Western Magick and Emptiness

[Sloppy Zhang]

Now, I don't claim to be very advanced in any of the system that I practice, in fact, I'm a beginner in both, but what I study are the methods of Franz Bardon's Hermetics (from the Initiation into Hermetics book), and of B.K. Frantzis (I'm working through Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body as well as Relaxing into Your Being).

 

On the whole, both of these systems (to me), seem very compatible, and the more I read of each system the more I find that they share many "big" ideas, such as the development of a human in an even fashion (for example, don't neglect the body because you are trying to develop the mind).

 

But, the little details seem a bit different. Now, maybe they aren't so different, and as I get deeper into the systems I'll find more, but these are my thoughts as of now, and I'll just be using a couple easy to see examples.

 

In Bardon's system (and from what I've studied of other western magick/occultist systems) there's a lot of visualization... well, not visualization per se, but it seems there's an emphasis on building up "stuff". Here's what I mean: there's some exercises in which you develop the mental senses. So, in your mind you visualize an apple. Most people in most systems do that and just stop. But Bardon teaches to also develop tasting the apple, feeling the apple, smelling the apple, and hearing the apple (well the last one is kind of hard to do ) but the point is, rather than just visualizing you engage in ALL of your senses (senses within the mind) and develop them evenly.

 

But in Frantzis' system it's all about dissolving and getting RID of that stuff. In fact, there's a youtube video in which Frantzis talks about dissolving mental images within the mind, and that those images actually cause tension in the mind and potentially in other parts of the body, which of course can cause blockages and some other problems.

 

I've also studied a little bit of zen, which is also about getting rid of those images and stuff from the mind, getting rid of all the things that aren't really there. But in Bardon's system (and again, from other things I've studied/read about), the case seems to be the opposite: you seek to gather and accumulate those images and other things.

 

Now, again, the major points seem to be the same, and the more I read and study the more "big issue" similarities I find. But this issue seems to be a split. Now there seem to be some very high level, or at least very experienced, members from both systems on this board, and from western and eastern traditions in general, so I'd love to get some insights from all of you. Thanks

Edited July 1, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[thelerner]

Stillness is the mother of movement. Many great martial artists said the to there great ability (&speed) was training in stillness or near stillness.

 

I see emptiness as the mother technique, yet it is secondary to appreciating Everything. Visualizing isn't the goal, its the training wheels to see/know what is happening behind the curtain.

 

Canvas and painting..which is more important?

 

 

Michael

[magus]

aaaaaaaaa the Golden Dawn right?

 

Edited July 3, 2009 by magus

[Sloppy Zhang]

aaaaaaaaa the Golden Dawn right?

 

I was thinking more like Franz Bardon but I guess them too

 

Stillness is the mother of movement. Many great martial artists said the to there great ability (&speed) was training in stillness or near stillness.

 

I see emptiness as the mother technique, yet it is secondary to appreciating Everything. Visualizing isn't the goal, its the training wheels to see/know what is happening behind the curtain.

 

Canvas and painting..which is more important?

 

 

Michael

 

Hmm, that's deep. Gonna have to think about that. Thanks

[magus]

ok

Edited July 3, 2009 by magus

[Ramon25]

I think they are perfectly complimentary if you are the type of person who can intergrate the two. But what bardon is doing is teaching you how to cultivate the POWER of the mind and bruce is trying to calm the mind. Alot of power can come from a calm mind. But i dont know what the magiks long term goal is????

[Birch]

I like this stuff for some reasons. Would have to think to find out why.

 

Anyway. What if they are complimentary approaches as steps?

 

Step one: claim the mind and realize its nature

Step two: reclaim the mind and realize through its nature

 

Just an idea.

[Tokoyo Tama]

Magick often doesn't go very far in the letting go of ego sense. Magick is very 'will' based, Taoist as well as many other systems aim to transcend the ego (or however it is phrased within their system). I would term this as a shortcoming in the relatively young system of modern magick, but with the proper motivation and understanding on the part of the practitioner this is a non-issue. Not sure this is the most appropriate place to post this analogy, but too late. So, it's great to spread seeds all around, but isn't it silly to throw seeds on barren land? First work the land, then plant the seed, water, etc etc. So all these people who are trying to do what they have intellectually rationalized as the 'best' path might be selling themselves short by not enabling a truly sustainable or fully transformative practice. Surely could be more elegantly phrased, but the gist should be pretty clear from that.

