Karezza & taoist sexual practice

[yabyum24]

More or less the same thing?

[yabyum24]

53 views and no reply? Okay, perhaps I was jumping the gun a tad. I happened upon a page which I found very informative:

http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/taoism_ch...e_sexology_wile

 

This lead to another interesting page, as these things do:

http://www.luckymojo.com/tktechniques.html

 

Both share similarities with tantric consort practice, at least on some levels, hence my interest in what the taoist practitioners here think about it.

 

I hope I've not hit a taboo subject. Apologies if I have.

 

Namaste

[11:33]

It's not taboo. I don't have an answer for you though. Hopefully someone will pop out of the woodwork.

[Mal]

[yabyum24]

Physical pleasure, better health, and spiritual benefit are three arrears which Taoist practices have emphasized at various times throughout it's evolution. So depending on what style of practices you decide to follow they are results that you may have.

Thanks Mal,

I would be interested in how "spiritual benefit" is derived within the techniques of taoist sexual teachings.

 

I guess you allude to it here:

begin with form move to formless

 

Are there specific teachings for how to accomplish this?

 

they must do it correctly and selflessly because like any method it can be misused or misunderstood

Absolutely.

 

Namaste

[Mal]

[JustARandomPanda]

I have the book Cupid's Poisoned Arrow which is authored by the couple who started Reuniting.info. The book spends a lot of time building the case that current medical/science research is confirming the benefits of Taoist and Karezza practices.

 

The authors believe research now shows there's a biochemical reason why non-ejaculatory and/or intercourse without orgasm shows multiple health and psychological benefits. Orgasm in particular in both males and females triggers energy depletion as well as lowering of multiple hormones needed for health and upbeat mood. The brains of men and women who have frequent orgasms (whether from sex with a partner or from just masturbation and/or JO-ing to porn) show an uncanny resemblance to the hyperstimulated brains of cocaine and heroin addicts. In men hardcore addicted to porn there are actual physiological withdrawal symptoms - pretty much the same as what drug addicts going cold-turkey in rehab go through. The withdrawal symptoms can put them through weeks of hell. They are literally kicking a habit that has harmed and changed their brains as much as cocaine and heroin.

 

They also say some research is starting to show that sex with orgasm sets up a gradual weakening of the love bonds a couple have for each other. They believe this is due to our mammalian genetic heritage and call it the add-a-mate strategy. After about 4 or 5 years the irritation (low dopamine/low vasopressin/oxytocin depletion cycles due to constant orgasm driven sex ) people are most at risk for splitting up. Many couples instead of splitting up just find their sex life withering away instead. It's why there are so many sexless and low-sex marriages.

 

They believe there's enough research now to show that it may have little to do with psychological or other claimed 'irreconcilable differences' one hears about in divorce court. Rather they believe research shows frequent orgasms have the peculiar habit of eroding couple's bonds to one another. They definitely kill oxytocin and vassopressin - the two hormones which bind mates long term to each other with love. They believe in our orgasm-chasing/revering culture it could also be inadvertently leading to the rise in people who never marry and just hop from one relationship to the next ('serial monogamy').

 

I liked their references how modern research is backing up many of the claims of the ancient Taoist love texts. They don't mention whether they believe any of the energy benefits or inner alchemy stuff although I do know the woman of the couple says she doesn't believe it's the actual semen retained that gives semen retention it's benefits. Rather she believes research shows it's beneficial due to the cascade of higher levels of healing / health hormones which EJ-ing always depletes.

 

I haven't finished it but so far I am impressed with the book. If what they are saying is true then society is only going to see *more* divorce and marriage may well become archaic. Everywhere men and women are having it drilled into their heads that more orgasms are better (if that really were true men addicted to porn would be the healthiest and most spiritually and emotionally fulfilled people on the planet).

 

It seems frequent orgasms and long term happy marriage bonds are difficult to maintain together for decades on end. Somehow the ancient Taoists knew this. How they did I don't know but they did and they came up with ways to work with and turn on our genetic love-bonding mechanisms during sex instead of hyper stimulating our genetic bond-weakening mechanisms. And they didn't need expensive medical research to figure it out either.

 

The more I learn about how current research is confirming what the Ancients knew the more it takes my breath away at just how much wisdom they attained.

 

 

 

Edit: I've finished the book. Very much recommend it.

