Science and Acupuncture / Chiense Medicine

[DaoChild]

Evolved...? Or inaccurate? For one how does this view of qi explain energy transmission (qi being transmitted out of the body)?

 

Again, I'm not sure.

 

Maybe perhaps both evolved and inaccurate. Obvious Qi has to have properties in order for the ancients to have studied it.

 

Maybe Qi is transmitted via pheromones

 

Honestly, I'm looking for the same answers you are. Once I feel a distant Qi transmission, then I'll start searching for an answer.

 

Any Qigong practitioners out there that wouldn't mind doing a distant healing, and sending me a SLAP to the face of Qi? That'd be a good reason for me to further investigate, haha

[Ramon25]

Again, I'm not sure.

 

Maybe perhaps both evolved and inaccurate. Obvious Qi has to have properties in order for the ancients to have studied it.

 

Maybe Qi is transmitted via pheromones

 

Honestly, I'm looking for the same answers you are. Once I feel a distant Qi transmission, then I'll start searching for an answer.

 

Any Qigong practitioners out there that wouldn't mind doing a distant healing, and sending me a SLAP to the face of Qi? That'd be a good reason for me to further investigate, haha

 

Send me a picture or a name. After i meditate and have some juice I send you some chi. I am not by any means a pro but I can do it. I have healed my wife and sent her energy where she like this is to much.

[billb]

I have a kidney problem and have tried TCM. My experience has been that the herbal medicine was much better than acupuncture, but maybe I will see another practitioner for acupuncture in the future. Also check out Tibetan herbal medicine, as for me it was much more effective than TCM. The acupuncture was in a group setting and sitting down where they work on the feet, hands, arms and head points, and did not feel a whole lot.

[松永道]

Yes. The poster has experience with the effective use of TCM in treating a number of ailments (from musculoskeletal to common cold). It has its strengths and weaknesses, and in many cases works best with (gasp!) western medicine. For example, our school runs clinics with many of the hospitals here in Houston to treat cancer patients undergoing chemo. Western medicine is absolutely necessary for their cancer (yes, the hospitals have looked into Qigong therapy, but it hasn't caught on or proven itself yet), but Western meds fail in "treating" the effects of the chemo.

 

For the most part, I agree, Chinese medicine must work alongside western medicine.

 

However, I certainly wouldn't say western medicine is absolutely necessary for treating cancer. Chinese medicine can, has, and continues to bring cancer cases into remission and even completely cure. However, the doctors who have done this tend to be the Lao Zhongyi (the old doctors) and I haven't heard of a single one who has treated cancer without at least some use of herbs. Nevertheless, Western medicine is the Law in the US - work with it, or don't work. And certainly western medicine is better for certain, especially fast acting and dramatic, treatments.

 

It's funny, in America, most people think of acupuncture first when they think of CM. But in Chinese practice, herbs are used for the bulk of internal problems (though acupuncture may be used in concert for even better effect).

[松永道]

I have a kidney problem and have tried TCM. My experience has been that the herbal medicine was much better than acupuncture, but maybe I will see another practitioner for acupuncture in the future. Also check out Tibetan herbal medicine, as for me it was much more effective than TCM. The acupuncture was in a group setting and sitting down where they work on the feet, hands, arms and head points, and did not feel a whole lot.

 

Results can vary quite a bit depending on the practitioner. Experience often plays a much greater role as well. As a rule, you'll get a better effect from a more experienced doctor.

 

Personally, I think the idea of a community clinic is great for a young, inexperienced practitioner. They're cheap, can see a larger volume of patients, and can still get results. For acupuncture to really be effective, most disease patterns require treatment at least 2 if not 3 times a week. In a inexpensive, community setting, more people can do that.

[DaoChild]

Right -- I agree with the herbs portion.

 

Herbs make sense though, in a western science sense.

 

Herbs have alkaloids, toxins, tannins , etc. All "real" and measurable. Cardiac stimulants will damage or affect your heart whether or not you believe in them.

