Running into walls again....ARGH!

[Vajrahridaya]

And Acharya Mahayogi Shridhar Rana Rinpoche states:

(p.s. I had a strange dream of visiting Acharya Mahayogi Shridhar Rana Rinpoche)

 

Wonderful!!

[JustARandomPanda]

 

Which are you talking about? Anatman vs. Atman? Self vs. No-Self?

 

I was asking why one can't have full enlightenment into both infinite compassion and infinite wisdom. Lucky says you're not understanding him. You say Lucky doesn't understand D.O. [at least up to this point that I've read in the thread] and that he's zhentong (the wiki article kind of boggled my mind on that topic).

 

So what I'm asking is - if both Lucky's understanding is true and yours is true...why can not one have realization of both?

 

In other words...why are you two arguing that the other is not 'getting' what you're saying?

 

It's left me very confused as to which is considered "right view" as the 8 Fold Path would have one do.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I was asking why one can't have full enlightenment into both infinite compassion and infinite wisdom. Lucky says you're not understanding him. You say Lucky doesn't understand D.O. [at least up to this point that I've read in the thread] and that he's zhentong (the wiki article kind of boggled my mind on that topic).

 

So what I'm asking is - if both Lucky's understanding is true and yours is true...why can not one have realization of both?

 

Actually, I'm beginning to see what he means. He understood me correctly too. It's just that, well, he types the same thing many times and one gets used to the words and easily misses the meaning. .

 

I didn't quite understand why Awarness needs something for it to reflect its own existence. Dependent Origination is the only way creation can be. It is a made up duality.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Vajrahridaya]

I was asking why one can't have full enlightenment into both infinite compassion and infinite wisdom. Lucky says you're not understanding him. You say Lucky doesn't understand D.O. [at least up to this point that I've read in the thread] and that he's zhentong (the wiki article kind of boggled my mind on that topic).

 

So what I'm asking is - if both Lucky's understanding is true and yours is true...why can not one have realization of both?

 

In other words...why are you two arguing that the other is not 'getting' what you're saying?

 

It's left me very confused as to which is considered "right view" as the 8 Fold Path would have one do.

 

Infinite wisdom and infinite compassion are both results of each other. We are not arguing that.

 

We are arguing basically Zhentong vs. Rantong. If you read my Nagarjuna quotes and commentary in a post on the last page. This might clear up why we are debating this. I like debating with Lucky... he's a nice debater.

 

 

Where does one go from here?

 

Up the Bhumi ladder. Refine, refine, refine, integrate, integrate, integrate!

[JustARandomPanda]

Dependent Origination is the only way creation can be. It is a made up duality.

 

Yes...I've been convinced of that for at least 1-2 months. That's why I keep saying Dependent Origination (or as the Dalai Lama puts it - Dependent Arising) is the acid that melts all it touches. There's nothing to stop it from being true all the way through. That's what I find most disturbing about it. Needless to say I've been contemplating D.O a hell of a lot for the past 1-2 months.

 

When I did get it I finally understood what the Dalai Lama meant when he said we are 'like' an illusion. People who object thinking he's saying reality is an illusion or non-real have just proven they haven't 'gotten' what he's saying yet.

 

 

 

Edit: Can someone direct me to a step-by-step meditation instruction for examining No-Self?

Edited October 19, 2009 by SereneBlue

[ralis]

All this discourse entirely misses the point. Vajraji can argue the fine points of dependent origination ad infinitum and no one will ever obtain knowledge in regards to one's true condition. Awareness in the heart center is the only way one can understand the true nature of the universe. By living from the heart center, all the human primate fascination with isms and my religion is better than your religion falls away. So far all this discussion around Buddhism being somehow superior, is moot.

 

There are several traditions that teach the heart centered awareness. I would be happy to answer any questions.

 

Norbu always taught this as the primary practice.

 

 

ralis

Edited October 19, 2009 by ralis

[JustARandomPanda]

There are several traditions that teach the heart centered awareness. I would be happy to answer any questions.

 

I would love to hear about one (or more) of the heart centered awareness meditations. So long as it has step-by-step instructions or a "Heart-Centered Awareness for Dummies' approach.

[ralis]

I would love to hear about one (or more) of the heart centered awareness meditations. So long as it has step-by-step instructions or a "Heart-Centered Awareness for Dummies' approach.

 

 

Serene,

 

The heart center is simply being aware just above the bottom of the sternum and below the physical heart. Around 2" above the bottom of the zyphoid process. Then just feel deep within toward the spine. Relax the body into that spot. Dzogchen is about relaxing and letting the mind naturally rest.