 

ps:after using a 'k' with magic 3 times, I'm pretty sure I can't personally handle that spelling... Random moments of personal insight.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think they are perfectly complimentary if you are the type of person who can intergrate the two. But what bardon is doing is teaching you how to cultivate the POWER of the mind and bruce is trying to calm the mind. Alot of power can come from a calm mind. But i dont know what the magiks long term goal is????

 

Interesting insights Ramon25. As for the overall goal of magick, well, the goal of "high magick" anyway is to realize God, unite with God, be one with the big plan and move in such a way that you help God's plan/framework/whatever come about.... so it sounds very familiar with uniting with the Tao and all that.

 

I like this stuff for some reasons. Would have to think to find out why.

 

Anyway. What if they are complimentary approaches as steps?

 

Step one: claim the mind and realize its nature

Step two: reclaim the mind and realize through its nature

 

Just an idea.

 

Hm, that's definately something to think about, thanks very much Kate

 

Magick often doesn't go very far in the letting go of ego sense. Magick is very 'will' based, Taoist as well as many other systems aim to transcend the ego (or however it is phrased within their system). I would term this as a shortcoming in the relatively young system of modern magick, but with the proper motivation and understanding on the part of the practitioner this is a non-issue. Not sure this is the most appropriate place to post this analogy, but too late. So, it's great to spread seeds all around, but isn't it silly to throw seeds on barren land? First work the land, then plant the seed, water, etc etc. So all these people who are trying to do what they have intellectually rationalized as the 'best' path might be selling themselves short by not enabling a truly sustainable or fully transformative practice. Surely could be more elegantly phrased, but the gist should be pretty clear from that.

 

ps:after using a 'k' with magic 3 times, I'm pretty sure I can't personally handle that spelling... Random moments of personal insight.

 

I understand the analogy, thanks

 

Also, I think it was Aleister Crowley who started the whole "magic" with a "k" thing. Though I don't really agree with all that Crowley said or did, I think the spelling is handy. Basically it separates stage magic (just a c) with "real" magick (with a k) that is actually about spiritual development and all that.

 

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone in this thread so far, you've all given me a lot to think about

Edited July 2, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Tokoyo Tama]

Interesting insights Ramon25. As for the overall goal of magick, well, the goal of "high magick" anyway is to realize God, unite with God, be one with the big plan and move in such a way that you help God's plan/framework/whatever come about.... so it sounds very familiar with uniting with the Tao and all that.

 

I thought the main distinction that 'high' imparts upon magic (just feels right to me ) is ritual. So it is my impression that the practitioner chooses the goal, and that 'realizing' God would only be the goal of those who chose for it to be, not of all 'high magick' practitioners. One book, tome really, that has been of great interest to me is "Mysticism" by Evelyn Underhill, a victorian who had the perspective of Theosophy, the Golden Dawn and eventually went the vanilla Christian route. She discusses some of the distinction between mysticism and magic (maybe magic is the wrong word here). Very dry reading, but some of the best insight density I've seen around related to western spiritual practices. Probably a free download from somewhere. I mention it because it phrased very eloquently the merging with _____ through mysticism, and contrasts that with the willful means of ritual magic. In fortune cookie form -> "Balance is of utmost importance"

 

Sidenote: Never have and probably never will read the writings of Crowley directly, but I get the impression that he has a veery developed third eye (upper dan tien? dunno if they're synonymous) but doesn't have any 7th chakra opening or activity. Do you know if he did much to open the 7th chakra/merge with God/Kether (not 'gods', I know he was down with that) or something similar?

[Creation]

The usual disclaimer: It is very likely that I have no idea what I am talking about. With that said:

 

In Water tradition stuff, you learn to let go of all the crap you are holding. But you must also learn to act without accumulating more crap, or you will be taking x steps forward and y steps back, and y might be greater than x. Can you be acting in a way that does not produce tension 24/7, i.e. even when you are not consciously "meditating" or actively going inward and letting go of the stuff that is already there? This seems like an important thing to me.

 

For example, internal martial artists learn to move and strike in completely relaxed way. Perhaps one can learn to do this with visualization as well?

 

From this perspective, the two systems do not seem incompatible. The Bardon stuff you described is developing a skill. People have to develop skills all the time. And it usually creates mental tension to do so. I imagine that learning to read creates a huge amount of tension. Studying for tests creates mental tension. When one learns an unfamiliar martial art form or dance move, it is usually very tense at first. Learning to do these things without tension would be so very valuable.

