Healthy Americans Against Reforming Medicine

[Encephalon]

I realize this not about Taoism per se, but it is obliquely related to the health care fiasco in the USA.

 

http://haarm.org/

 

please forward this to every creature you can think of.

[joeblast]

did they get the SNL comics to write that lame attempt at comedy?

[Desert Eagle]

related: http://www.reformfda.org/

[Encephalon]

did they get the SNL comics to write that lame attempt at comedy?

 

They weren't attempting comedy - the content speaks for itself

 

They weren't attempting comedy - the content speaks for itself

 

 

My fault however, since I did record it as "hysterical" which it is not, now that I think of it.

 

related: http://www.reformfda.org/

 

I could easily go postal over the FDA mess as well. We are so phukked in so many ways.

[joeblast]

They weren't attempting comedy - the content speaks for itself

My fault however, since I did record it as "hysterical" which it is not, now that I think of it.

the content does speak for itself. contrived, poorly written, and entirely misguided.

[gendao]

did they get the SNL comics to write that lame attempt at comedy?

I'd be interested to know what agencies funded that spot?

 

Problem with Socialism is that the health-conscious folks who live responsibly end up paying for those who don't, since the cost gets more or less evenly spread out.

 

So, of course the unhealthy risk-takers all want Socialist health care - cuz they get a free ride off it. If I was a chain-smoker who ate fast food everyday, I'd want someone else to pay for my lifestyle risks, as well.

 

I believe the only health care reform that gets supported by a majority of Americans is single-payer coverage. Where costs get determined in more proportion to risks and services.

It differs from typical private health insurance where, through pricing and other measures taken by the insurer, the level of risks carried by multiple insurance pools as well as the coverage can vary and the pricing has to be varied according to the contribution of risk added to the pool.

[joeblast]

 

funny enough, the only health care expenses that are seeing any real price drops are things like cosmetic surgery, which arent covered by insurance and thus far more subject to market forces. doing something like creating a gov plan that changes the rules of the game and gives itself all sort of built-in advantages is asinine. making fun of downstream effects that you are either too ignorant, naive or closed minded to see is just...shortsighted in the extreme, but then again what has come down the pipe since january hasnt been?

 

 

I knew the fools that wrote the page had their heads up their asses when I saw Glenn Beck on their trash list

[Owledge]

Hm, in Germany we have a system where some people are more paying and some more getting. But nobody talks about Socialism. They call it solidary. It's a lot more complicated in detail, but I don't see why the USA can't adapt systems from other countries.

(But of course, this is all just made-up problems.)

 

 

My fault however, since I did record it as "hysterical" which it is not, now that I think of it.

Actually the true sense of "hysterical" is not the same as of "hysterical laughter".

[Encephalon]

Hm, in Germany we have a system where some people are more paying and some more getting. But nobody talks about Socialism. They call it solidary. It's a lot more complicated in detail, but I don't see why the USA can't adapt systems from other countries.

(But of course, this is all just made-up problems.)

Actually the true sense of "hysterical" is not the same as of "hysterical laughter".

 

The USA is a business-run society, has been since the end of the civil war. We can expect societal norms that prevail in European social democracies to fall well outside American parameters. Our use of the term 'socialism' is almost entirely perjorative, and in fact, the average American knows very little about the political spectrum and where specific ideas are plotted. If you listen to Fox News on a regular basis, you would come to believe that fascism and socialism are the same thing. A lower-division political science class at any junior college could fix that, but of course, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh couldn't handle college. "A little learning is a dangerous thing."

[agharta]

 

funny enough, the only health care expenses that are seeing any real price drops are things like cosmetic surgery, which arent covered by insurance and thus far more subject to market forces. doing something like creating a gov plan that changes the rules of the game and gives itself all sort of built-in advantages is asinine.

 

What about the concept of conditions getting much worse and harder (and more expensive) to treat because people wait to go to the doctor, because they don't have the money? What do you do when they are having heart attacks, strokes, etc.? Just leave them in the gutter to die? The medical profession does have ethics. Darn those ethics. Darn them!! They are the cause of all bad things!!

