but you gotta push your mind to be open to see this stuff.

 

We all get frustrated at times but instead of getting frustrated why not see how you can release that frustration? May be this is exactly where you need to be so that you can release it. Frustration is just more resistance so all its doing is holding ya back man. I was probably the slowest learner ever but I didn't complain I just worked hard, thought about it constantly and absorbed all the posts on this thread. Now I don't have a single practice session where I don't progress in some way or form and I'm not bragging, I'm just saying that you need to be proactive about it. If you're not making progress then you've got to come back and look at what you are doing. Look at what you're doing and look at what you could be doing to make your skills better.

Edited October 16, 2009 by booktreasure

[Lucky7Strikes]

There is some good information on this thread here. Have you tried Meditation Mastery? Not special in terms of technique but very good in terms of approach. The advice below comes not from beginners but experienced practitioners who have studied and taught taoism, advaita, buddhism, shamanism etc for several decades.

 

I'm not sure what meditation has to do with what I wrote above. But thanks for the link!

 

If you don't mind I would like to add a thought out of left field and a reference...

 

In your contemplations try replacing the word suffering with motivation.

 

And the ego & thought thread touch some of this in a round about way.

 

That is a lengthy thread!...

 

I'll have to read through it... .

 

And yes, suffering can be motivation. but my original inquiry was into the concept of "cause and conditions" and how time plays itself out and where our perception/distinctions are made.

[Vajrahridaya]

I know that this topic has be done over time and time again. A lot of you are probably sick of Buddhism vs. Taoism, vs. Advaita stuff. But I am in need of guidance because I've been running into serious walls during meditation lately while pondering over all this emptiness business. So here it is:

 

Dependent Origination states that all things that arise are dependent on the rising of everything else, hence they are all empty of inherent self existence. So there is no beginning and no end. No self, no suffering, etc. Yet the experience of everything is very real even if its nature is "illusory"...

 

So how can there be anything called Nirvana, cessation of suffering, cessation from the cycle of birth and death....???? How can anything truly "cease" when cessation is dependent on conditions itself.

 

I am stuck in the nihilistic sense of...the wheel keeps spinning on its own accord...whose to stop it when every part of my being is spinning with it anyway?

 

The Way waxes and wanes, creates and destroys, rises and ceases, and so am I to simply laugh at the absurdity of all phenomena and my helpless sense of existence within it?

 

My belief is usually that when one has become a totally selfless entity, free from desires, attachments, ignorance...that compassion will become one's true nature, and that the virtue of the Way will manifest accordingly. But I keep running into this existential wall time and time again......AGH!!

 

Hi there,

 

You would like to study more Mahayana and even get into Myriad Worlds which is a book you can get on Amazon. You never stop the wheel really. That's figurative, you just stop seeing the wheel as being inherent. The cessation is the cessation of mis-cognition, that's it. Why do you think we offer all our merits after each practice? We offer the merits in order to build endless merit so that when we do attain realization we have endless merits to work from once the cessation of misunderstanding is realized. We keep going, working... never ceasing to be, we just be as free and give to the we.

[Marblehead]

 

And yes, suffering can be motivation. but my original inquiry was into the concept of "cause and conditions" and how time plays itself out and where our perception/distinctions are made.

 

 

What's this? You are trying to keep the thread on topic? Hehehe. Good luck. (Actually, luck has nothing to do with it - cause and conditions rule effects.)

 

BTW I think that our perceptions/distinctions are based on the reasons we made the initial choice of action or inaction. (We have expectations and whether or not our expectations have been met will determine how we precieve the 'cause and effect' process.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Lucky7Strikes]

What's this? You are trying to keep the thread on topic? Hehehe. Good luck. (Actually, luck has nothing to do with it - cause and conditions rule effects.)

 

BTW I think that our perceptions/distinctions are based on the reasons we made the initial choice of action or inaction. (We have expectations and whether or not our expectations have been met will determine how we precieve the 'cause and effect' process.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yes, yes exactly. Our distinctions only come when our intentions have made them so. There are no causes and conditions outside of the mind's own judgments.

[Vajrahridaya]

What's this? You are trying to keep the thread on topic? Hehehe. Good luck. (Actually, luck has nothing to do with it - cause and conditions rule effects.)

 

BTW I think that our perceptions/distinctions are based on the reasons we made the initial choice of action or inaction. (We have expectations and whether or not our expectations have been met will determine how we precieve the 'cause and effect' process.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

This is why in the Bodhisattva tradition, we make the intention to liberate all beings, the intention of our own liberation, and this sets up an entirely different ball of effects that accumulate beneficial expressions. So, once selflessness is actually realized, one still has this endless ball of accumulated beneficialness.

 

It also helps immensely to connect with a teacher as sitting with a good reputable teacher with realization is one of the best ways to realize for oneself the benefits of practice, and the energy emanating from the being of such a teacher effects our own energy, especially if we are consciously open to it.

[Marblehead]

Yes, yes exactly. Our distinctions only come when our intentions have made them so. There are no causes and conditions outside of the mind's own judgments.

 

Your post caused me to think of the concept "dualities" for some reason. I have no idea if dualities has anything to do with your topic though. Just wanted to let you know.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

This is why in the Bodhisattva tradition, we make the intention to liberate all beings, the intention of our own liberation, and this sets up an entirely different ball of effects that accumulate beneficial expressions. So, once selflessness is actually realized, one still has this endless ball of accumulated beneficialness.

 

It also helps immensely to connect with a teacher as sitting with a good reputable teacher with realization is one of the best ways to realize for oneself the benefits of practice, and the energy emanating from the being of such a teacher effects our own energy, especially if we are consciously open to it.

 

Lao Tzu said something similar to your first paragraph.

 

I had a wonderful teacher once. Too bad she was married to someone else.

 

Peace & Love!