 

Having mental content is not the same as being attached to your mental content. Having an image in your mind does not mean you must be bound or defined by that image. Doing something does not mean that that something causes tension. But so often it does! It certainly does for me. But I fancy that through proper training one can separate these things, having the one without the other.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Very good post creation. I enjoyed it.

 

That is where some of the stuff like eastern magic especially the stuff like chinese elemental magic... being able to feel the patterns of substances differ from the mind dispositions of the majority of magic itself.

 

I used to converse regularly some years ago with Tomekeeper who wrote "The Library of Magic" webpage where he was trying to streamline most of the stuff into a more freestyle type of direct magic which was more intent on feeling the energies you were working with as a type of feedback response to what you were working with. Plus he also alludes to not using the mind, though a lot of people fell into that trap. That is probably the closest I have seen anyone comming to integrating higher energies into magic.

 

This seems more in line with getting away from the mind trap of some of the ritualistic thinking, though as a matter of course mankind does need some minor rituals as a type of "cue up" for doing that type of work.

Kind of like the opening to stillness movement, which is kind of like a "cue up" for the meditation.

Edited July 3, 2009 by TheWhiteRabbit

[Sloppy Zhang]

I feel kind of awkward resurrecting my own thread, but I was thinking about the subject again today I'd appreciate any insights that any others might have

 

But I was re-reading through the replies, and there's a lot of good stuff, so thanks again to everyone who responded

 

The usual disclaimer: It is very likely that I have no idea what I am talking about. With that said:

 

In Water tradition stuff, you learn to let go of all the crap you are holding. But you must also learn to act without accumulating more crap, or you will be taking x steps forward and y steps back, and y might be greater than x. Can you be acting in a way that does not produce tension 24/7, i.e. even when you are not consciously "meditating" or actively going inward and letting go of the stuff that is already there? This seems like an important thing to me.

 

For example, internal martial artists learn to move and strike in completely relaxed way. Perhaps one can learn to do this with visualization as well?

 

From this perspective, the two systems do not seem incompatible. The Bardon stuff you described is developing a skill. People have to develop skills all the time. And it usually creates mental tension to do so. I imagine that learning to read creates a huge amount of tension. Studying for tests creates mental tension. When one learns an unfamiliar martial art form or dance move, it is usually very tense at first. Learning to do these things without tension would be so very valuable.

 

Having mental content is not the same as being attached to your mental content. Having an image in your mind does not mean you must be bound or defined by that image. Doing something does not mean that that something causes tension. But so often it does! It certainly does for me. But I fancy that through proper training one can separate these things, having the one without the other.

 

Creation, thanks for this post, a lot to think about, and a lot of I'm still thinking about.

 

I was thinking about this today, about tension, what stuff makes tension. I thought, you know, I should just focus on stillness, on emptiness. But then I looked around, the wind was blowing, the trees were swaying, animals and stuff were running around, and I realized stuff was moving then I thought, I'd have to just sit here forever if I really wanted to be still and relaxed and not have tension.... but I gotta walk around

 

Then I thought, like you mentioned Creation, about moving and thinking and doing stuff in a way that doesn't produce tension.....

 

But then I was like, stillness vs. movement, relaxation vs. tension, ah, more dualities and stuff

 

Anyway, I guess that's an "update" of my thoughts. Feel free anybody else who wants to chime in

[Marblehead]

 

But then I was like, stillness vs. movement, relaxation vs. tension, ah, more dualities and stuff

 

Anyway, I guess that's an "update" of my thoughts. Feel free anybody else who wants to chime in

 

Why are you presenting this against that? Yes, that is duality. What happened with wu wei? Or better still, wei wu wei. There is this - that is all. The rose is not against the thorn. They both just are. Pee when you gotta' pee. That's all. When you are tired, rest. That's all.

 

Happy Trails!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Why are you presenting this against that? Yes, that is duality. What happened with wu wei? Or better still, wei wu wei. There is this - that is all. The rose is not against the thorn. They both just are. Pee when you gotta' pee. That's all. When you are tired, rest. That's all.

 

Happy Trails!

 

Err, yeah, guess I was kinda vague on that I realized that's what I was doing, and I had to get back to the whole unity idea so pretty much what you just said, but you said it better than I did (well I didn't really say it, and that's why it was vague I suppose). I really like the rose/thorn image you used

 

Anyway, thank you for getting me to clarify.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Marblehead]

I really like the rose/thorn image you used

 

Thanks. I made that up especially for you.