 

If you like, we could have a conversation via Skype or email chat and I could give more detail.

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

 

There are several traditions that teach the heart centered awareness. I would be happy to answer any questions.

 

Norbu always taught this as the primary practice.

ralis

 

Norbu teaches Guru Yoga as the primary practice.

 

For anyone interested in clarity...

 

The experience of the heart chakra happens in any spiritual tradition, but to be free from clinging to this awareness as a primordial source of all beings... one must contextualize the experience in the subtle mind.

 

It's not the experience itself that is liberating, it's the inner interpretation of it through the de-grasping agent of Interdependent Arising that is necessary.

 

Norbu teaches that "emptiness" in the Prasangika paradigm that is Rangtong perspective. If one listens to the discourses of Norbu and reads his books, one knows this.

 

One has to study and contextualize the experience of Rigpa otherwise one will fall into an extreme that is subtler than thought as the formless jhanas are subtler than thinking and are seemingly non-dual experiences, but not... "liberation from the wheel".

 

One of the best ways is mantra meditation as well unified with the Guru Yoga, as it descends from the tongue, to the throat, to the heart and even to the tan tien (belly area) as a subtle pulsation of peaceful bliss. It clears all the levels and is experienced resounding in all dimensions of the chakras but centers in the center of the wheel back to the heart as a subtle pulsation and actually through Guru Yoga will work where necessary naturally guided by the enlightened intention of lineage.

 

In Dzogchen, the view is extremely important. It would take some study to get that clarity. Rinpoche is indeed a Buddhist and teaches traditional Buddhist view and context.

 

Rinpoche has said that Madhyamaka Prasangika understanding is necessary.

 

 

 

I would love to hear about one (or more) of the heart centered awareness meditations. So long as it has step-by-step instructions or a "Heart-Centered Awareness for Dummies' approach.

 

Probably one of the only times I've agreed with Ralis is in reference to his last post.

 

Om Mani Padme Hum mantra is a very good process, and takes time, but once you have it, it takes you to that space immediately at any time.

[ralis]

Norbu teaches Guru Yoga as the primary practice.

 

For anyone interested in clarity...

 

The experience of the heart chakra happens in any spiritual tradition, but to be free from clinging to this awareness as a primordial source of all beings... one must contextualize the experience in the subtle mind.

 

It's not the experience itself that is liberating, it's the inner interpretation of it through the de-grasping agent of Interdependent Arising that is necessary.

 

Norbu teaches that "emptiness" in the Prasangika paradigm that is Rangtong perspective. If one listens to the discourses of Norbu and reads his books, one knows this.

 

One has to study and contextualize the experience of Rigpa otherwise one will fall into an extreme that is subtler than thought as the formless jhanas are subtler than thinking and are seemingly non-dual experiences, but not... "liberation from the wheel".

 

One of the best ways is mantra meditation as well unified with the Guru Yoga, as it descends from the tongue, to the throat, to the heart and even to the tan tien (belly area) as a subtle pulsation of peaceful bliss. It clears all the levels and is experienced resounding in all dimensions of the chakras but centers in the center of the wheel back to the heart as a subtle pulsation and actually through Guru Yoga will work where necessary naturally guided by the enlightened intention of lineage.

 

In Dzogchen, the view is extremely important. It would take some study to get that clarity. Rinpoche is indeed a Buddhist and teaches traditional Buddhist view and context.

 

Rinpoche has said that Madhyamaka Prasangika understanding is necessary.

Probably one of the only times I've agreed with Ralis is in reference to his last post.

 

Om Mani Padme Hum mantra is a very good process, and takes time, but once you have it, it takes you to that space immediately at any time.

 

I have his words on tape that the primary awareness is in the heart center, which is different than the heart chakra. Yes, Guru Yoga is very important. The awareness of the heart center goes beyond any mental construct of a certain view.

 

 

ralis

Edited October 19, 2009 by ralis

[JustARandomPanda]

 

I have his words on tape that the primary awareness is in the heart center, which is different than the heart chakra. Yes, Guru Yoga is very important. The awareness of the heart center goes beyond any mental construct of a certain view.

 

Is this heat-center found in the same area one feels the central channel? The through which Kundalini is supposed to rise? In other words..does it bi-sect the central channel?

[ralis]

Is this heat-center found in the same area one feels the central channel? The through which Kundalini is supposed to rise? In other words..does it bi-sect the central channel?

