Edit

[matt007]

A wanted felon Once again You people Lie & Make up ridiculous stories,all because somebody is being critical of David. You dont even know who Iam in real life & if you did, i can assure, you would change your attitude pretty quickly.

 

You people? Are you referring to the fact that I'm Jewish?

 

You can dish out, but when the tables are turned you become angry and irrational. Sounds like you you have taken things a bit too personally, I was only making a point.

 

Reflect on that Grasshopper.

 

-Matt

[Ken]

How would Ken know whether or not David is in fact a student of Wang's?

 

 

how do i get involved in this again? ha.

 

At the end of the day, it's his words against other people words. People believe what they want. I think everyone deserve the teacher they have, especially Verdesi's students since he fills their desire neatly. I gladly send all those John Chang-wannabes who emailed me to Verdesi's website so perhaps he should pay me a referral fee if any of them sign up to his classes.

 

Mind you I don't have anything against Verdesi personally but I do have to straighten out some blatant misinformations he spreaded out. I have posted these before but here they are for those who are too lazy to look it up.

 

claim 1: Verdesi is an in-door disciple of Master Wang.

 

I think it's quite obvious from his recent letter that he was quite bitter about what he learned (or more likely did not learn) from Master Wang. Nothing more to add...

 

claim 2: Verdesi went to a retreat with Master Wang and John Chang to "die and then come back to life" (as in what was described in Opening the Dragon Gate).

 

This is so hilarious I don't even know what to make of it. I had a chat with Edward Richard, who went on to a retreat with Master Wang, last year and he asked Master Wang personally about this. I believe everyone had a good laugh and the teacher said Verdesi was only a beginner and they only met the year before (interesting Verdesi had claimed before that he had met Master Wang more than 4 years ago ). I will leave to Master Chang's affiliates to clear up whether Master Chang has gone to help Verdesi to die .

 

claim 3 : only by going through Verdesi will you get the "indoor secret" of Longmen Pai.

 

This has been perpetuated by Verdesi and Sean Denty here, well this is categorically false. They were only taught what Master Wang teaches everybody else. In fact Verdesi' group was hardly the first group of foreigners to study with Master Wang, Master Wang taught a special Secret of the Golden Flowers class way to a group of Romanian (some of them Verdesi's ex-students) way before Verdesi brought any of his followers.

 

Now other interesting things about Verdesi is that his cult followers' testimonials. Aren't they fantastic ? But they are all about how awesome Verdesi' teachers are ? But what does it have to do with Verdesi ? From what i know, Verdesi is not teaching Master Wang's stuffs, he is also not teaching Jiang's stuffs (heard from a student of Verdesi, I maybe wrong) so what is he actually teaching ? I think his cult followers were just too wowed by the demonstration and they don't realise that awesome demonstration by Master have nothing to do with Verdesi, I mean there is a confirmation bias there clearly.

 

Next his "level 4" achievement, so he got his level 4 apparently in oct 07 according to his followers. Now in Feb 08, he was in a Master Wang's seminar and people remember him since he and his partner were the only foreigners there and that Verdesi was remembered as a big mouth who claimed to have 30 Masters. So people paid attention to them. In one of the 1.5 hours sitting session with Master Wang's teaching assistant, Verdesi was in half lotus and he had to switch legs twice!! Somehow I doubt John Chang at level 4 will have to switch leg in one of Master Wang's student's qi-field.

 

edit : spellings et al

Edited June 24, 2009 by Ken

[ThunderSon]

I took a seminar with David. I'd be happy to weigh objectively in if there are questions.

[Spirit Ape]

Thunderson,

 

What seminar did you take with David?

 

Ape

[ThunderSon]

Thunderson,

 

What seminar did you take with David?

 

Ape

 

Xing Shen Zhuang, Sheng Zheng Gong 1 & 2, nei gong 1. I have not taken the Miao Tong Dao seminar as this is the first time it will be offered that I have heard of.