 

Why are you such an extremist?

[Owledge]

The medical profession does have ethics.

More or less.

[joeblast]

The USA is a business-run society, has been since the end of the civil war. We can expect societal norms that prevail in European social democracies to fall well outside American parameters. Our use of the term 'socialism' is almost entirely perjorative, and in fact, the average American knows very little about the political spectrum and where specific ideas are plotted. If you listen to Fox News on a regular basis, you would come to believe that fascism and socialism are the same thing. A lower-division political science class at any junior college could fix that, but of course, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh couldn't handle college. "A little learning is a dangerous thing."

I love it when people say ignorant stuff. this country was built on individual freedoms, not an some collectivist utopian paradise ideal where everyone's ass gets wiped for them. I speak of socialist ideals pejoratively, just as I do fascist ideals. countries that want to subscribe to shit like that can do so; that is not what america was built for and we dont need to go any further down the road thataway than we've already been brought. america has been individual and business run from the getgo, where did the civil war enter into this?

with regard to the news, what's more important - what the message is, or who the messenger is? from your words it seems as though the messenger is pretty darn important, hell with any objectivity...if one speaks truth, does it matter where the words came from?

we need a tailor made system that will fit america. trying worn ideas that have mostly failed in europe is just plain dumb, especially if you're trying to scale them up in such a size that its going to make the weight of it all unbearable once the full presence of the costs is felt. a lil something called e-c-o-n-o-m-i-c r-e-a-l-i-t-y. for all the bitchin people did about bush spending too much, the vast majority are amazingly silent these days. more caring about the messenger as opposed to the message. I'm just sick of politicians that will say whatever they think the audience in front of them wants to hear. as bumbling as bushII was, at least he stuck to his convictions. and when bush1 had to reverse course and tax after he said read my lips, no new taxes....at least he had the guts to say yes, its a tax...and not try to keep renaming things to the point that nobody really knows. 95% my ass....95% of us are getting tax hikes from this crap, not the other way around.

 

 

agarta...extremist? how about a dose of reality? you're going to f*k 80% of everyone with the intention of "helping" ~40 million, while its still going to leave 18-30 million sans insurance anyway, saddling the rest of us with a stamp-pressed system with built in benefits for itself that will raise prices for the private side until they can no longer stay above water? (and then try to gloss over the depth of the red by hiking a massive energy tax to help pay for it all?) thankfully it looks like there is a decent enough amount of people and organizations that are clear headed on this matter. look at the shitty job the gov does with medicare...and you want them to take on the whole kit n kaboodle?? insanity. have some compassion for the vast majority of everyone that is perfectly happy with the current config if you're going to be speaking of compassion. you're not going to get one setup that's going to cover everyone and make everyone happy, so you are better off covering 80% well rather than screwing them up big time to maybe cover 10 of that other 20%. these numbers are just stupid...if Obama wasnt the anti-Bush...well, I guess we wouldnt be getting such a prescient glimpse of the direction most of us DONT want this country going in - e.g. media assists complete amateur to the presidency, now he's making a thousand amateurish decisions and attempting to move the country in a direction that would make the founding fathers want to puke.

 

you guys have no clue of the effects of the legislation of which you speak. (if you do and still support it, then I apologize for your gullibility in accepting the #s you're believing...or, that's just your political bent, which although I completely disagree with, I can half-respect with a funny look on my face.)

 

I'm out for the weekend Look objectively at these things, fellas - a politician telling you to "hurry up rush we need to get this done now or its never going to get done and here's really the only way it can happen" most certainly has his fingers crossed behind his back.