 

 

Just feel for it and don't worry about channels. Keep it simple.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Is this heat-center found in the same area one feels the central channel? The through which Kundalini is supposed to rise? In other words..does it bi-sect the central channel?

 

Yes, it's basically the Anahata chakra.

 

I have his words on tape that the primary awareness is in the heart center, which is different than the heart chakra. Yes, Guru Yoga is very important. The awareness of the heart center goes beyond any mental construct of a certain view.

ralis

 

Oh, corrected... thank you.

 

Your talking about the hridaya chakra. Ahhhh yes.

 

Ok.

 

p.s. This is a contemplation in Trika Shaivism as well and taught by Swami Muktananda. Though the view is different as Muktanandas view is eternalism.

 

So... Dzogchen view will be subtler.

 

This is where one can experience the indestructible drop/tigle/bindu/sphere as well colored a lapis lazuli blue/cobaltish.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Capital]

How many threads have you derailed, my angsty friends?

 

Forget your arguments, for you are bringing much stress to the whole board with your thread-stalking and contests of dogma.

 

I know I have little right to say anything, as I have not been here long, but the constant fighting is ridiculous. Let each other be free to feel as he/she may. Both Taoism and Buddhism preach dispassion towards both praise and ridicule.

[Marblehead]

Out of curiosity Marble. What are your favorite shows?

 

When it's TV (vegetate) time I first look for nature/educational programs. If there is nothing interesting there I will look for MA/action movies. (But not war movies - I had enough of the 'real' stuff.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

When it's TV (vegetate) time I first look for nature/educational programs. If there is nothing interesting there I will look for MA/action movies. (But not war movies - I had enough of the 'real' stuff.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

Ah ok...

 

Yeah... I guess I don't watch TV. I just Hulu. I like Heroes the best. I also like that new show Modern Family. I think it's hilarious!

[Marblehead]

... the apparent permanence of awareness is an ignorant assumption when you haven't fully investigated awareness.

 

also, phenomena is not separate from awareness, when a sound appears.. that sound is awareness. when form appears that is awareness. there is no subject or object division, and there is no 'I'.

 

I just wanted to mention that I agree with this. (Yeah, I had to remove some of the other stuff that was said. Hehehe.)

 

This is exactly Taoist awareness as well.

 

However, I will suggest that it is not always this way in 'real' life because we have the tendency to insert "I" into the experience. ('I saw a beautiful rose' as opposed to 'there is a beautiful rose'.)

 

But if we are lucky (pardon the pun) we can oftentimes have our 'awareness experiences' without applying our personal alterations to the event.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Peace & Love!

 

Thanks for this... I'm really feeling it from you lately.

[Marblehead]

 

When I did get it I finally understood what the Dalai Lama meant when he said we are 'like' an illusion. People who object thinking he's saying reality is an illusion or non-real have just proven they haven't 'gotten' what he's saying yet.

 

I just felt that this needed to be repeated. For some reason it seems important.

 

Peace & Love!

[Lucky7Strikes]

I just wanted to mention that I agree with this. (Yeah, I had to remove some of the other stuff that was said. Hehehe.)

 

This is exactly Taoist awareness as well.

 

However, I will suggest that it is not always this way in 'real' life because we have the tendency to insert "I" into the experience. ('I saw a beautiful rose' as opposed to 'there is a beautiful rose'.)

 

But if we are lucky (pardon the pun) we can oftentimes have our 'awareness experiences' without applying our personal alterations to the event.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Hey Marble,

 

I think you're absolutely right. Life cannot be without an inserted "I" and the seen "rose." Even though the very nature of everything exists as Awareness (hmm...let's call that the Tao ), duality arises for it to be, well, aware.

 

Total subjectivity cannot exist for eternity. Time and space, you and I, and all distinctions are eventually made. It's like the mirror can only be when it makes a reflection.

 

When one acts from non-duality, every moment results in harmony, or is guided towards harmony. This is why Xabir keeps saying that each moment is perfected by itself. Because nothing is taken to be a permanent distinction, there is constant integration with whatever the mind chooses to project (virtue). And yes, the content is, as I mentioned before, shared by other Awarenesses just in matters of taste, the "tree" ness, "Earth" ness, etc.

 

There is dependence, but no true object or subject within the relationship. Even the frame of what is subject and what is object constantly changes. All things "change" in relativity, but the Luminosity that is Awareness is eternal. It must see change, in this case the duality of time, to be. (hmm...Yin and Yang are not one, but they form oneness .)