 

David is very professional. What was taught was very clear, solid material. The teaching comes from David's nei gong master Da zhen. I only heard about Wang liping after I met David and had already attended his seminars. Some of the things Ken wrote I'm reading for the first time, so I don't know much about it.

[Ken]

Xing Shen Zhuang, Sheng Zheng Gong 1 & 2, nei gong 1. I have not taken the Miao Tong Dao seminar as this is the first time it will be offered that I have heard of.

 

David is very professional. What was taught was very clear, solid material. The teaching comes from David's nei gong master Da zhen. I only heard about Wang liping after I met David and had already attended his seminars. Some of the things Ken wrote I'm reading for the first time, so I don't know much about it.

 

Thanks ThunderSon, well at least we clear up what David Verdesi teaches. Now what does all those demos of Jiang and his teachers (who are from Shaolin Buddhist lineage according to an acquaintance of mine who had met them) have to do with "Da Zhen" (if such person exist)'s teachings? Oh right they are all LSD right ?

 

Also Verdesi was kicked out of China last year according to his letters posted here which meant he was cut off from Jiang and co. And about the same time, he had found his root in "Miao Tong Dao" again and bemoan the uselessness of LSD (both the practice and the drugs probably ) for enlightenment. Am I ebing cynical or is that, oh, all destiny ?? Something to ponder on.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Ken

[ThunderSon]

Vortex,

 

>>>If he's attained level 4, does that mean he has fused his dantian to his huiyin? And does he claim to be enlightened now?<<<

 

David joined his yin and yang. Fusing the huiyin to the dantain, no. It means that he will take his yang chi when he dies and will not reincarnate unless he chooses. David never said he is enlightened. I would say he has a high level of realization.

 

David has down played his achievement many times. He is not like John Chang. Level 3 or 4 is a good level, yes, you are immortal in a way, but it's still basic compared to John Chang. It's not as if you will live forever in a youthful body like Babaji or something. Immortals like that may well exist, but that is a very high, very high and rare.

 

>>>I would also like to know more about Miao Xuan Tong Tao? What are the characters in Chinese? Miao = temple? What does its actual practice consist of?<<<

 

I have not taken this course. It means way of enlightenment or tao of enlightenment.

 

>>>Also more about Sifu Ji and Da Zhen's siddhis? Is any of this documented and does anybody else know about them?<<<

 

Da Zhen is David's first meeting with an immortal. I don't know if these things are documented, but this is a valid teaching. I have had my own experiences with these beings and experiences in the seminars that are more than enough confirmation. Even if it is something that should not be intellectualized. Here is an article from the universal tao website about Da Zhen.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

Hun Dun Wuji Tao-Ba Shen Chi-Organ Nei Kung-8/16/97-David Shen

Hun Dun Wuji Tao is the Name of the Taoist lineagethat David has been recieving from Master Dacheng. This system is third generation teachings from a great Master in northern China. Master Dachengs' Master Dahuei is estimated as being around fifty thousand years old. Master Dasheng has declared that his Master Dahuei is not a human being, but rather a being descended from another plane. He is the last of a race on this earth who are called Sons of Reflected Light or Sons of The Star. This is a race of light beings. Made of light, immortal by earth standards. The rest of his brethren have returned to their own dimension thusly Master Dahuei is singular in his being here on earth. This race brought the nucleus of what has developed as the Tao today. Although the Tao has separated into various factions starting about two thousand years B.C., it's origins were founded in the this nucleus of original information.

 

The system that follows is called Ba Shen Chi. This means the Eight Divine Breaths or Eight Immortal Breaths. This is a very straight forward system to attain control over the three levels of our being, physical, mental, and spiritual. This path is direct and extreme. The first part of the system is based on gaining strong control over the physical body using breathing techniques. Next is control over the mind using symbols. The combination of these two energies awakens the spirit.

 

The first part of this practice is being revealed the same way it was passed down to David by Master Dacheng. Understand that, like the Tao, it is impossible to say whether these practices would have been taught in this order to another man.

