Running into walls again....ARGH!

[Vajrahridaya]

No that is not what I'm saying.

 

I'm asking who is there to attain liberation if all phenomena happens due to dependent rising relative to other creations.

 

Ok, thanks for correcting my assumption.

 

 

But,

right... no one.

 

That's the point of the heart sutra...

 

You'll have to experience the meaning directly by exhausting all other self caused answers.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Yes... a bit of prasangika there. But... mind does not exist on it's own, it only exists relative to it's content... either formless concepts, or form concepts. The cosmos would still be without your mind, but that's just saying... that's not actual.

 

Your mind is still dependently arisen and is not absolute. I think your still thinking that beyond perception and non-perception is some absolute non-dual core?

 

Think about what this means. Because neither perception nor non-perception is pretty much how your describing things.

 

There is no cosmos beyond my mind. How can you know of existence without the experience?

 

It doesn't matter whether the Mind exists on its own or not. It is existence itself. It is all there is. Every experience is already in a non-dual state.

 

The content IS the Mind

[Vajrahridaya]

There is no cosmos beyond my mind. How can you know of existence without the experience?

 

It doesn't matter whether the Mind exists on its own or not. It is existence itself. It is all there is. Every experience is already in a non-dual state.

 

The content IS the Mind

 

I see I think I see what your getting at... there is no such thing as non-existence... yes... true.

 

Ok... but what is this mind?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Ok, thanks for correcting my assumption.

But,

right... no one.

 

That's the point of the heart sutra...

 

You'll have to experience the meaning directly by exhausting all other self caused answers.

 

Right no one.

 

I don't think I like that idea. And that is not my interpretation of the Heart Sutra anymore.

 

To assert that there is no one to attain liberation means that there is only relativity acting itself out through the Law of the universe or whatever. That all volition, achievements, liberation, bondage happen through perchance. Luck.

 

How is that different from the annihilation of self will of Advaita?

[Vajrahridaya]

Right no one.

 

I don't think I like that idea. And that is not my interpretation of the Heart Sutra anymore.

 

To assert that there is no one to attain liberation means that there is only relativity acting itself out through the Law of the universe or whatever. That all volition, achievements, liberation, bondage happen through perchance. Luck.

 

How is that different from the annihilation of self will of Advaita?

 

Because it's only your endless chain of response or reaction that bares fruit. From this perspective you are the god of your existence because you only receive what you have given throughout endless time. There is no luck.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I see I think I see what your getting at... there is no such thing as non-existence... yes... true.

 

Ok... but what is this mind?

 

It is I!

 

.

 

I, I, I!

 

There is nothing but I. There can be nothing but I. It is everything, but NOT everyone. You and I are on a total different plane of existence altogether. Each is his/her universe creating and expanding. Everything is created through the self and is of the self. The Mind dreams.

 

And where do the contents of the Mind come from? It comes from the Mind's choice to create through a medium called being "Human." And in this mode it absorbs the patterns and imprints of the human condition. The "me," Lucky, which you see in your perception is therefore not me but an impression of me reflected as an actualized possibility, a pattern. We are both at a distinct stage in a similar dream.

[JustARandomPanda]

 

Because it's only your endless chain of response or reaction that bares fruit. From this perspective you are the god of your existence because you only receive what you have given throughout endless time. There is no luck.

 

This statement has me curious. Does this mean the journey toward Awakening / Enlightenment is directly proportional to the amount of your merit you've given away to others?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Because it's only your endless chain of response or reaction that bares fruit. From this perspective you are the god of your existence because you only receive what you have given throughout endless time. There is no luck.

 

And what provokes me to give besides what has been given to me as a response. You're saying that there is no one here to act out a will of its own except for the causes and conditions to play itself out.

[Vajrahridaya]

This statement has me curious. Does this mean the journey toward Awakening / Enlightenment is directly proportional to the amount of your merit you've given away to others?

 

It's said that the length of time you have a glimpse into the infinite, is directly proportional to how selfless you have been.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[JustARandomPanda]

 

It's said that the length of time you have a glimpse into the infinite, is directly proportional to how selfless you have been.

 

Oh dear. I must really suck at being selfless toward others. My meditation has stymied again. I haven't even attained the first jhana, nevermind anything else.

 

*sigh*

[voidisyinyang]

Since you're female I think you get a free pass past the first 4 jhanas.

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh dear. I must really suck at being selfless toward others. My meditation has stymied again. I haven't even attained the first jhana, nevermind anything else.

 

*sigh*

 

Ok... getting down on yourself is not the same as being selfless. Being selfless would be thanking the Buddhas and all beings before hand who have helped you get as far as you have!! YAY!!!

 

p.s. Then offering that merit of recognition to endless beings!!!

Edited October 17, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[JustARandomPanda]

Since you're female I think you get a free pass past the first 4 jhanas.

 

LMAO!

 

 

 

Ok... getting down on yourself is not the same as being selfless. Being selfless would be thanking the Buddhas and all beings before hand who have helped you get as far as you have!! YAY!!!

 

p.s. Then offering that merit of recognition to endless beings!!!

 

 

Holy cow!!@!!!!