 

Anyway, thank you for getting me to clarify.

 

Any time, my friend.

 

Happy Trails!

[Taoist81]

Seeing that Crowley has been brought up a few times in this thread, it is worth noting what he thought of the "two" systems "mysticism" and "magick". Crowley wrote that basically they were two different routes with the same ultimate goal, one going outward and the other inward. In the A.'.A.'. one is required to master (and is tested on) both to progress through the grades, first building up (things like the Body of Light and certain magickal abilities) then destroying. The two major milestones in the "career" of a member of the A.'.A.'. are the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel (i.e. Union with the "Higher Self") and the crossing of the Abyss. Both require something of a silencing of the "ego", but the latter involves the complete dissolution of it. Failing to completely let go of it (something which one prepares for years, or, more often, decades to do) results in being lost to the Abyss and being forcefully "torn apart" therein.

 

Both Magick and Mysticism have the end result of One, then None. They only appear different in the lower practices.

[Creation]

I feel kind of awkward resurrecting my own thread, but I was thinking about the subject again today I'd appreciate any insights that any others might have

 

But I was re-reading through the replies, and there's a lot of good stuff, so thanks again to everyone who responded

Creation, thanks for this post, a lot to think about, and a lot of I'm still thinking about.

 

I was thinking about this today, about tension, what stuff makes tension. I thought, you know, I should just focus on stillness, on emptiness. But then I looked around, the wind was blowing, the trees were swaying, animals and stuff were running around, and I realized stuff was moving then I thought, I'd have to just sit here forever if I really wanted to be still and relaxed and not have tension.... but I gotta walk around

 

Then I thought, like you mentioned Creation, about moving and thinking and doing stuff in a way that doesn't produce tension.....

 

But then I was like, stillness vs. movement, relaxation vs. tension, ah, more dualities and stuff

 

Anyway, I guess that's an "update" of my thoughts. Feel free anybody else who wants to chime in

Hi Zhang.

 

I hope you are well.

 

Stillness, change, emptiness, tension...

 

I don't think stillness and emptiness are synonymous. Emptiness is about lack of OBSTRUCTION, not lack of movement. It's just that it's easier to be empty when you are still.

 

Taoists are all about change. The foundation of Taoism is the Yijing, Book of CHANGES. I presume you are have watched many of BKFs videos on Ba Gua on his youtube channel and have seen him circle walking?

 

The method he teaches uses circle walking with its rapid movements and changes to help access the obstructions that are harder to sense by just sitting.

 

In a sense, tension is necessary for movement. But that term is so ambiguous. Let's say "force" is needed to initiate movement (basic physics). Whereas what you call tension, let's call "obstruction". Proper movement is the result of a net force that is a result of many opposing forces (which is called stress or some such word with a negative connotation in physics, hence ambiguity) like gravity, elasticity of fascia and muscular tension. But this balance of forces can become obstructed, leading to poorly executed movement.

 

Somehow, these principles go all the way up the ladder, so to speak, into energy, emotions, thoughts, etc.

 

I don't know if I said anything new or helpful, or just repeated myself with different words...

 

I really wish I could walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Creation

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hi Zhang.

 

I hope you are well.

 

Stillness, change, emptiness, tension...

 

I don't think stillness and emptiness are synonymous. Emptiness is about lack of OBSTRUCTION, not lack of movement. It's just that it's easier to be empty when you are still.

 

Taoists are all about change. The foundation of Taoism is the Yijing, Book of CHANGES. I presume you are have watched many of BKFs videos on Ba Gua on his youtube channel and have seen him circle walking?

 

The method he teaches uses circle walking with its rapid movements and changes to help access the obstructions that are harder to sense by just sitting.

 

In a sense, tension is necessary for movement. But that term is so ambiguous. Let's say "force" is needed to initiate movement (basic physics). Whereas what you call tension, let's call "obstruction". Proper movement is the result of a net force that is a result of many opposing forces (which is called stress or some such word with a negative connotation in physics, hence ambiguity) like gravity, elasticity of fascia and muscular tension. But this balance of forces can become obstructed, leading to poorly executed movement.

 

Somehow, these principles go all the way up the ladder, so to speak, into energy, emotions, thoughts, etc.

