women's intuition

[Lozen]

Love this quote.

 

Intuition? With all respect, bosh! Then it was intuition that led Darwin to work out the hypothesis of natural selection. Then it was intuition that fabricated the gigantically complex score of "Die Walkure." Then it was intuition that convinced Columbus of the existence of land to the west of the Azores. All this intuition of

which so much transcendental rubbish is merchanted is no more and no less than intelligence--intelligence so keen that it can penetrate to the hidden truth through the most formidable wrappings of false semblance and demeanour, and so little corrupted by sentimental prudery that it is equal to the even more difficult task of hauling that truth out into the light, in all its naked hideousness. Women decide

the larger questions of life correctly and quickly, not because they are lucky guessers, not because they are divinely inspired, not because they practise a magic inherited from savagery, but simply and solely because they have sense. They see at a glance what most men could not see with searchlights and telescopes; they are at grips with the essentials of a problem before men have finished debating its mere externals. They are the supreme realists of the race.

Apparently illogical, they are the possessors of a rare and subtle super-logic. Apparently whimsical, they hang to the truth with a tenacity which carries them through every phase of its incessant, jellylike shifting of form. Apparently unobservant and easily deceived, they see with bright and horrible eyes. In men, too, the same merciless perspicacity sometimes shows itself--men recognized

to be more aloof and uninflammable than the general--men of special talent for the logical--sardonic men, cynics. Men, too, sometimes have brains. But that is a rare, rare man, I venture, who is as steadily intelligent, as constantly sound in judgment, as little put off by appearances, as the average women of forty-eight.

 

--H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

[hagar]

Love this quote.

 

Intuition? With all respect, bosh! Then it was intuition that led Darwin to work out the hypothesis of natural selection.  Then it was intuition that fabricated the gigantically complex score of "Die Walkure." Then it was intuition that convinced Columbus of the existence of land to the west of the Azores.  All this intuition of

which so much transcendental rubbish is merchanted is no more and no less than intelligence--intelligence so keen that it can penetrate to the hidden truth through the most formidable wrappings of false semblance and demeanour, and so little corrupted by sentimental prudery that it is equal to the even more difficult task of hauling that truth out into the light, in all its naked hideousness.  Women decide

the larger questions of life correctly and quickly, not because they are lucky guessers, not because they are divinely inspired, not because they practise a magic inherited from savagery, but simply and solely because they have sense.  They see at a glance what most men could not see with searchlights and telescopes; they are at grips with the essentials of a problem before men have finished debating its mere externals.  They are the supreme realists of the race.

Apparently illogical, they are the possessors of a rare and subtle super-logic.  Apparently whimsical, they hang to the truth with a tenacity which carries them through every phase of its incessant, jellylike shifting of form.  Apparently unobservant and easily deceived, they see with bright and horrible eyes. In men, too, the same merciless perspicacity sometimes shows itself--men recognized

to be more aloof and uninflammable than the general--men of special talent for the logical--sardonic men, cynics.  Men, too, sometimes have brains.  But that is a rare, rare man, I venture, who is as steadily intelligent, as constantly sound in judgment, as little put off  by appearances, as the average women of forty-eight.

 

--H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

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Nice quote.

 

I really think women at the age of 48 have all the insight but none of the advantages here in life. Especially the single ones. They experience themselves being forced to look for a soulmate among immature and rigid men at the same age, or find themselves stepping aside to let men their own age marry women half their age.

 

Tough

 

h

[sean]

So the point of this quote is basically that one exceptional guy out of a million or so is brilliant enough to match woman's inherent genius? I'll have to think about that one. Will be hard though since me just average stoopid man.

[三江源]

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Edited April 18, 2015 by 三江源

[sean]

Still kungfused. No man can ever "match" a woman at what?

 

Let's complete the following sentence as specifically as possible:

 

In my opinion, humans born in male form cannot match humans born in female form at _______________.

 

I'll go first. Off the top of my head, and perhaps the most obvious:

 

In my opinion, humans born in male form cannot match humans born in female form at getting pregnant and giving physical birth to a child, given the confines of our present level of technology.

 

Sean.

[三江源]

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Edited April 18, 2015 by 三江源

[Lozen]

I didn't post that quote to try to diss men, though I do see how it could be taken that way. Sean and others are probably aware of my sort of old-fashioned views on men and women's roles, I unapologetically believe that women are better at nurturing. Can men nurture? Yup, if they have to. But not as well. And same with men as protectors. And I know some people would disagree with this. That's fine.

