Science and Acupuncture / Chiense Medicine

[11:33]

Hey so I thought since we have such a nice thread going about qigong and science it would be nice to start a similar thread about Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture.

 

See, I have wanted to possibly go to school to become a Chinese Doctor, but I'm not even sure it works! Do any of you have experience treating any diseases with Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture? And, more importantly, do any of you have information about research in the Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture field(s)?

[松永道]

Hey so I thought since we have such a nice thread going about qigong and science it would be nice to start a similar thread about Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture.

 

See, I have wanted to possibly go to school to become a Chinese Doctor, but I'm not even sure it works! Do any of you have experience treating any diseases with Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture? And, more importantly, do any of you have information about research in the Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture field(s)?

 

TCM doesn't fit well into the western model of laboratory testing, nor the western medical business model for that matter (you can't patent plants or techniques).

 

That said there are quite a few interesting studies out there. Look for some of the ones on animal testing. Regardless the ethical issues, acupuncture success with rats, etc certainly rules out the placebo effect (though the placebo is anything to be scoffed at either).

 

Most of the best journals are Chinese or Japanese, though some of the articles get translated over.

 

As for what I've seen, in my teacher's clinic over here, he's helped patients cure diabetes, high-blood pressure, high cholesterol, cancer, and infertility to name a few. I had another professor back in the states who became a CM doctor because of his experience curing testicular cancer through herbs, acupuncture, and qigong.

 

Another problem introducing TCM to America is people (edit: ie patients) lack the attention span, commitment, and ability to endure hardship for healing (ie pain from needles, bitter medicines, boiling medicines, etc). Real cure requires real commitment. The gongfu mantra applies equally to medicine, "xian ku, hou tian" - first bitter, then sweet.

 

SYD

Edited June 22, 2009 by 松永道

[11:33]

Well for me, the thing is, I don't want to commit to a long training if it doesn't work, lol.

[松永道]

Well for me, the thing is, I don't want to commit to a long training if it doesn't work, lol.

 

Chinese Buddhism has a pair of terms, Shi Yan and Shi Ren. Shi Ren literally means loose the person. Shi Yan means loose the words. To "loose the person" means miss an opportunity to share helpful words. To "loose the words" means to speak upon unwilling, unable or otherwise closed ears.

 

...

 

If you're genuinely interested, go prove it for yourself. Otherwise don't bother. The medical path, traditional and modern both, requires a great deal of commitment. And they share another commonality - occasionally, they just don't work.

[Josh Young]

It works, but not always.

Consider that no drug can do better than that.

 

People use acupuncture for anesthesia in many areas, for surgery and dental work. You can't do this if it is fake.

 

The explanations given for why it works are often silly. Who cares why when what matters is that it does work for many people.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Josh Young

[11:33]

It works, but not always.

Consider that no drug can do better than that.

 

People use acupuncture for anesthesia in many areas, for surgery and dental work. You can't do this if it is fake.

 

The explanations given for why it works are often silly. Who cares why when what matters is that it does work for many people.

 

The explanation is only silly if you have some doubt about the flow of qi through the meridians.

 

But to me it working for anesthesia is not what Chinese Medicine is billed as. It's billed as a complete system of rebalancing the body to recover and prevent man, many, many diseases.

[Ramon25]

Dude if you can feel the chi in your body the way that chinsese medicince describes it then why do you doubt it? Either you are crazy or its real. I guess that's for you to decide. You are letting your mind an heart go to war over what the science is saying and what your heart knows to be true. TONS of people visit chinese doctors and chinese doctors themselves devote their lives to it. Do you think that many of these doctors and patients care about what western science is telling them? Also do you think that ALL these first hand stories we hear about are fake? Like the story from the person on this thread. EVEN if you somehow got this "concrete proof" you are searching for it would be pointless as the only way that you could practically practice the ART and understand the diagnostic process would be through the ancient discription. Hence what is it that you are searching for?. QI is its own science. A science of feeling, percieving, understanding nature on a deeper level that is thousands of years old, hence it will have it's power and weaknesses in the modern world, But it is WHAT it is. I guess you are going to have to decide where your loyalty lies. With your belly and heart or your mind.

I wish you luck

[11:33]

Dude if you can feel the chi in your body the way that chinsese medicince describes it then why do you doubt it? Either you are crazy or its real. I guess that's for you to decide. You are letting your mind an heart go to war over what the science is saying and what your heart knows to be true. TONS of people visit chinese doctors and chinese doctors themselves devote their lives to it. Do you think that many of these doctors and patients care about what western science is telling them? Also do you think that ALL these first hand stories we hear about are fake? Like the story from the person on this thread. EVEN if you somehow got this "concrete proof" you are searching for it would be pointless as the only way that you could practically practice the ART and understand the diagnostic process would be through the ancient discription. Hence what is it that you are searching for?. QI is its own science. A science of feeling, percieving, understanding nature on a deeper level that is thousands of years old, hence it will have it's power and weaknesses in the modern world, But it is WHAT it is. I guess you are going to have to decide where your loyalty lies. With your belly and heart or your mind.