 

12/1/97 - DAVID SHEN'S LINAGE :

Hun Tuin Da Ji Shen Tao from Taoist Master Ta Jen and his Taoist Master Tai Wei (20,000 years old) which means the Tao is the Way from Northwestern China known as the Modern Internal Alchemy System around 16th Century. David first met his Master Ta Jen 12/1/86 through visions, then other people, then finally in person. David says these are the missing parts of the Healing Tao for the Immortal Practices and Master Chia says he knows them or remembers them but never taught them before, but will formally in the Winter Retreat 1999.

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________

 

Mantak Chia does not know the teachings and this is just a an outline, but it may give a better sense of what the practice is like and who Da Zhen is. Things have changed some since then, but the idea is the same.

 

>>>And given persistent rumors of some questionable business practices...is he really "still" an indoor disciple of Wang Liping? Or I guess my question is, has anyone actually taken a seminar with this guy and felt it was worth it? As opposed to just studying with the masters themselves or their "approved" teachers at a typically lower cost? Is it evident that David has any real attainments or aura in person?<<<

 

David is very professional. My experience was always positive. It's better to go meet him in person and make your own judgment. Since David first started teaching there has been a controversy, but he has continued to teach that these things are real (immortals and siddhas) and can be experienced by dedicated students.

 

The foundation teaching is Nei gong, as taught by Da Zhen. What I know of David's masters is that it's very hard to get advanced training from them, but they can help with empowerment and energy transfer to the student. Mostly they just give basic practices for health and wellness to the public. Which is very good too, nothing wrong with having good health.

 

>>>Is it evident that David has any real attainments or aura in person?<<<

 

Yes, of course. He has joined his Yin and Yang and his Shen practice is very strong so he can also give empowerment. Just by being in the room with him students can get a lot of help in their practice.

Edited June 24, 2009 by ThunderSon

[Lucky7Strikes]

So no one here knows or has experienced this Miao Tong Dao or know anything of Sifu Ji (I'm not even sure if Ji is a Korean surname, unless he's speaking according to the character base)? I know people are keep talking about John Chang and Wang Liping, but the seminar and the site seem more geared towards highlighting the teachings from Miao Tong Dao...

Edited June 24, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Baguakid]

Edited June 24, 2009 by Baguakid

[h.uriahr]

[Neikung]

Vortex,

 

>>>If he's attained level 4, does that mean he has fused his dantian to his huiyin? And does he claim to be enlightened now?<<<

 

David joined his yin and yang. Fusing the huiyin to the dantain, no. It means that he will take his yang chi when he dies and will not reincarnate unless he chooses. David never said he is enlightened. I would say he has a high level of realization.

 

>>>Is it evident that David has any real attainments or aura in person?<<<

 

Yes, of course. He has joined his Yin and Yang and his Shen practice is very strong so he can also give empowerment. Just by being in the room with him students can get a lot of help in their practice.

 

Thunderson,

What is David's proof that he has achieved level 4? Being able to electrocute another person is not a proof by itself since one can do that through magic tricks (tesla coils hidden in the shoes for example). Have you seen him attracting/pushing a box from a distance similar to what Jim did in the youtube video?

[Neikung]

Thanks ThunderSon, well at least we clear up what David Verdesi teaches. Now what does all those demos of Jiang and his teachers (who are from Shaolin Buddhist lineage according to an acquaintance of mine who had met them) have to do with "Da Zhen" (if such person exist)'s teachings? Oh right they are all LSD right ?

 

Also Verdesi was kicked out of China last year according to his letters posted here which meant he was cut off from Jiang and co. And about the same time, he had found his root in "Miao Tong Dao" again and bemoan the uselessness of LSD (both the practice and the drugs probably ) for enlightenment. Am I ebing cynical or is that, oh, all destiny ?? Something to ponder on.

 

As for Verdesi's previous Sifu Jiang, I recently found another blog that complained about him. Here it is in Chinese:

http://bbs.travel.163.com/bbs/jiangnan/136945213.html

 

and its google English translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...i%26rls%3Den-us

 

From this blog and the previous article in Taiwan's Apple Daily, Jiang certainly looks suspicious. He might have some power (or not?) but one thing is for sure: he loves $ and will do anything to get rich. As others have said, there are many charlatans who use qigong to earn their living.