 

(I also believe that gender is in the soul, not the chromosomes, and in fact like I mentioned briefly on another list I'm on they are trying to decide whether or not transwomen would be welcome, and I can't believe it's even an issue.)

[Cameron]

Whatever..I can totally beat any woman at grappling, videogames and comic book knowledge.

 

*point of thread flies miles above head

[三江源]

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Edited April 18, 2015 by 三江源

[Lozen]

I bet Molly Helsel would kick yr ass.

 

I'm kidding, I'm kidding! Not. Okay, just kidding!

Not

 

KIDDING!

 

Whatever..I can totally beat any woman at grappling, videogames and comic book knowledge.

 

*point of argument flies miles above head

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[Cameron]

I would LET Kyra Gracie kick my ass.

 

Ok..she would probably kick my ass anyway she just got her black belt.

 

Hot chick that can grapple= My future wife.

[Lozen]

Hot chick that can grapple= My future wife.

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LOL, not much of a criteria there.

 

Anyways, I prefer Erica Montoya and Debbie Purcell.

[sean]

[Cameron]

Sean,

 

reminds me of something the late Phillip Kapleau Roshi wrote in one of his books I read years ago.

 

He was giving a lecture on zen and someone asked " I am Jewish, can I be Jewish and become enlightened?"

 

He said no as long as you have this attachment of being jewish you will never be enlightened.

 

I don't think he was implying one should trash one's inherent identity..whether it is being a Jew, a catholic, a Man or Woman or whatever..but Enlightenment from the Zen perspective is basically dropping the idea of a seperate self that stands in contrast to the rest of the universe . So from this perspective, any kind of egoic views that reinforce the strong sense of seperation from others " I AM A JEW", " I AM BLACK", etc..is contrary to the path..

 

Not saying this is right or wrong, truth or falsehood but one teachers perspective on the matter shared by one tradition(though probably many traditions).

 

Agree with or piss on it as you like..

[Lozen]

Interesting, I was just reading something Natalie Goldberg wrote on how the more she sits zazen, the more Jewish she feels. Her teacher at the time, I believe it was Katagiri Roshi told her that made perfect sense. By sitting, you are becoming more of what you already are.

 

I have some pretty strong feelings on this so I'll write more once I have it more sorted.

[Cameron]

I don't want to seem one sided so to add a bit to that...

 

I studied Zen with 2 female zen teachers that illucidated on Dharma in a way very unique and differently from men. So, definetly woman can come forth with there own unique expressions and point of views that men would not.

 

For example, many men tend to be competitive and testosteroe driven and this shows up somehow or another no matter how spiritual they say they are while woman may inherently have no desire to compete with others and thus probably can get the dharma easier.

 

Not saying all woman have no competitive drive I know woman that are at least as Yang, competitive and driven as men just the more yin, less edgy type female is the one that tends to be drawn to enlightenment practices.

 

But come to think of it I met a couple pretty agressive woman in zen and a HT workshop to so when you get down to it I think this debate is mute.

 

Probably thousands of years ago it was more cut and dry but these days you can find every type of variety of personality and Yin or yang traits(I would call intuition Yin and Intellect yang) so you can't label the wide generalization of " man" and "woman" and excpect it to be as defined.

 

Most of the said male/female differences are probably hormonal and not spiritual as sean said .My guess is if you pumped a woman up with enough testosteroe she would begin exhibiting more male charactersics and if you started giving a man more estrogen more female charactersitics.

 

Not that you should do that but the way medical science is these days you could be whatever the fuck you want if you wanted too bad enough.

[Cameron]

Interesting, I was just reading something Natalie Goldberg wrote on how the more she sits zazen, the more Jewish she feels. Her teacher at the time, I believe it was Katagiri Roshi told her that made perfect sense. By sitting, you are becoming more of what you already are.

 

I have some pretty strong feelings on this so I'll write more once I have it more sorted.

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That's interesting too. But that implies that there is something inherently " Jewish" about a Jewish person. Jewish people go back pretty deep and if anyone has experienced a strong sense of seperation resulting is suffering it is Arabs and Jews.

 

NOT saying it is there fault before you burst a blood vessel in your head

 

I come from a totally mixed family. I have people from the middle east mixed with english/ Irish...and potentially a little Jewish we don't know for sure..so I see myself as a mixture of all these things and ultimatly a mixture of EVERYTHING. I like most cultures and don't feel a strong overwheling pull towards one or the other.