I wish you luck

 

Feeling qi doesn't mean that every aspect of Chinese Medicine is accurate!

 

My loyalty lies with reason. Because the belly can always be confirmed with reason. So there's no real reason to rely strictly on intuition.

[Ramon25]

Hey man I am all for reason but not at the cost of intuition. I am quoting you. You said that you can feel qi pretty much the way chinese medicine describes it in another thread. I do not agree you cannot always confirm intuition with reason, it has it's limitations. And to rely soley on reason fly's in the face of daoist philiosophy and spirituality in general. Reason is addictive and can steal your soul if you let it. I know I have been there and lost it to the realm of science and reason before. It took quite a emotional shock to get it back. My point with the chi and chinese medicine. These people have studied this phenomena for thousands of years devoting lives and genarations to it. Lets just say that some type of chi is found, What if its an incopmlete picture and chi manifest itself in a different form and has effects that we again cant measure. Instead of relying ONLY on a science that is still ian infant to catch up wht not accept what has been percieved over thousands of years? It makes no sense to me. You accept it or you do not. Everyone is treathing the sceientific method as if it has dibs on everything. yeah sure it can make a computer because it is a machine that must and can be reduced to its indivdual components. The body is NOT in anyway the same thing. the universe is not either. science is good at making things and understanding how material things function "as individual components.. Qi as it has always been said is etherial nad integral. Anyway I guess it just really does not make much sense to me. Why so called daoist want to separate chi and reduce it to its small components. Some things are about art.

[11:33]

Hey man I am all for reason but not at the cost of intuition. I am quoting you. You said that you can feel qi pretty much the way chinese medicine describes it in another thread. I do not agree you cannot always confirm intuition with reason, it has it's limitations. And to rely soley on reason fly's in the face of daoist philiosophy and spirituality in general. Reason is addictive and can steal your soul if you let it. I know I have been there and lost it to the realm of science and reason before. It took quite a emotional shock to get it back. My point with the chi and chinese medicine. These people have studied this phenomena for thousands of years devoting lives and genarations to it. Lets just say that some type of chi is found, What if its an incopmlete picture and chi manifest itself in a different form and has effects that we again cant measure. Instead of relying ONLY on a science that is still ian infant to catch up wht not accept what has been percieved over thousands of years? It makes no sense to me. You accept it or you do not. Everyone is treathing the sceientific method as if it has dibs on everything. yeah sure it can make a computer because it is a machine that must and can be reduced to its indivdual components. The body is NOT in anyway the same thing. the universe is not either. science is good at making things and understanding how material things function "as individual components.. Qi as it has always been said is etherial nad integral. Anyway I guess it just really does not make much sense to me. Why so called daoist want to separate chi and reduce it to its small components. Some things are about art.

 

I don't agree with this: "I do not agree you cannot always confirm intuition with reason"

 

I also think you have some kind of contorted idea of what science means. Science means the application of the scientific method. Nothing more.

 

It's cool.

 

If you were considering spending $39000 on school you might ask some questions too. It's always a simpler matter when you don't have a much on the line.

 

You're mentioning a bunch of stuff about qi that's not really important. I just would like to hear about science and Chinese Medicine. Qi exists != Chinese Medicine works well. There's sooooo much to Chinese Medicine.

 

Anyhow, I've taken 松永道's experience into account; duly noted.

 

I wonder what you have against the scientific method. To me it is merely the crystalization of the same logical reasoning processes I use on a daily basis. I've got a ton of respect for the scientific method. You may not, but I suspect you really just don't respect the stupid scientists. I wade through science, I don't just take it on face value. I like to look into the studies to see if they make sense to me. I like it. And I'm selfish like that.

 

Peace.

[Squatting Monkey]

Do any of you have experience treating any diseases with Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture?

 

There have been 3 occasions when we as a family have used TCM acupuncture. Every time it has been a huge success.

1. My wife was suffering with pretty bad sciatica when pregnant with our second son. A little needling and the pain was eased considerably.

2. I have suffered with hay fever for nearly 20 years and the prescription drugs can only help me in reducing some of the uncomfortable symptoms. After a treatment of acupuncture (which was a fantastic experience), I never had any hay fever for the entire summer.

3. My wife has also had a low immune system after an operation years ago. Virtually every cold and virus that was doing the rounds, she got. Again after some needling, she has never had any problems since.

 

So from our point of view, acupuncture works. I would recommend it to anyone who has given up on any other type of conventional treatment.