[gendao]

Vortex,

 

>>>If he's attained level 4, does that mean he has fused his dantian to his huiyin? And does he claim to be enlightened now?<<<

 

David joined his yin and yang. Fusing the huiyin to the dantain, no. It means that he will take his yang chi when he dies and will not reincarnate unless he chooses. David never said he is enlightened. I would say he has a high level of realization.

 

David has down played his achievement many times. He is not like John Chang. Level 3 or 4 is a good level, yes, you are immortal in a way, but it's still basic compared to John Chang. It's not as if you will live forever in a youthful body like Babaji or something. Immortals like that may well exist, but that is a very high, very high and rare.

 

>>>I would also like to know more about Miao Xuan Tong Tao? What are the characters in Chinese? Miao = temple? What does its actual practice consist of?<<<

 

I have not taken this course. It means way of enlightenment or tao of enlightenment.

 

>>>Also more about Sifu Ji and Da Zhen's siddhis? Is any of this documented and does anybody else know about them?<<<

 

Da Zhen is David's first meeting with an immortal. I don't know if these things are documented, but this is a valid teaching. I have had my own experiences with these beings and experiences in the seminars that are more than enough confirmation. Even if it is something that should not be intellectualized. Here is an article from the universal tao website about Da Zhen.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

Hun Dun Wuji Tao-Ba Shen Chi-Organ Nei Kung-8/16/97-David Shen

Hun Dun Wuji Tao is the Name of the Taoist lineagethat David has been recieving from Master Dacheng. This system is third generation teachings from a great Master in northern China. Master Dachengs' Master Dahuei is estimated as being around fifty thousand years old. Master Dasheng has declared that his Master Dahuei is not a human being, but rather a being descended from another plane. He is the last of a race on this earth who are called Sons of Reflected Light or Sons of The Star. This is a race of light beings. Made of light, immortal by earth standards. The rest of his brethren have returned to their own dimension thusly Master Dahuei is singular in his being here on earth. This race brought the nucleus of what has developed as the Tao today. Although the Tao has separated into various factions starting about two thousand years B.C., it's origins were founded in the this nucleus of original information.

 

The system that follows is called Ba Shen Chi. This means the Eight Divine Breaths or Eight Immortal Breaths. This is a very straight forward system to attain control over the three levels of our being, physical, mental, and spiritual. This path is direct and extreme. The first part of the system is based on gaining strong control over the physical body using breathing techniques. Next is control over the mind using symbols. The combination of these two energies awakens the spirit.

 

The first part of this practice is being revealed the same way it was passed down to David by Master Dacheng. Understand that, like the Tao, it is impossible to say whether these practices would have been taught in this order to another man.

 

12/1/97 - DAVID SHEN'S LINAGE :

Hun Tuin Da Ji Shen Tao from Taoist Master Ta Jen and his Taoist Master Tai Wei (20,000 years old) which means the Tao is the Way from Northwestern China known as the Modern Internal Alchemy System around 16th Century. David first met his Master Ta Jen 12/1/86 through visions, then other people, then finally in person. David says these are the missing parts of the Healing Tao for the Immortal Practices and Master Chia says he knows them or remembers them but never taught them before, but will formally in the Winter Retreat 1999.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

 

Mantak Chia does not know the teachings and this is just a an outline, but it may give a better sense of what the practice is like and who Da Zhen is. Things have changed some since then, but the idea is the same.

 

>>>And given persistent rumors of some questionable business practices...is he really "still" an indoor disciple of Wang Liping? Or I guess my question is, has anyone actually taken a seminar with this guy and felt it was worth it? As opposed to just studying with the masters themselves or their "approved" teachers at a typically lower cost? Is it evident that David has any real attainments or aura in person?<<<

 

David is very professional. My experience was always positive. It's better to go meet him in person and make your own judgment. Since David first started teaching there has been a controversy, but he has continued to teach that these things are real (immortals and siddhas) and can be experienced by dedicated students.