[Ramon25]

It seems like the meridians really are electrical phenomena. So if anything it would simply imrpove communication between the organs and with the nervous system. So to "stimulate" the electrical signals the organ is recieving and giving and possibly cleansing emotional chemical messengers that may have affinitys for these electircal circuits and or organs. sooooo as a consequense I do not think it is a cure all on its own. How many of the study's done really comebine qi gung, breathing exercises, herbal medicine AND acupuncture prescribed By a EXPERIENCED TCM practioner. remember it has always been several things used to treat patients not just acupunture alone! If this paper below is correct it seems Stimulating the elctrical pathways (by the way electricity is PROVEN to be ONE OF THE main healing agent's in the body) Then it would probably not be enough on its OWN for most maladies BUT in conjuction with everthing else gives that little extra on an electrical level to promote healing. Herbs work on the chemical, breath and chigung work onm the physical and Archetype's assciated with the body (I think TCM works through archetypes aswell).

hey guys really read this! its a little dense though. http://www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.php

You know most of the acupoints are found between the muscles inside the connective tissue.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Ramon25

[DaoChild]

Stimulating the elctrical pathways (by the way electricity is PROVEN to be ONE OF THE main healing agent's in the body)

You know most of the acupoints are found between the muscles inside the connective tissue.

 

What do you mean electricity is proven to be one of the healing agents of the body? Could you elaborate, and or point me to some links?

 

Additionally, if the meridians WERE "electricity" based, or were found on the electromagnetic spectrum, we would've figured it out by now since we can measure different bands along that spectrum.

[Taoist81]

It seems like the meridians really are electrical phenomena. So if anything it would simply imrpove communication between the organs and with the nervous system. So to "stimulate" the electrical signals the organ is recieving and giving and possibly cleansing emotional chemical messengers that may have affinitys for these electircal circuits and or organs. sooooo as a consequense I do not think it is a cure all on its own. How many of the study's done really comebine qi gung, breathing exercises, herbal medicine AND acupuncture prescribed By a EXPERIENCED TCM practioner. remember it has always been several things used to treat patients not just acupunture alone! If this paper below is correct it seems Stimulating the elctrical pathways (by the way electricity is PROVEN to be ONE OF THE main healing agent's in the body) Then it would probably not be enough on its OWN for most maladies BUT in conjuction with everthing else gives that little extra on an electrical level to promote healing. Herbs work on the chemical, breath and chigung work onm the physical and Archetype's assciated with the body (I think TCM works through archetypes aswell).

hey guys really read this! its a little dense though. http://www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.php

You know most of the acupoints are found between the muscles inside the connective tissue.

 

First off, yes, there is concern among many TCM practitioners about how studies are conducted. Both on the front of having untrained Chiropractor's and MD's performing bad treatments (you may or may not be surprised how many patients have "tried acupuncture" with no effect and been turned off by it because of some Chiropractor who took a few hours of needling technique). On the other hand lots of "research" has been done in China with little or no real controls. Hospitals wanting to partner with TCM for research have had problems with lack of proper protocols as well as research funds "going missing" in the "People's" Republic.

 

As for electricity, it has been shown to be an effective pain treatment in some cases, and can, again, in some cases, assist with acupuncture. But calling it a "proven" and "main healing agent" is oversimplifying in the extreme. Likewise calling meridians "electrical" is greatly oversimplifying. There has been evidence presented that the galvanic response is different over acupoints than over non-acupoint areas of the skin, but, frankly, that just doesn't cover the scope of acupuncture's effects. It is worth noting that galvanic response is highly "responsive" to many things, like emotion, so, it may be (and likely is) simply a corrolation, not evidence of causation or evidence that "qi" is electrical.

 

Your Archetype idea is interesting, from a psychology perspective, and your comment on acupoints and connective tissue is in line with some recent research on the most effective "location" of some of the points.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Taoist81

[thehatinthecat]

God dammit people! The physical body is a manifestation of the etheric body and vice versa! They are integral. Soooooo it is both of the things stated above.

Of course it would be intresting if Qi ended up reacting like light. IE being waves and/or particales at the same time depending on what you were messuring for. Perhappes that is what is happening to many of the Western researchers are exspecting it not to be there so it doesn't show up, and vice versa.

[Ramon25]

Dao child read the link I put up then tell me what you think. Alos check ouy a book called the "The Body Electric" It basically explains how the healing response is mitigated by electrcity. This researcher himself is famous for his work on regenaration. he also did study;s for the governement regarding acuprssure points and found them to have special electrical properties. SOOOOO the points have been measured SEVERAL times by many DIFFERENT researcher's in the east and the west. But even if it had not, It is absolutley not true that "we would have found it by now" sense we learn more and more about the bosy and things we did not even know were there. What Is being said in most study's is acupunture's effectivness verse fae acupuncture. First in chine when the DOC sticks you he also uses Chi in the needle. Also we do not always know how the condition was diagnosed (in the study's) and how it was done ect... Maybe if the study's were on actual ENTIRE treatment of TCM by an expeirined doc VS a complete sham treatment or On herbs without accupuncture or a western treatment ECT... they have not taken real care on researching this subject.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Ramon25

[11:33]

* BUMP *

 

Anyone else have science info regarding acupuncture and Chinese Medicine on a whole? I am still trying to decide if there is enough merit in the system to consider investing in an education in it...