SM

[松永道]

I wonder what you have against the scientific method. To me it is merely the crystalization of the same logical reasoning processes I use on a daily basis. I've got a ton of respect for the scientific method. You may not, but I suspect you really just don't respect the stupid scientists. I wade through science, I don't just take it on face value. I like to look into the studies to see if they make sense to me. I like it. And I'm selfish like that.

 

Personally, I think scientific method is one of the great, defining philosophies of the modern age. But, it also has it's limitations. More particularly, we have our limitations in how we can apply it.

 

You say, "Feeling qi doesn't mean that every aspect of Chinese Medicine is accurate!"

 

I agree.

 

And the same can be applied to the relationship between scientific method and western medicine. Feeling Qi is actually the greatest foundation one can have going into the study of Chinese medicine. Personal cultivation, transforming your own body into an instrument and laboratory is the essence of Chinese medicine. This, combined with clinical empirical evidence, is how Chinese medicine developed over the past 5,000 years. In actuality, they have used and continue to use the scientific method. Starting with theory, a hypothesis, Doctors conducted experiments (clinical trials), analyzed the results, and modified theories. The main difference is just how experiments were conducted. In the case of Chinese medicine, they treat individual people, not diseases. It can also be prohibitively slow. And finally, the medicine places a huge emphasis on prevention, potentially decades before a disease significantly manifests - which owing to the aforementioned individuality of the patient, is nearly impossible to test.

 

Do I think every aspect of Chinese medicine is accurate? Of course not. But it can provide a terrific foundation and vocabulary for the Qi experience (indeed, TCM theory is the foundation of higher neigong theories). It is a tool that can structure and communicate your experience and be used to help others in the process. It also opens the doors to a 5,000 year old learning community (especially if you learn to read the classics in Chinese) for further contemplation and personal improvement.

 

Keep you skepticism. Seriously. Blind faith is dangerous zealotry no matter the philosophy. Just trust personal experience - it is your first and only laboratory. And any philosophy is empty without it.

 

SYD

[11:33]

*bump*

[Baguakid]

I have experienced tcm for many years. Acupuncture, Tuina, Qigong, herbs, etc. From my experience, yes, it works but a person's behavior also needs to change in order to have complete results.

 

I'm talking about whole body and diet, life style changes.

 

What are you trying to do? Tonify kidneys, reduce heat, dampness, etc. I have found that through diet (acid/alkaline) and qigong exercises (to remove bad qi, to build kidneys, to stimulate metabolism (stomach/spleen) is better than TCM in the long run. But, that person needs to adhere to these practices.

 

If a patient wants to get better the doctor needs to guide them in that direction. I have found this lacking in most TCM doctors.

 

It seems Chinese feel they don't want to disrupt a patient's lifestyle.

 

Just my (experienced) opinion.

[Taoist81]

Hey so I thought since we have such a nice thread going about qigong and science it would be nice to start a similar thread about Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture.

 

See, I have wanted to possibly go to school to become a Chinese Doctor, but I'm not even sure it works! Do any of you have experience treating any diseases with Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture? And, more importantly, do any of you have information about research in the Chinese Medicine / Acupuncture field(s)?

 

 

First off, it is very wise of you too question before jumping into studying TCM in school. You will continue to (if you are smart) as long as you study it.

 

Now, credentials: this poster, graduated in Dec. and has completed 3 of the 4 NCCAOM exams (the fourth will be soon).

 

Yes. The poster has experience with the effective use of TCM in treating a number of ailments (from musculoskeletal to common cold). It has its strengths and weaknesses, and in many cases works best with (gasp!) western medicine. For example, our school runs clinics with many of the hospitals here in Houston to treat cancer patients undergoing chemo. Western medicine is absolutely necessary for their cancer (yes, the hospitals have looked into Qigong therapy, but it hasn't caught on or proven itself yet), but Western meds fail in "treating" the effects of the chemo. Infertility is the same way, one clinic here has MD's referring patients to them because TCM improves the success rates of the IVF treatments they do.

 

If you want to look into studies a decent resource is pubmed.gov. You can search acupuncture or chinese herbs or whatever with any number of problems and see which ones there is significant success with and which ones there hasn't been. Good luck.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Taoist81

[thehatinthecat]

First off, it is very wise of you too question before jumping into studying TCM in school. You will continue to (if you are smart) as long as you study it.

 

Now, credentials: this poster, graduated in Dec. and has completed 3 of the 4 NCCAOM exams (the fourth will be soon).

 

Yes. The poster has experience with the effective use of TCM in treating a number of ailments (from musculoskeletal to common cold). It has its strengths and weaknesses, and in many cases works best with (gasp!) western medicine. For example, our school runs clinics with many of the hospitals here in Houston to treat cancer patients undergoing chemo.

If you want to look into studies a decent resource is pubmed.gov. You can search acupuncture or chinese herbs or whatever with any number of problems and see which ones there is significant success with and which ones there hasn't been. Good luck.