 

I don't know if I said anything new or helpful, or just repeated myself with different words...

 

I really wish I could walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

 

Nah, that's okay, it was a good post, and yes, I've seen BKF's videos on youtube

 

Sometimes it can get confusing, especially with generic sounding terms like "tension", then you've got actual tension, metaphoric tension, etc etc, it can get confusing

 

But I do like your posts

[JustARandomPanda]

Then I thought, like you mentioned Creation, about moving and thinking and doing stuff in a way that doesn't produce tension.....

 

But then I was like, stillness vs. movement, relaxation vs. tension, ah, more dualities and stuff

Magick? Did someone say magick around deeze here parts?

 

I reckon I have something to share along those lines.

 

Why are you presenting this against that? Yes, that is duality. What happened with wu wei? Or better still, wei wu wei. There is this - that is all. The rose is not against the thorn. They both just are. Pee when you gotta' pee. That's all. When you are tired, rest. That's all.

Duality can increase polarity. Polarity allows for change. That also is Wu Wei (lightening is quite charged up and polarized when it strikes and it still is Wu Wei - while manifesting Yin/Yang).

 

May I present to you Neither-Neither for generating Free Belief. It is to Belief what Secret Smile is to the emotions imo.

 

Neither-Neither - excerpted from Stealing the Fire from Heaven by Stephen Mace

 

 

The Neither-Neither principle asserts that there is no truth anywhere that is not balanced by an equally true opposite somewhere, and there is only perspective and circumstance to deterimine which seems more true at any given time. to apply this principle to conjuring [or any other desired action - my note here, not the book's - SB.], wait until you are absolutely positive something is true, then search for its opposite*. When you find it, oppose it to your 'truth' and let them annihilate one another as well as they may. Any residue you should oppose to its opposite, and so on until your truth has been dismembered and the passion behind it converted into undirected energy - Free Belief. By applying Neither-Neither one can gut the meaningless convictions that obsess us every day and use the power released to cause the changes we desire.

 

Once free belief has been generated the sorcerer must focus it into his desire without allowing desire itself to contaminate his thought. To accomplish this A.O. Spare made use of sigils - linear figures the sorcerer designs to represent his wishes. Sigils serve as ways for him to focus free belief into his desires without disturbing their unconscious sleep. By using free belief to burn a sigil into his imagination, the sorcerer pushes the power thorugh his deep psyche into the Mind of God (or Tao - S.B.), where it can spawn whatever inspiration or happenstance he might require.

 

But his sigil must be special; not just any design will do. It must be psychically meaningful even as it gives NO indication of the desire it represents, and so we may not use traditional symbolism. If, for example, a wizard used the astrological symbol of the sun to designate his desire for higher wages, it would be easy for his mind to follow a logical chain leading to thoughts of energy and gold, the substance and symbol of wealth. So we need a way to design sigils that look like nothing at all.

 

Spare offers us a method so simple it may even be perfect. The wizard simply writes his desire down in a concise sentence, eliminates the duplicate letters, and then uses those remaining to make a linear design. If, for example, he wanted to bring home a fatter paycheck, his sentence could read: "Let me earn more from Morten," Morten being the name of his employer. His sigil could look like this:

 

 

 

Once the wizard has designed his sigil, he must commit it to memory. It must be so firmly in place there that he can call it into his imagination whenever he has free belief available to charge it.

 

As soon as he is sure of his sigil's shape, the wizard must begin to keep both it and his desire out of his thought. He will simply not permit himself to consider them. In The Book of Pleasure Spare wrote that when a sigil pops into the sorcerer's normal thought-stream, he must deliberately push it out, forgetting it by an act of will. This activates it so it "dominates at the unconscious period, its form nourishes, allows it to become attached to the subconsciousness and become Organic." In this way his sigil is planted, ready to be watered with whatever free belief he can pour into it.

 

To perform this watering in actual practice, the wizard must enter into a state of vacuity, generate free belief, and focus it into concentrating on his sigil.

 

Vacuity is the state of no thought, a cleared space much like a banishing gives. Though he doesn't mention banishing in The Book of Pleasure, Spare does suggest that vacuity may be produced through long walks, tennis, alcohol, yoga mantras and postures, even playing solitaire - anything to keep the magician's conscious mind on hold so it won't foul his sigil. Also, I might add that strong passion turned to free belief often results in vacuity, simply because the free belief is so intense that it doesn't permit any coherent thoughts to remain in one's mind. In such cases it is imperative for the energy to be focused into a sigil, for otherwise it will decay, becoming food for the worst sort of mental beastie.