[Aetherous]

11:33, there is some good info here contained in the various articles: http://www.itmonline.org/articles.htm

[11:33]

Thx, Scotty.

 

I'll have to check those out.

[DaoChild]

* BUMP *

 

Anyone else have science info regarding acupuncture and Chinese Medicine on a whole? I am still trying to decide if there is enough merit in the system to consider investing in an education in it...

 

Rather than worrying about the science behind it, why not speak to people in the community, online, and to TCM practitioners (And MDs!) to see what they have experienced? If they have said "yeah it worked great for me.." then maybe you'll have the impetus you need.

 

I'm also considering school for an O.M.D. -- 5 years year round is a lot of training to go through. It would be incredible and fascinating, but obviously not if I didn't realize it didn't fix things.

[Ya Mu]

* BUMP *

 

Anyone else have science info regarding acupuncture and Chinese Medicine on a whole? I am still trying to decide if there is enough merit in the system to consider investing in an education in it...

 

Enough merit to consider an education in it? Is there enough merit in western medicine for you to consider an education in it? Is there enough merit in chiropractic for you to consider an education in it?

 

The truth is somewhere in between. All these forms have merit; none of these forms will address everything.

 

What do YOU feel attracted to? THAT is what I would suggest you follow!

 

To other poster about archetype in qigong therapy. Nope.

 

To guy who asks someone to project qi to him so he can decide if it is worth investigating. Huh? This would make you decide it was worth investigating?

[Ramon25]

No archetype huh. So the dragon, tiger, archer, hands in the stream ect.. forms in zhan zuang are not archetypes? Ocean breathing-not an archetype? The five animal frolics? bagua and circle walking as representing the I ching and the universe? the yin and yang symbol? Pushing away heaven and earth? For godsake the whole of taosim is archetype's! I could go on forever and metion a hundred more. CARL JUNG studied taoism and it helped form his theory. Either you dot fully understand archetypes (which regarless of what they are called, DO INDEED HAVE REAL POWER!) or you are in denial. Becuas archetypes are at the heart pf taoism.

[Ya Mu]

No archetype huh. So the dragon, tiger, archer, hands in the stream ect.. forms in zhan zuang are not archetypes? Ocean breathing-not an archetype? The five animal frolics? bagua and circle walking as representing the I ching and the universe? the yin and yang symbol? Pushing away heaven and earth? For godsake the whole of taosim is archetype's! I could go on forever and metion a hundred more. CARL JUNG studied taoism and it helped form his theory. Either you dot fully understand archetypes (which regarless of what they are called, DO INDEED HAVE REAL POWER!) or you are in denial. Becuas archetypes are at the heart pf taoism.

 

I was talking about qigong therapy, wei qi liao fa, which, in my system, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with archetypes. You see it in your self-practice system, fine. It is not within my self-practice system either.

 

In fact IMO it has nothing to do with real Taoism, which, if you examine on a deeper level should transcend anything to do with mind or mind constructs. The archetypes which order our perceptions and ideas are by very definition products of the mind and have nothing to do with the higher-level aspect of creation. This gets back to experienced, as in personally experienced connection to the Tao versus scholarly concepts of the Tao, which is not the real Tao. These constructs have REAL POWER only if you mentally allow it to be so.

 

Why wouldn't we wish to rise above the level of these constructs? One could say the same thing about genetics,which on a purely physical level is true, as in genetic pre-disposition. But if we learn we are actually creators and can manipulate the fabric of the universe, we don't have to totally limit ourselves to any pre-disposition simply because we mentally tell ourselves that the genetic pre-disposition is set in stone.

 

So, IMO, if we study and align ourselves with the concept of archetypes we have automatically limited ourselves to these concepts versus total freedom.

 

I do understand that many if not most believe in the archetype. I don't. I do believe in the fact of spiritual lineage and talents which actually transcend the concept of archetype. But I am not in denial; this simply is not within my realm of energetics.