Which school did you go to Taoist81? I'm about to start at Midwest College of Oriental Medicine in Chicago. I'm not sure about the more esoteric aspects TCM, such as Qi actually be an energy as opposed to a bodies chemical response to the treatment(s). But I do enjoy the idea of Qi as energy, and I think that much more study on TCM needs to be done in the West.

[11:33]

thehatinthecat,

 

Qi is energy, I can feel it. Just thought you could benefit from a personal testimonial.

 

Also, qi can be transmitted out of the hands/fingers, how can it do that if it isn't energy? Talk to YaMu about it, he is a skilled qigong therapist.

 

I have experienced tcm for many years. Acupuncture, Tuina, Qigong, herbs, etc. From my experience, yes, it works but a person's behavior also needs to change in order to have complete results.

 

I'm talking about whole body and diet, life style changes.

I agree with the diet part especially. You can't feed the body Triskets, canned baked beans, french fries and Twinkies every day and expect some needles to make you healthy. I'm very into nutrition actually.

 

What are you trying to do? Tonify kidneys, reduce heat, dampness, etc. I have found that through diet (acid/alkaline) and qigong exercises (to remove bad qi, to build kidneys, to stimulate metabolism (stomach/spleen) is better than TCM in the long run. But, that person needs to adhere to these practices.

I am not trying to do anything personally, only trying to learn if Chinese Medicine Doctor is a viable path for me.

 

If a patient wants to get better the doctor needs to guide them in that direction. I have found this lacking in most TCM doctors.

 

It seems Chinese feel they don't want to disrupt a patient's lifestyle.

 

Just my (experienced) opinion.

Yes, I don't feel good about not disrupting peoples' lives. I want to tell them to change their diet etc... However I see this as a potential reason not to get into the field. If people expect to not have to change their lifestyle I'd rather not even pursue the profession.

 

Lots to think about...

 

Thanks.

Edited June 24, 2009 by 11:33

[Taoist81]

Which school did you go to Taoist81? I'm about to start at Midwest College of Oriental Medicine in Chicago. I'm not sure about the more esoteric aspects TCM, such as Qi actually be an energy as opposed to a bodies chemical response to the treatment(s). But I do enjoy the idea of Qi as energy, and I think that much more study on TCM needs to be done in the West.

 

It sounds like we are in the same boat thought-process-wise. Qi is certainly "experienced" as energy, but it seems more and more likely that it is just a good way to describe a complex innumerable set of processes, chemicals and neurological effects that despite being varied end up working together for a given result.... easier to just say "qi" : ) More research does need to be done, but it seems less and less likely that "qi" will ever be directly detected. Who knows though.

 

American College of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine.

[Baguakid]

Oh, 11:33, I wasn't directing that at you (the "What are you trying to do" comment). It was rhetorical.

[11:33]

Oh, 11:33, I wasn't directing that at you (the "What are you trying to do" comment). It was rhetorical.

Yeah, I figured that out after posting it

 

Check out my edit to the above post, at the top of the post.

[DaoChild]

Qi is certainly "experienced" as energy, but it seems more and more likely that it is just a good way to describe a complex innumerable set of processes, chemicals and neurological effects that despite being varied end up working together for a given result.... easier to just say "qi" : )

 

I agree -- this is probably the most evolved understanding of Qi that I personally agree with and have come upon.

[11:33]

I agree -- this is probably the most evolved understanding of Qi that I personally agree with and have come upon.

Evolved...? Or inaccurate? For one how does this view of qi explain energy transmission (qi being transmitted out of the body)?

[Ramon25]

God dammit people! The physical body is a manifestation of the etheric body and vice versa! They are integral. Soooooo it is both of the things stated above.

[Taoist81]

Evolved...? Or inaccurate? For one how does this view of qi explain energy transmission (qi being transmitted out of the body)?

 

From the psychological perspective. For example, when Darren Brown "converted" a room full of atheists he domonstrated his ability to "pull the spirit" through a guy with his back turned to him. The mind itself is a lot more powerful than most people give it credit for. So far no one has demonstrated the regular ability (i.e. in a lab setting) to affect inanimate objects with qi without touching it.

 

That said, there is no point in arguing or even debating over what amounts, in practice, to semantics. Many "qi based" practices (acupuncture etc.) acheive their results whether or not one "believes" in qi. Figuring out whether one is "experiencing" something too complex to describe as energy, or actually experiencing an otherwise undetectable energy as energy is a fruitless waste of qing qi. The fact remains that the treatment is (or in some cases is not) effective.

 

God dammit people! The physical body is a manifestation of the etheric body and vice versa! They are integral. Soooooo it is both of the things stated above.

 

: ) The physical and etheric bodies may be manifestations of each other, but the only one that can be tested by anyone other than you is the physical one. So, all we can be "sure" of is the physical.

[Ramon25]