Western Magick and Emptiness

[Sloppy Zhang]

Zhang, you were comparing two system and asking why are they different, right? At least that's how I understood it.

 

Here's what I think about it. The reason is two-fold. What's the motivation? What's the perceived obstacle or deficit?

 

In western magick motivation is to lead a more creative, more abundant and more enchanted/interesting life. The teachings of emptiness are strongly motivated by reducing suffering.

 

Western magicians like to make stuff, because stuff is not evil. Stuff is not perceived to be an obstacle. Buddhists perceive stuff to be an obstacle and try to eliminate it. Hence monks have few possessions and clear their minds often. A guy like Frantzis probably is of a similar mindset. He probably perceives form as clutter and wants to unburden the mind from it. Western magician does not think form is burden... he/she thinks form is mostly pleasure, especially the right kind of form. So the goal is not to get rid of it, but to control forms in order to get consistently pleasurable ones. Some other schools maintain that forms are hopelessly unsatisfactory and the only worthwhile thing to do with form is to merge it back into formlessness.

 

Another way to look at it is this. If you imagine a sphere of expressiveness, then our typical common man modality is to use positive intent to a medium degree. Western mages perceive that being able to use positive intent to a large degree will yield more control. That's why Bardon spends so much time with many focusing exercises. Focusing exercises increase mastery over structure in the mind, they summon shapes or hold mental postures for a long time and so forth and you get better at this activity as you practice. Defocusing exercises like Frantzis type stuff help with dissolution of shapes, with destructuring the mind. So you get better at that (naturally) as you practice that.

 

When one has a lot of experience with structure-directed intent, one naturally begins to understand destructuring better as well, because it's two sides of the same coin. The reverse is also true. So ultimately, conceivably, both types of adepts can be close in abilities. The difference will then come from their values. What kind of life does one take to be ideal? Is life free from suffering ideal? Or is life full of meaningful suffering better? If you believe in meaningful suffering, then creativity is important. If you don't see any meaning in suffering and just want to eliminate it forever, obviously your methods will reflect that. Do you want to be a painter? Or do you want to put away the paints and forget it all? Ultimately there is no substantial difference between painting and abstaining from painting, however before you know this, you still have some relative preferences.

 

Also, I have a strong feeling that Western magic lifted a lot of concepts from all kinds of places... in other words, I think Western magic doesn't exist as an indigenous unbroken tradition of its own. Maybe druidic magic can be like that, but we have lost it. I don't know this for sure.

 

And my only understanding of Frantzis comes from what you type here, so please don't think I've read any of his stuff or watched many videos or anything like that. I'm just reacting to your words.

 

Actually your post was very interesting and even though you don't know the works of these guys, your comments were rather appropriate for their general direction. Much appreciated

 

Great thread. Inspired my first posting.

 

I'd agree with the general gist that they're different approaches to the same thing. The deep traditions emphasise the necessity to align your will to God/the Tao/the Great Spirit/etc. and that practice and phenomena are just what they are, steps on the path. I'm not really familiar with either of those guys work, but here's my two cents worth on a more general level and in response to some of the stuff that's come up.

 

On the psychological level, generally the East has been more concerned with structure, and the west with content. The Eastern approach is that if you sort out the structure, then the contents will sort themselves out. The Western approach is that if you sort out the contents, the structure will sort itself out.

 

Hence more emphasise on dissolving all that stuff directly. And in western magick you dissolve it through the stuff. Any practice has it's learning curve though. In the apple example, engaging with an object like that so that it fully engages all your senses, do that enough so that it's no longer a conscious process and you start merging with the subtleties and presto the 'stuff' dissolves and you step into the emptiness. You go through the stuff. How different is this to learning Tai Chi though for example? You got a lot in your head when you first start, it's part of reprogramming your mind to stop the incessant grasping and hibituated thoughts. How different is this to chanting mantra? And is this so different to learning about emptiness and the practice of emptiness?

 

If every sense was totally focussed on the experience of an apple for a couple of days i reckon you'd pretty deep in. You require a will and determination beyond the ordinary to be able to master any spiritually realised state, ie the gift of a strong (but doomed) ego. The Western Tradition is more explicit about how to build the ego up perhaps.

 

As i understand it, Western magick has an emphasis on placing the ego into the service of the higher self/soul, whereas traditions of the emptiness path emphasise destroying the ego. Many Indian traditions have the same approach in this as the Western Traditions.

 

On some level i suspect they are all actually the same thing.

 

Great insights, actually. I like what you mentioned about the apple, and stepping into awareness through the object.

[JustARandomPanda]

SZ, You might want to check out Leonora Leet's The Secret Doctrine of the Kabbalah:Recovering the Key to Hebraic Sacred Science. It has to be one of the most in-depth examinations of the Kabbalah I've ever seen.

 

Also Witch is into magick so she might be able to comment or answer questions.

[Old Man Contradiction]

I used to practice depossession with someone who came from theosophy. Her teacher was student of C.W. Leadbeater. She practiced qigong for grounding and transforming the pain body. She once told me that depossession and emptiness meditation are really synergistic with each other. Seeing as how depossession is magickal, this may apply.

[JustARandomPanda]

I used to practice depossession with someone who came from theosophy. Her teacher was student of C.W. Leadbeater. She practiced qigong for grounding and transforming the pain body. She once told me that depossession and emptiness meditation are really synergistic with each other. Seeing as how depossession is magickal, this may apply.

What is depossession?

 

What is the pain body?

[EagleShen]

Not sure about depossession, but the pain body is rooted in a shamanic concept that your emotional/psychic pain actually forms an energetic body, and that this pain body can run your life, indeed it pulls the strings of pretty much anyone not endeavouring to be conscious of their 'stuff'. It's a way of locating and tackling the unconscious pain that informs so much of most people's reactions. Eckhart Tolle uses the concept, but the best examination of it that i've seen is in Arnold Mindell's 'The Shaman's Body'.