 

But I know many people have this strong sense of identity that comes from there heritage and, personally, I don't have a problem with it.

 

Obviously the problem arises when you devleop this hatred towards another race like Jews have with the rest of the middle east which is based on this idea of 2 brothers from different mothers fighting with eachother and then carrying that fighting through anscestors for thousands of years.

 

I think that type of ego attachment is insane and alot of what the world has to resolve right now for there to be a better future.

[Cameron]

[Lozen]

Cameron, the idea that being Jewish is inherently about hating Palestinians frankly is ridiculous. I find your statement that Jews develop hatred toward the rest of the Middle East one-sided at best. Israel is fighting for their very existence. They are surrounded by enemies that are sworn to annihilating them. They understand the gravity of their situation.

 

As far as identity as attachment, well I do agree that at some point a common truth can be found between all people that goes beyond gender identity, race, etc. And I can certainly see the value of stepping outside of one's identity box and trying to relate to someone as a human being, instead of "I'm a New Yorker" or a businessman or a mother or soldier or whatever. And of course I think we have soul identities that go beyond this lifetime, that are influenced by more than the particular gender, race and body this soul has manifested in (not to mention external influences based on it.) BUT at the same time I think throwing away identity (if it were even possible) is a bad idea. The way tht I perceive and experience this world is based on my identity. It colors everything about us and you can't really entirely get rid of it. You ARE it. Not to mention that I don't necessarily agree with the premise that identity is attachment or that attachment causes suffering! In my life, more suffering has been caused by trying to deny or hide my identity.

 

As far as men and women, well gosh I see this as pretty clear cut. I always go to women for nurturing and healing. I don't seek out men for that, I seek out men for protection and respite. They are better at it. Of course there are exceptions and I know men that nurture fairly well, but it's different... and I know women who can kick ass and take names, but the quality of it is different. I'm sure most people reading this will disagree, but I think equality is illusionary at best. Nobody ever said life was fair or easy. I feel like denying my role as a woman takes me off track. And yeah I do believe women are more intuitive than men, for a wide variety of reasons--one being the inherent cycles in our bodies due to menstruation, along with other things, chemicals, the way our brain works (again scientifically proven) hell they even did some studies I read about that indicated that women do not get fight/flight reactions as often as men do, because they get another reaction--which is to discuss their problems with other women. This isn't something I had to read a study about to believe in, I just always knew.

 

Of course there are women that are vacant, but I'm thinking of my old friend's exgirlfriend who was a model...hated reading, would walk out of the room when her boyfriend and I would talk politics, philosophy, etc. Still she had this uncanny ability to tell when a situation or person was in trouble, could sense what people were like very easily, etc. Obviously I don't know what it's like to be a man, but I know when we get all women together, the energy is different, we relate to one another on an intuitive/perceptual level differently than I relate to men. I think I read some kind of article-very scientific, so you would like it Sean , that discussed women being able to feel a wider variety of emotion than men, they feel things much more deeply. This is why I like being around men that can make quick decisions. I think men are better at making decisions, they can make the damn decision while I am still vacillating between emotional extremes. I'm certainly not trying to deny men the opportunity of experiencing ridiculously strong emotions, I just don't think it comes as naturally to them. You see this play out amongst teenage couples, even, girls will say their boyfriends are "distant" (read: able to make quick detached decisions) and boys will say their girlfriends are "moody" (read: vacillating between emotional extremes). I have found in my life that it makes a lot of sense to tap into what it means for me to be a woman rather than trying to deny it and pretend that it's not there and try to be androgynous.

 

So when I train in martial arts, I am training as a woman, keeping in mind my center is different than a man's, I will execute the moves differently (usu. more fluidly) and even when it is filled with strength, the strength has a different tone to it. In fact one of the things I like about TCM and qi gong is that it acknowledges the difference between men and women--the exercises are different in qi gong, which hand you put on top, etc...and TCM deals specifically with physical/energetic issues that women experience, and realize that yin and yang manifest differently in men than they do in women. And of course TCM has a huge myriad of dysfunctions that can apply to different people and express themselves differently in individuals, whether they are men or women.

 

I hardly think that perceiving myself or identifying as a woman is an ego attachment or is causing destruction int he world. It works for me. It is what helps me keep my head on straight and figure out how to best serve others, which I really see as the root and heart and purpose of my path.