 

The trouble here is that with statements like above, a person imagines something called Awareness being dependent on another factor, when really, the Dependence IS Awareness. The two cannot be separated.

 

This doesn't mean that there is no "I." The "I" ness, your self consciousness and the energy latent within you is absolutely real. It is free to create distinctions, environments, and even situations. This is what free will is. The more your wisdom of relativity, and the compassion of unity is deepened, the palatte becomes greater and more bountiful. We're all artists here borrowing from "others." .

 

How many threads have you derailed, my angsty friends?

 

Forget your arguments, for you are bringing much stress to the whole board with your thread-stalking and contests of dogma.

 

I know I have little right to say anything, as I have not been here long, but the constant fighting is ridiculous. Let each other be free to feel as he/she may. Both Taoism and Buddhism preach dispassion towards both praise and ridicule.

 

. You need to fight in order to break your assumptions. Someone needs to punch you in the face for you to wake up.

 

So please join in the brawl! .

 

Edit: Can someone direct me to a step-by-step meditation instruction for examining No-Self?

 

SELF-INQUIRY!!! .

Edited October 19, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

The trouble here is that with statements like above, a person imagines something called Awareness being dependent on another factor, when really, the Dependence IS Awareness. The two cannot be separated.

 

Awareness is dependent upon insight. Awareness is not inherent ultimate existence according to Rangtong view.

 

This doesn't mean that there is no "I." The "I" ness, your self consciousness and the energy latent within you is absolutely real. It is free to create distinctions, environments, and even situations. This is what free will is. The more your wisdom of relativity, and the compassion of unity is deepened, the palatte becomes greater and more bountiful. We're all artists here borrowing from "others." .

. You need to fight in order to break your assumptions. Someone needs to punch you in the face for you to wake up.

 

So please join in the brawl! .

SELF-INQUIRY!!! .

 

Definitely Zhentong...

[JustARandomPanda]

SELF-INQUIRY!!! .

 

uh...wth does that mean? Sorry...I'm a Dummy. I need a step-by-step example please of this "self-inquiry".

[Lucky7Strikes]

uh...wth does that mean? Sorry...I'm a Dummy. I need a step-by-step example please of this "self-inquiry".

 

Well you are right now aware. Seek the source of your sense of existence. See it in the body, the environment, the past, the present. Try to find where your sense of existence, the "I" ness comes from.

 

Steve f made an awesome post regarding this a few pages back. I suggest reading through Ramana Maharshi's work for self-inquiry. He was quite good at it I presume. .

 

 

Haha!

 

I'll see where my practice goes from here .

[xabir2005]

Awareness is dependent upon insight. Awareness is not inherent ultimate existence according to Rangtong view.

Definitely Zhentong...

Here's my POV and correct me if you don't understand it the same way:

 

Luminosity is present even in the ignorant state, just temporarily obscured.

 

The Buddha:

 

"Luminous, monks, is the mind.[1] And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}

 

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}

 

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

 

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}

 

 

And this 'mind' is also totally interdependently originated... it is non permanent and non independent but at the same time it is not manufactured by anything (including practice, insight, experience, etc), it is what is spontaneously perfected and manifesting every moment as everything we experience. Nevertheless the luminosity cannot be separated from the phenomena which is interdependently originated, hence luminosity is empty of any inherent existence. This is not contradictory but is simply the nature of everything.

 

Clear knowing is naturally present whether there is ignorance. Even in the unenlightened state, there is still seeing, smelling, hearing.... that is all the display of luminosity or clear knowing, though the display is dependently originated, never has luminosity been lost for a moment. Luminosity isn't lost at any moment, just defiled by ignorance. Even ignorance is actually a display of luminosity though grasped at the wrong way. (remember Thrangu Rinpoche said something like, ignorance is not darkness, rather it means the luminosity is too bright and one fails to see its emptiness)

 

So... though non-dual luminosity is naturally present there is of course a difference between wisdom and ignorance, the same luminosity presenting as the five skandhas perceived in its true nature is wisdom, the same luminosity presenting as five skandhas perceived through grasping at being a self, grasping at being and nonbeing, is ignorance, and manifests as dualistic/samsaric consciousness (instead of nondual wisdom). Wisdom and ignorance are also all dependently originated.

Edited October 19, 2009 by xabir2005

[JustARandomPanda]

way. (remember Thrangu Rinpoche said something like, ignorance is not darkness, rather it means the luminosity is too bright and one fails to see its emptiness)

 

 

Another piece of the puzzle just fell into place with that statement! Thank you Xabir!