 

Are you serious?!!

 

uh...dude...you just described to a PERFECT T Precisely what I've been doing for the past 6 months for hours on end.

 

Except I didn't think it counted for squat!

 

 

Ok...I think I'm gonna go freak out now.

 

 

edit: VH...are you for real.. Because I'm seriously freaking here....

 

if this is some kind of sick joke on your part....

 

 

Edited October 17, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Ok...I think I'm gonna go freak out now.

 

You're a natural... no worries.

[Sunya]

[Lucky7Strikes]

Edited October 17, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Sunya]

uh...dude...you just described to a PERFECT T Precisely what I've been doing for the past 6 months for hours on end.

 

Except I didn't think it counted for squat!

Ok...I think I'm gonna go freak out now.

edit: VH...are you for real.. Because I'm seriously freaking here....

 

Ms Serene. that is wonderful! I rejoice at your natural inclination for selflessness

 

Material causality does not determine actions, but anger, hatred, jealousy and attachment do? Is that your true observation of life as you see it? It doesn't seem realistic.

 

Ah yes, we can't blame people for their actions because conditions caused it to happen so, just as smoke arises from fire. .

 

How can any actions arise when there is no apparent source of the actor?

Nirvana is not subject to causality, but in Samsara causal processes govern all things. If one's actions will be determined by circumstances and reactions, how can one reach Nirvana that is without a cause?

 

Nirvana is simply pure vision, seeings things as they are and acting with that realization. There is no one that becomes enlightened rather the stream of continuous actions (mindstream) becomes more in accordance with the metaphysical reality.

 

This is possible because of Buddha Nature, which is simply that the condition of all is emptiness. since your condition is emptiness there is always the potentiality for you to relax into your nature and have that realization. I too have wondered how realization can be possible but it really just comes down to that.

[Sunya]

It is I!

 

.

 

I, I, I!

 

There is nothing but I. There can be nothing but I. It is everything, but NOT everyone. You and I are on a total different plane of existence altogether. Each is his/her universe creating and expanding. Everything is created through the self and is of the self. The Mind dreams.

 

there can be no identity...with the subjective mindstream,, nor with the all pervasive Dharmakaya, because 'identity' is a thought construct, if you are using Yogachara Mind-Only view, then you can see that everything is Mind, but how can there be an I attached onto Mind? there is nothing there to label. even 'self' is Mind, and 'I' is Mind. but Mind is empty and no labels or attachments can be put onto Mind.

 

how can there be different universes? you are really going too deeply into this self concept, like subjective Godheads. since mindstreams are interdependent they lack self-nature. how can separate 'universes' exist if they depend on others for their survival?

 

what you are doing is collapsing reality onto the Subject and really attaching to that Subject, afraid to let it go. but you have to negate that subject and see its interdependency with objects, see stage 3 - http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewt...p?f=12&t=48

 

non-dual presence is completely non-conceptual and is free of both the concepts of subjec and object.

 

 

And where do the contents of the Mind come from? It comes from the Mind's choice to create through a medium called being "Human." And in this mode it absorbs the patterns and imprints of the human condition. The "me," Lucky, which you see in your perception is therefore not me but an impression of me reflected as an actualized possibility, a pattern. We are both at a distinct stage in a similar dream.

 

so the Mind is like one grand being that dreams reality and chooses to experience itself through the human medium? might as well replace Mind with Brahman and you'd be a Hindu Guru It's all one Grand Dream, just dream characters in the one dream of the Godhead.

 

The Buddhists tear this view up simply by pointing out that you're projecting your ego onto reality, instead of a small dreamer there is now a Grand Dreamer. this is Anthropomorphizing at its finest

[JustARandomPanda]

Ah yes, we can't blame people for their actions because conditions caused it to happen so, just as smoke arises from fire. .

 

You know...I used to say the same. But now I understand this statement you make in jest holds truth. An uncomfortable one more than I like to admit. But your joking assertion is the very reason Bodhisattva's act as they do. It's why they are able to extend endless compassion equally to both a murderer and a saint.

 

This truth is also why it is said God / Allah / Brahman is able to offer endless compassion to the murderer as much to the saint. What did Jesus say when he hung upon the Cross?

 

"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"

[voidisyinyang]

Why Has't Thou Forsaken Me?

 

You know...I used to say the same. But now I understand this statement you make in jest holds truth. An uncomfortable one more than I like to admit. But your joking assertion is the very reason Bodhisattva's act as they do. It's why they are able to extend endless compassion equally to both a murderer and a saint.

 

This truth is also why it is said God / Allah / Brahman is able to offer endless compassion to the murderer as much to the saint. What did Jesus say when he hung upon the Cross?

 

"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"

[Vajrahridaya]

You know...I used to say the same. But now I understand this statement you make in jest holds truth. An uncomfortable one more than I like to admit. But your joking assertion is the very reason Bodhisattva's act as they do. It's why they are able to extend endless compassion equally to both a murderer and a saint.

 

This truth is also why it is said God / Allah / Brahman is able to offer endless compassion to the murderer as much to the saint. What did Jesus say when he hung upon the Cross?