 

The foundation teaching is Nei gong, as taught by Da Zhen. What I know of David's masters is that it's very hard to get advanced training from them, but they can help with empowerment and energy transfer to the student. Mostly they just give basic practices for health and wellness to the public. Which is very good too, nothing wrong with having good health.

 

>>>Is it evident that David has any real attainments or aura in person?<<<

 

Yes, of course. He has joined his Yin and Yang and his Shen practice is very strong so he can also give empowerment. Just by being in the room with him students can get a lot of help in their practice.

Thanks for the honest and lengthy reply!

 

Does, Da Zhen = Dacheng, though? And according to Ken, WLP is not an immortal.

 

But according to David, Da Zhen is? By what measure and evidence?

 

I've also never heard of:

Hun Dun Wuji Tao, Ba Shen Chi Organ Nei Kung or Hun Tuin Da Ji Shen Tao from Taoist Master Ta Jen and his Taoist Master Tai Wei

 

Not that I know of much... But just curious if anyone else has?

[Ken]

Thanks for the honest and lengthy reply!

 

Does, Da Zhen = Dacheng, though? And according to Ken, WLP is not an immortal.

 

But according to David, Da Zhen is? By what measure and evidence?

 

 

 

WTF?

 

I believe what i said was that Master Wang had never claimed to be an immortal (not that i know of). I have also never met any immortals, as descibed in Chinese legends, or at least they didn't tell me. So I am not so presumptuous as to say who is or isn't an immortal. well perhaps you know..

 

The kool aids kids of verdesi's group has such a low bar for defining what an immortal is, they probably think anything that can fart fire as an immortal.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Ken

[VCraigP]

I took a seminar with David. I'd be happy to weigh objectively in if there are questions.

 

 

Hi

 

You have done a good job of outlining the material taught by David.

 

What is your Experience as a student of this material?

 

What has been the results for you? What do you expect to achieve by further practice and study with Mr Verdesi?

 

Sincerely

 

Craig

[Siliconvalley1]

But according to David, Da Zhen is? By what measure and evidence?

 

This always confuses me. Are there really quantitative methods of comparing the levels of person A and person B? In the same exact school, it may be attempted but is that feasible across two systems? I asked the same query in Buddhist Realization vs. Everything else and did not find a sensible answer except "because Buddha said so" and "what he said makes sense to ME". Such opinions seem to hold value only within the frameworks that give rise to them. Can should we be interpolating them to get a generic comparison across systems? John Chang vs Wang Liping fits this example better than Mr. Verdesi I guess ..

Edited June 24, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[gendao]

WTF?

 

I believe what i said was that Master Wang had never claimed to be an immortal (not that i know of). I have also never met any immortals, as descibed in Chinese legends, or at least they didn't tell me. So I am not so presumptuous as to say who is or isn't an immortal. well perhaps you know..

 

The kool aids kids of verdesi's group has such a low bar for defining what an immortal is, they probably think anything that can fart fire as an immortal.

Oh sorry, thanks for the clarification.

 

Or I guess, ultimately, clarification that this whole subject (of "immortality") is very unclarified.

 

I guess I shoulda just asked Master Wang himself at the webcast, damn!

[HouTian]

Its only these inexperienced youngsters who follow David. Maybe they are missing something in there life im not sure. They will never become the Superman like they imagine. And unfortunatly its The only thing that attracted these poor people to Jiang in the 1st place

 

If i had a dollar for every master that could externalize chi i would be a millionaire. If you want to be strong go join a boxing gym & lift weights. Clearly you dont have the mental willpower & strength to endure an Authentic Taoist Training Regime. I think many of Davids fairy like students would be better suited to Something like reiki or a weekend taichi course.

 

Please guys, just forget about attaining any powers from david its just a waste of money.

 

Anyway im off to fiji for 3 weeks holiday,

 

Peace.

 

WTF?