[Ramon25]

Well the simple fact (according to the theory) is that being human is a conustruct of energetic archetype's that shape the ONLY possible way we can percieve the world. They in essence are what make you human. The search for self realization is simply to empower the archetype of the self which is the organzing priciple that joins the other archetype's of the personality. The process is simply aliigning the opposite's archetypes and creating harmony within them. When perfect harmony existing between the predominant archetypes that sorround self then you are a realized being. The way it is described is that archetypes our not a CONSTRUCT of the mind but are primorial PATTERNS that shape our existence. So simply wanting to transcend what you mistakingly believe to be archetyp's is initself the archtype of transendence, the seeker, or spritual priciple embbeded deep within. Maybe you should pickup up a few book's about carl jungs theory's as they will be much more informative than most other sources (which are incomplete) out there.

[Ya Mu]

Well the simple fact (according to the theory)... So simply wanting to transcend what you mistakingly believe ...

 

Theory does not mean IS. So "mistakenly believe" is only a mistake if the theory is correct. I disagree that this theory is correct. You like it and that is OK - But my theory is experientially derived and it is just as valid for me.

I also disagree that this concept is not mentally derived. It comes from thinking. All of the energetics I practice comes direct while bypassing the mental filters.

 

Books on Jung;

Not interested in what I believe to be psychobabble. You like it - read on!

[Ramon25]

Agreed! BUT.....you cannot call something babble or untrue until you fully understand it. HOW on earth can you say that you dont agree with this threory or whatever when you have not even taken the time to disvalidate it? You just ASSUME hence: project, imagine, speculate.... that is not true but what you are possibly disagreeing with is your own prejustice towards something NOT the thing. Anyway I will read on thank you!!

[Ya Mu]

Agreed! BUT.....you cannot call something babble or untrue until you fully understand it. HOW on earth can you say that you dont agree with this threory or whatever when you have not even taken the time to disvalidate it? You just ASSUME hence: project, imagine, speculate.... that is not true but what you are possibly disagreeing with is your own prejustice towards something NOT the thing. Anyway I will read on thank you!!

 

What makes you think it is assumption? Been there done that 35 years ago! You are the one making assumptions about me not taking the time to validate it. I have - to my satisfaction - it is invalid. Now if you would use the same argument and try validating what I said, practice non-mind/burning through filters/direct energetics for 30 years and get back to me. I believe you would have a different perspective.

[Ramon25]

What makes you think it is assumption? Been there done that 35 years ago! You are the one making assumptions about me not taking the time to validate it. I have - to my satisfaction - it is invalid. Now if you would use the same argument and try validating what I said, practice non-mind/burning through filters/direct energetics for 30 years and get back to me. I believe you would have a different perspective.

 

Well for whatever reason you seem to not have understood what it is you were talking about. So therefore I made that deduction. I may have been wrong but that was my impression as you were wrong as to what you think archetypes are, so..... Maybe what you read 35 years ago was wrong? As archetypes obviosly exist to some degree... You can try to bypass them I guess... just like you can try to bypass the physical body in search of spirtual growth. You are right though it does come from thinking BUT just because it comes from thinking does not mean it is a filter Also carl jung did not reach his conclusions by "thinking about it" he Imersed himself in the mind as a recluse for years. people thought he was crazy but what he saids is what he found through expeirence. Also how do you explain the fact that culture's around the world thought of and came up with Dragons, elves, fairies ect.. Or alchemy, shamanism ect... All EXTREMLY similar when these cultures had no way what so ever of having contact. There is SOME validity to what he is saying. But hey no more need to debate

Edited July 1, 2009 by Ramon25

[Ya Mu]

Well for whatever reason you seem to not have understood what it is you were talking about. So therefore I made that deduction. I may have been wrong but that was my impression as you were wrong as to what you think archetypes are, so..... Maybe what you read 35 years ago was wrong? As archetypes obviosly exist to some degree... You can try to bypass them I guess... just like you can try to bypass the physical body in search of spirtual growth. You are right though it does come from thinking BUT just because it comes from thinking does not mean it is a filter Also carl jung did not reach his conclusions by "thinking about it" he Imersed himself in the mind as a recluse for years. people thought he was crazy but what he saids is what he found through expeirence. Also how do you explain the fact that culture's around the world thought of and came up with Dragons, elves, fairies ect.. Or alchemy, shamanism ect... All EXTREMLY similar when these cultures had no way what so ever of having contact. There is SOME validity to what he is saying. But hey no more need to debate

Gimme a break - he started THINKING that way inititally due to a dream he had about the underworld. Real good science, eh?

 

And you keep saying I am wrong. It is an opinion based on as much practical experience as the underworld dreamer, so just as valid.

 

All thinking is looking through filters - none does not.

 

Perhaps because dragons, elves, etc were real?

 

This back and forth started because you said medical qigong utilized the archetype. Medical qigong as I teach totally bypasses the mentally derived archetypes.