 

In the case of our wizard's job magic, he might find himself able to charge his sigil after his wife asks, "So when are you going to paint the house already?" for the fifteenth time. Full of resentment over her shrewish tone, he would switch off the baseball game and head for the garage, then recognize that his irritation was fit power to charge free belief. So as his ego ws deadened by the rasp of his scraper, he would consider his wife's abrasive manner. Once his irritation is fully developed, he would counter it by recalling that he had promised to paint the house, that he'd been putting it off since last fall, and that the work would only get sweatier as the summer got hotter. These contrary perspectives would largely cancel each other out, but there would be a residue: an annoyance toward the house needing painting at all. To this he would oppose the fact that everything decays, and if he wished to arrest the decay he had to provide effective protection. But this would leave him with the inevitability of decay itself, which is the basis for the Buddha's First Noble Truth - that All is Sorrow. He would destroy this mood by looking for spots of pleasure close at hand, gazing down at a fire-red tulip or up to the deep blue sky, perhaps even glimpsing a tiny seagull scudding by on the high breezes.

 

By this time our wizard's annoyance will have no rational basis and the energy he had generated by resenting his wife will exist only as an undifferentiated potency - free belief. He can focus this into his will for higher wages by closing his eyes, visualizing his sigil, and using his imagination to fill it with power. The sigil should burn bright under this stimulus, white-hot against the hazy background, until the free belief is gone and the original irritation nearly forgotten. Then the design will fade away and the wizard will turn it out of mind until a new source of free belief presents itself and he calls it up for recharging. He will continue to soak his free belief into his sigil until Morten gives him more overtime, increases responsibilities, or a chance to learn a higher paying job. Or perhaps the wizard will realize that the working must fail, in which case he will abandon the sigil and choose a different tack against his problem.

 

 

*1. The Neither-Neither works against all limitation, material objects as well as political opinions and emotions of the heart. If your 'truth' is, for instance, the fact that your house exists, simply look ahead through the years, imagining its slow decay until it finally returns to the soil, even if it takes a glacier to grind it into it.

 

Notice how Neither-Neither is a very Taoist type of magick - it is the Tao's manifestation of Yin/Yang put to work for you.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Magick? Did someone say magick around deeze here parts?

 

I reckon I have something to share along those lines.

Duality can increase polarity. Polarity allows for change. That also is Wu Wei (lightening is quite charged up and polarized when it strikes and it still is Wu Wei - while manifesting Yin/Yang).

 

May I present to you Neither-Neither for generating Free Belief. It is to Belief what Secret Smile is to the emotions imo.

Notice how Neither-Neither is a very Taoist type of magick - it is the Tao's manifestation of Yin/Yang put to work for you.

 

Hmm.... veeeeerrrrrryyyy interesting

 

Thanks sereneblue!

[JustARandomPanda]

Hmm.... veeeeerrrrrryyyy interesting

 

Thanks sereneblue!

 

Thought you might like it SZ. I consider Neither-Neither to be the Belief equivalent of Secret Smile. In Secret Smile you get each emotion started by imaging a time when you experienced that emotion. You then amplify that emotion but erase the original memory that got it started. Keep the amplified emotion but stop remembering the original scene. End result is the Free Emotions all layering and blending together into Bliss.

 

This is similar to Neither-Neither. Recall an original or current belief. Oppose it so it's annihilated (matter-anti-matter). Belief is like the particle left over from the two smashing together. Doing it over and over builds up Free Belief energy but without it's original content - just like in Secret Smile.

 

Pretty cool exercise, eh?

[goldisheavy]

Zhang, you were comparing two system and asking why are they different, right? At least that's how I understood it.

 

Here's what I think about it. The reason is two-fold. What's the motivation? What's the perceived obstacle or deficit?

 

In western magick motivation is to lead a more creative, more abundant and more enchanted/interesting life. The teachings of emptiness are strongly motivated by reducing suffering.