[Cameron]

I am glad you wrote this because I was just about to write that the shit I just wrote is in itself only a half truth. I still think you defiently should value whatever you are .There is a reason we have traditions and obviously you are a man or woman and should respect that and your own uniquness.

 

I defnietly was not implying ALL jews hate middle easterners. No way was I saying that. I was using that as one(out of probably hundreds of exapmples going on today) of wars and fighting going on becasue of a percieved difference that is BASED ON EGO.

 

Religion is all Ego .It is MY religion. It is MY GOD.

 

What are these people really fighting about..nothing..a man made creation..it is a waste of life and hopefully thousands of years from now humanity will look back on us with this same wonder as we look back on the Mayan tribes that would sacrifice people to there " Gods" or Romans who would watch gladitiators kill eachother for entertainment.

 

That's all.

[sean]

[Cameron]

I was joking around with a friend that we are all basically the same and share this little planet and can't get along . We have spent the better part of known history fighting each other . And maybe the reason Aliens( I have to say Aliens exist just look how big the universe is it's only rational) don't communicate with us openly is because we havent learned to get along with eachother.

 

Like maybe we have to get to the point where there are no more wars and senseless killing and care more about eachother and figure out how to take care of people and not feed the greed and power.

 

Then maybe those more advanced beings will be like " Ok, there ready".

 

Maybe we are the RJ's of the Universe and have been banned from the really high shit because we are just so ignorant.

 

Or maybe I am wrong and it's just late...

[sean]

Lozen, just wanted to say I liked your post a lot. (I read it after my post above). I think in a way we are just approaching a truth from different perceptual positions. I am attempting to speak about reality from positions closer to what I am imagine the Absolute to comprise, whereeas you are speaking more pragmatically from the eyes of your accumulated experience as a person.

 

I do want to comment on one thing though:

As far as men and women, well gosh I see this as pretty clear cut. I always go to women for nurturing and healing. I don't seek out men for that, I seek out men for protection and respite. They are better at it. Of course there are exceptions and I know men that nurture fairly well, but it's different... and I know women who can kick ass and take names, but the quality of it is different.

Personally, I don't see the qualities of nurturing and protection as being intrinsic to being male and female. This get's into the age long nature vs. nurture of course. But if you think about it, human behavior is mostly running on software these days. Software taught to us by our family and cultural traditions. If you stick a few babies in the woods they are just not even going to survive much less have the male baby grow up in some inborn protective role and the female in a nurturing role. It's been shown over and over in studies that male and female babies are treated drastically different by, for example, babysitters who are misled about the actual gender of the child. I mean just really simple stuff, like the boy is given a toy truck and pushed away to go play with it and the girl is nuzzled and spoken softly to. So of course there are going to be statistical differences in gender, but I think intrinsic distinctions between men and women outside of the physically obvious are a bit more elusive. Sure we have different hardware but you can draw the same picture on a chalkboard that you can in the sand. It's the androgynous mind and soul that are breathe life into the body. So honestly, to my ears, saying "women are more intuitive" hits me the same way as if I heard someone saying "black people can sing and play basketball". Maybe (maybe) it's a useful generalization in some contexts, but I think in the big picture it's just a perceptual limitation.

 

Sean.

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[sean]

Cool post freeform. Your latter point is exactly why I found the patterns in Structure of Magic so profound.

 

Person A: Men are protective

Person B: What are men protective of?

A: Men are protective of women.

B: All men are protective of all women?

A: Uhh, well, no not really I guess.

B: Which men are protective of who or what?

A: Well ... John in my math class is protective.

B: Who or what is John protective of?

A: John is protective of me.

B: How is John protective of you?

A: Well ... when Tim says mean comments to me, John sticks up for me.

B: How does John stick up for you?

 

etc..

 

Through this process, the distorted generalizations of your surface structure connect with the actual visceral experience of your deep structure and beyond. Then I think you can't help but be humbled by how ridiculous it is to try to take the data from your perceptions as one single person in one single context and extrapolate sweeping judgements about entire genders, races, countries, etc. Giant beliefs like "women are emotional", "men are selfish", blah blah blah ad nauseum are rarely based around a quantitative study outside your own experience with maybe a few hundred people in your own country, in your own neighborhood, in your own family. Which is fine. We need labels to communicate and generalizations help simplify our life. But it's important to see things for what they are. Generalizations are just confessions of your personal experiences and the way you've organized them into filters. They are not an actual insight into the inherent properties of reality IMO.

 

Sean.