 

I believe what i said was that Master Wang had never claimed to be an immortal (not that i know of). I have also never met any immortals, as descibed in Chinese legends, or at least they didn't tell me. So I am not so presumptuous as to say who is or isn't an immortal. well perhaps you know..

 

The kool aids kids of verdesi's group has such a low bar for defining what an immortal is, they probably think anything that can fart fire as an immortal.

 

 

Ha Ha Ha Ken

[minkus]

Anyway im off to fiji for 3 weeks holiday,

 

I wonna go to Fiji to :/

[sheng zhen]

Its only these inexperienced youngsters who follow David.

This is not my experience with his students at all. I see the complete opposite.

 

But of cource if you base your conclusions on what you see on internettforums I would understand why you see it that way.

[ThunderSon]

Hi

 

You have done a good job of outlining the material taught by David.

 

What is your Experience as a student of this material?

 

What has been the results for you? What do you expect to achieve by further practice and study with Mr Verdesi?

 

Sincerely

 

Craig

Craig,

 

I will write something this weekend when I have free some free time. I can try to just give some objective answers to other questions too.

[Enishi]

Unless someone is able to materialize in front of you with a physical body after dying, or can show you evidence that they've lived much longer than the ordinary human lifespan, it does seem that the very term immortal would be sorta suspect.

[ThunderSon]

Hi

 

You have done a good job of outlining the material taught by David.

 

What is your Experience as a student of this material?

 

What has been the results for you? What do you expect to achieve by further practice and study with Mr Verdesi?

 

Sincerely

 

Craig

My experience is that I am able to go deeply into meditation and my health and energy has changed very much for the better. Before I begin practicing, I was often depressed, but my depression was gone within two months and never returned. Those are few of the simple benefits. Not unlike any good practice or martial arts. The teaching we got from David is very detailed and clear so I found it very easy to have confidence in what I'm doing. David also uses his energy to push the group into certain states so they have an experience to guide them when they are not with David. So that is a very unique and helpful part of his teaching.

 

My immediate goal is to have more peace and joy in life and to go deeper into the practice. There are some article on the website for David that go into more depth about the short term goals and what one would experience when undertaking such practice. www.zhengzongdadao.com Look for the article on Sheng Zheng Gong.

 

The long term goal for me is not something I worry about. I just try to stay committed to the practice and take it one day at a time. The goal is enlightenment.

 

It appears these topics have been discussed many times, so I would only add that my experience has been positive and not at all what some have written. I hope we are all successful in our practice whatever that is and can be more united and mature so we can cultivate peace and enlightenment together as one Tao. We should work together to support and serve society, that is the point of Taoism.

[ramus]

So, to summarize, my point of view on the practices that David Shen says of practice and even teach:

 

The street lighting has nothing to do with the school of thunder and lightning, is highly detrimental to the body of the practitioner,

 

is extremely dangerous for its practitioners and those close to the practitioner,

 

power generated is completely dissociated from the knowledge and character of the person, then an evil person could reach the heights of this practice,

 

practice is therefore to serve a hypertrophic ego that believes that it is so important to have to live forever

 

generates power and increases selfishness and egocentrism, gives the possibility not to look to their personal growth that is replaced by growth of ego

 

In practice, it repeats the myth of the Tower of Babel, the practitioner tries to rise from the bottom up with its own strengths and build a being that is beyond the laws of nature, we try to construct a devil can be so compact enough to be harder than the scythe of death, the guardian of the threshold,

 

this practice is not therefore considered the importance of the spirit that is the true ruler and tries to replace it by the ego and the proposed evolution of the spirit replaces a personal and necessarily short-sighted

 

Besides all this, when David (and for me would be the best, since the character) was not reached actual powers of energy, then it could use some trivial tricks to generate the electricity that I also have heard,

 

However the fact that David now has moved in the tradition of MIAO is probably a marketing move, just to have a greater chance of having students and to broaden his target presone poor but present in more than

 

the fact that he can talk about lighting and want to give an initiation of this is, in my opinion, ludicrous, in fact only an enlightened would do something like this and he is not.

Edited December 14, 2009 by ramus