[Owledge]

@Joe

You're right that the original idea was nothing like the 'big ideas' now, but don't get upset about problems that are artificially created. In the end ... shouldn't matter what people want? That's a real problem. The people aren't properly represented. So as long as this is the case, everything else is not worth arguing about, because by arguing pro/contra, you make yourself an advocate for a grievance that should never have existed in the first place.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Hardyg

[joeblast]

dont get upset about problems that are artificially created? as opposed to ones that are naturally created, like climate variability? (=non problem)

 

new for ya bro, the artificially created ones are the only ones we can do anything about. hilary care II, aka obamacare, needs to go the way of hilarycare I, which was in the dumpster where it belonged. I'm not against everyone being covered that wants to be in some fashion or another, but there is a very fine line of what will do well vs what will wreak havoc.

 

the people arent properly represented, yes, but that is partially the people's fault - always voting for 'the lesser of two evils,' or 'that same guy that's been there forever' - but with such a paucity of choices, lots of times that's just about all you're left with.

 

with respect to arguing about the matter - I'm not about to get out somewhere with a sign, but I'll speak up when there's naught but bullshit at the trough and its being mostly ingested without complaint. I dont raise grievances, but at times I'll respond.

[Owledge]

the people arent properly represented, yes, but that is partially the people's fault - always voting for 'the lesser of two evils,' or 'that same guy that's been there forever' - but with such a paucity of choices, lots of times that's just about all you're left with.

Yeah, people should become aware of what they're doing. Here in Germany people so often say - Why vote? There's no party left that I can vote for with good conscience. They all showed that they only long for power.

Well, this by itself reveals their own longing for power, for when I inquire about that, I find out that they just ignore the many smaller parties on the ballot because they won't have any power anyway. So they want to be on the winner's side and thus take part in the power games. Besides ... every vote gets the party some money here, so it helps for future activities.

Following this principle-based thought pattern ... You won't guess what I'm voting for ... Pirates! Apparently this small party already causes fear in the establishment, because of all the slander they ARRRR subjected to.

[Encephalon]

"you guys have no clue of the effects of the legislation of which you speak. (if you do and still support it, then I apologize for your gullibility in accepting the #s you're believing...or, that's just your political bent, which although I completely disagree with, I can half-respect with a funny look on my face.)

 

I'm out for the weekend Look objectively at these things, fellas - a politician telling you to "hurry up rush we need to get this done now or its never going to get done and here's really the only way it can happen" most certainly has his fingers crossed behind his back."

 

 

From this sentiment I am assuming that you hold your political opponents in very low regard. John Galbraith and Bill Buckley were the best of friends for decades, sharing a mutual love of many interests, even though they were on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I suspect this will become less likely in this highly polarized climate. Personal attacks don't often contribute to informed discussion. I've been a political junkie for almost forty years and performed fairly well in grad school; I am aware of the roots of my ideas. The life of the mind is an exciting one, particularly when hidden connections are revealed between ideas that on the surface appear incongruent. But this process can only happen in a benevolent and cooperative spirit.

 

I would encourage everyone to consider the possibility that there are thinking people who represent a variety of intellectual persuasions. To insist that some points are beyond debate is to cut off creative thought. I don't consider myself an egalitarian, but I recognize the risks of letting insurance companies run a nation's health-care policy. Their creative contribution to society is, in my opinion, vastly lower than their compensation. But I recognize that this is a debatable point, and not worthy of impugning the intellect of people I have never met.

 

I've learned an important lesson in public blogging; don't assume that personalities who are attracted to Asian thought are necessarily progressive. I obviously enjoy Taoism, as well as Buddhism, for the way it resonates with the tenets in my own mental universe. But I cannot lay claim to an exhaustive knowledge of Asian thought.

 

Perhaps that could be a subject for discussion - "Does Taoism presuppose a political viewpoint?"

Edited June 25, 2009 by Blasto

[Owledge]

@Blasto

Taoism ... Buddhism ... religions. Of course they're not that much a warrant for quality, I mean, they are in parts seriously flawed ... or why do buddhists honor and value ALL life equal and would never end a life and are thus vegetarian, but ah... plants ... well plants aren't really life, you know. That's a special thing. We have to kill plants to eat.

 

Is there a more precise explanation of this problem in buddhism? What is it really about? The ego? The spirit/soul? Do plants have a soul? Why do they treat all life as equal?