 

Western magicians like to make stuff, because stuff is not evil. Stuff is not perceived to be an obstacle. Buddhists perceive stuff to be an obstacle and try to eliminate it. Hence monks have few possessions and clear their minds often. A guy like Frantzis probably is of a similar mindset. He probably perceives form as clutter and wants to unburden the mind from it. Western magician does not think form is burden... he/she thinks form is mostly pleasure, especially the right kind of form. So the goal is not to get rid of it, but to control forms in order to get consistently pleasurable ones. Some other schools maintain that forms are hopelessly unsatisfactory and the only worthwhile thing to do with form is to merge it back into formlessness.

 

Another way to look at it is this. If you imagine a sphere of expressiveness, then our typical common man modality is to use positive intent to a medium degree. Western mages perceive that being able to use positive intent to a large degree will yield more control. That's why Bardon spends so much time with many focusing exercises. Focusing exercises increase mastery over structure in the mind, they summon shapes or hold mental postures for a long time and so forth and you get better at this activity as you practice. Defocusing exercises like Frantzis type stuff help with dissolution of shapes, with destructuring the mind. So you get better at that (naturally) as you practice that.

 

When one has a lot of experience with structure-directed intent, one naturally begins to understand destructuring better as well, because it's two sides of the same coin. The reverse is also true. So ultimately, conceivably, both types of adepts can be close in abilities. The difference will then come from their values. What kind of life does one take to be ideal? Is life free from suffering ideal? Or is life full of meaningful suffering better? If you believe in meaningful suffering, then creativity is important. If you don't see any meaning in suffering and just want to eliminate it forever, obviously your methods will reflect that. Do you want to be a painter? Or do you want to put away the paints and forget it all? Ultimately there is no substantial difference between painting and abstaining from painting, however before you know this, you still have some relative preferences.

 

Also, I have a strong feeling that Western magic lifted a lot of concepts from all kinds of places... in other words, I think Western magic doesn't exist as an indigenous unbroken tradition of its own. Maybe druidic magic can be like that, but we have lost it. I don't know this for sure.

 

And my only understanding of Frantzis comes from what you type here, so please don't think I've read any of his stuff or watched many videos or anything like that. I'm just reacting to your words.

[rain]

Magick? Did someone say magick around deeze here parts?

 

I reckon I have something to share along those lines.

Duality can increase polarity. Polarity allows for change. That also is Wu Wei (lightening is quite charged up and polarized when it strikes and it still is Wu Wei - while manifesting Yin/Yang).

 

May I present to you Neither-Neither for generating Free Belief. It is to Belief what Secret Smile is to the emotions imo.

Notice how Neither-Neither is a very Taoist type of magick - it is the Tao's manifestation of Yin/Yang put to work for you.

 

neither neither is the trick mind flip millisecond ever never bound

of course dependant on the circumstances given & never thankful ever trickster never lonely ever falling into & dissolving into darkness or presenting image mirror indentification substance. bound to come to an end.

[EagleShen]

Great thread. Inspired my first posting.

 

I'd agree with the general gist that they're different approaches to the same thing. The deep traditions emphasise the necessity to align your will to God/the Tao/the Great Spirit/etc. and that practice and phenomena are just what they are, steps on the path. I'm not really familiar with either of those guys work, but here's my two cents worth on a more general level and in response to some of the stuff that's come up.

 

On the psychological level, generally the East has been more concerned with structure, and the west with content. The Eastern approach is that if you sort out the structure, then the contents will sort themselves out. The Western approach is that if you sort out the contents, the structure will sort itself out.

 

Hence more emphasise on dissolving all that stuff directly. And in western magick you dissolve it through the stuff. Any practice has it's learning curve though. In the apple example, engaging with an object like that so that it fully engages all your senses, do that enough so that it's no longer a conscious process and you start merging with the subtleties and presto the 'stuff' dissolves and you step into the emptiness. You go through the stuff. How different is this to learning Tai Chi though for example? You got a lot in your head when you first start, it's part of reprogramming your mind to stop the incessant grasping and hibituated thoughts. How different is this to chanting mantra? And is this so different to learning about emptiness and the practice of emptiness?

 

If every sense was totally focussed on the experience of an apple for a couple of days i reckon you'd pretty deep in. You require a will and determination beyond the ordinary to be able to master any spiritually realised state, ie the gift of a strong (but doomed) ego. The Western Tradition is more explicit about how to build the ego up perhaps.

 

As i understand it, Western magick has an emphasis on placing the ego into the service of the higher self/soul, whereas traditions of the emptiness path emphasise destroying the ego. Many Indian traditions have the same approach in this as the Western Traditions.

 

On some level i suspect they are all actually the same thing.