 

"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"

 

Awesome!!

[Marblehead]

so the Mind is like one grand being that dreams reality and chooses to experience itself through the human medium? might as well replace Mind with Brahman and you'd be a Hindu Guru It's all one Grand Dream, just dream characters in the one dream of the Godhead.

 

Well, I just thought I would mention that I do not agree with what y'all are saying here.

 

I am not a dream. Reality is not a dream. Reality existed before I was born so there is no way reality is a figment of my imagination.

 

Now, I realize that y'all don't care that I disagree with you but for me that doesn't matter either.

 

If one has just a little reliance on science we must agree that this physical universe is approximately 13.7 billion years old. I am no where near that age nor is anyone else on this planet. Our species goes back only 4 million years.

 

I suggest that if we are unable to distinguish between our physical reality and our illusions and delusions we are going to always have a very complicated life. KISS! (Keep it simply stupid.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Nirvana is simply pure vision, seeings things as they are and acting with that realization. There is no one that becomes enlightened rather the stream of continuous actions (mindstream) becomes more in accordance with the metaphysical reality.

 

This is possible because of Buddha Nature, which is simply that the condition of all is emptiness. since your condition is emptiness there is always the potentiality for you to relax into your nature and have that realization. I too have wondered how realization can be possible but it really just comes down to that.

 

Seeing things implies a change in perception. It comes about due to previous causes, no? Right, no one becomes enlightened, only enlightenment happens.

 

No one does anything.

 

 

You know...I used to say the same. But now I understand this statement you make in jest holds truth. An uncomfortable one more than I like to admit. But your joking assertion is the very reason Bodhisattva's act as they do. It's why they are able to extend endless compassion equally to both a murderer and a saint.

 

This truth is also why it is said God / Allah / Brahman is able to offer endless compassion to the murderer as much to the saint. What did Jesus say when he hung upon the Cross?

 

"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"

 

That is all good. The main thing I'm concerned about is whether the Bodhisattva offers limitless compassion just as fire becomes ash.

 

What difference, dare I say then, is there to the murder who raped the 4 year old and the Bodhisattva? One is simply the fire and the other is the ash.

[Lucky7Strikes]

there can be no identity...with the subjective mindstream,, nor with the all pervasive Dharmakaya, because 'identity' is a thought construct, if you are using Yogachara Mind-Only view, then you can see that everything is Mind, but how can there be an I attached onto Mind? there is nothing there to label. even 'self' is Mind, and 'I' is Mind. but Mind is empty and no labels or attachments can be put onto Mind.

 

Yes, everything is the Mind. Identity is thought construct when there is a dual perspective arising. Such as "I am the body" and "you are the other body."

 

There is nothing to label, because you are already it, and you can only BE it.

 

how can there be different universes? you are really going too deeply into this self concept, like subjective Godheads. since mindstreams are interdependent they lack self-nature. how can separate 'universes' exist if they depend on others for their survival?

 

When in a dream, you marry, become wealthy, have children, grow old, but then suddenly wake up, can you say that the world in which you have lived in the dream is real? Or not real? Where did the characters in your dream come from?

 

The thought that each mind-stream depends on others for survival is very tricky. My answer to that is that there are only imprints of other realities that take form in our own mind. I gave the example of a tree. The tree rises in your own mind because your mind has attained the ability to create it. Actually it is the only thing it knows how to create: a human entity living in a human world. The tree essence, its characteristics and such, exists. But no tree is found. Only the idea is entertained.

 

what you are doing is collapsing reality onto the Subject and really attaching to that Subject, afraid to let it go. but you have to negate that subject and see its interdependency with objects, see stage 3 - http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewt...p?f=12&t=48

 

non-dual presence is completely non-conceptual and is free of both the concepts of subjec and object.

so the Mind is like one grand being that dreams reality and chooses to experience itself through the human medium? might as well replace Mind with Brahman and you'd be a Hindu Guru It's all one Grand Dream, just dream characters in the one dream of the Godhead.

 

The Buddhists tear this view up simply by pointing out that you're projecting your ego onto reality, instead of a small dreamer there is now a Grand Dreamer. this is Anthropomorphizing at its finest

 

No there is no Godhead. All there is is you, and I. The idea of a Godhead can be there, and that will be the reality you project as your mind transitions into a newer state of creation.

 

I can't project my ego onto reality. Reality is my ego. I hold all the Buddhist methods to be valid. They are to deconstruct the illusion within the dream. So is Compassion, so is Selflessness. All this too is dreampt up by the mind in order to become Awake into a state of total potential and complete freedom. No longer chained by its own creations, the servant ceases to be the master.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Marblehead]

I gave the example of a tree. The tree rises in your own mind because your mind has attained the ability to create it. Actually it is the only thing it knows how to create: a human entity living in a human world. The tree essence, its characteristics and such, exists. But no tree is found. Only the idea is entertained.

 

 

You know that I do not agree with this, right?

 

There were trees before there were any humans to realize their existence.

 

Don't be thinking that we are more than what we really are. We have the ability to percieve physical reality but we also have the ability to percieve illusions and delusions. We should not confuse our abilities.

 

Peace & Love!