Edited September 12, 2009 by SereneBlue

[mat black]

Good review, thanks. That book sounds very similar to the bits and pieces I read from another book on their site 'Peace between the sheets", also very well written. Sounds like they're essentially saying the same thing, very sound advice.

Edited July 5, 2009 by mat black

[Mal]

The brains of men and women who have frequent orgasms (whether from sex with a partner or from just masturbation and/or JO-ing to porn) show an uncanny resemblance to the hyperstimulated brains of cocaine and heroin addicts. In men hardcore addicted to porn there are actual physiological withdrawal symptoms

<snip>

They also say some research is starting to show that sex with orgasm sets up a gradual weakening of the love bonds a couple have for each other. They believe this is due to our mammalian genetic heritage and call it the add-a-mate strategy. After about 4 or 5 years the irritation (low dopamine/low vasopressin/oxytocin depletion cycles due to constant orgasm driven sex ) people are most at risk for splitting up. Many couples instead of splitting up just find their sex life withering away instead.

 

Interesting stuff, thanks. I wonder if there is any research on hormone levels in men where orgasm is separated from ejaculation, you would have to assume the results would be similar to women.

 

It's not p.c. but if I can generalize the taoist perspective it seems to favor multiple partners as well as no EJ. But it's hard to know if thats just because historically the ruling class in a position to pursue such endeavors had harems.

[yabyum24]

I do know the woman of the couple says she doesn't believe it's the actual semen retained that gives semen retention it's benefits.

I'd like to say I agree with this statement, as it's something I've observed myself.

 

The debate around this topic (within society as a whole) seems unable to escape the paradigm of orgasm - however it is viewed, it is either a 'given' of one kind or another or, for some, an evil to be suppressed. Two sides of the same coin IMHO.

That's why I find the taoist and Karezza perspective very refreshing, as it demonstrates a fundamentally different 'transformative' approach to the issue.

 

Sutric Buddhism shows us how to investigate the origin of desire and observe how it arises - in an almost Pavlovian manner - when confronted with stimuli. We, therefore, gain an opportunity to "release" such habitual impulses as they arise.

 

Buddhist Tantra, whilst aiming to utilize and transform desire into the path, has scant information on the subject of consort practice within the public domain and in some cases it is hard to distinguish secrecy from discouragement.

 

It may seem harsh, but in my opinion, the much-touted literary ideal of a young initiated consort (paired by the master to a disciple) is little more than a culturally untranslatable relic. As modern, urban people we have very different circumstances and must find a means of incorporating 'them', rather than romanticizing about that which we will never have.

 

That said, I feel spiritual transformation of our sexual energy is possible, if we can escape the conditioning to which we have been subjected since our early years and all of the above methods have plenty to contribute - hence my enquiry into taoist practices.

 

Thanks for all the replies so far. I'm glad it's not a taboo subject. Is the Bedchamber book the definitive guide, or are there other sources?

 

Namaste

[JustARandomPanda]

Interesting stuff, thanks. I wonder if there is any research on hormone levels in men where orgasm is separated from ejaculation, you would have to assume the results would be similar to women.

 

They say the research shows the side effects happen to women just as with with men. Orgasms (not just EJ only) are harmful to both. And it's especially harmful if two people plan to be together for longer than 4-5 years. Which is why they say unless you have the specific goal of trying for a pregnancy it's better to learn ways to have orgasm-less sex.

Edited July 5, 2009 by SereneBlue

[yabyum24]

 

They say the research shows the side effects happen to women just as with with men. Orgasms (not just EJ only) are harmful to both. And it's especially harmful if two people plan to be together for longer than 4-5 years. Which is why they say unless you have the specific goal of trying for a pregnancy it's better to learn ways to have orgasm-less sex.

A very good point. It has been my experience that orgasm depletes the power of the 'dream body' (or whatever term you wish to use to describe it). It tears off energy and weakens the structure. Internal retention is even worse - as the energy is still torn off but remains lose within the body of the person, which can lead to all sorts of health problems. Oddly enough, semen is not necessarily linked to this energy. If it is released without orgasm, then the energy does not go with it.

 

I have also never felt that nocturnal emissions have ever depleted my energy levels, as they always occur for me within the context of erotic dreams and the dream body is somehow disengaged from direct attachment to the physical body. It prompts ejaculation from the sleeping body without being damaged itself. But this is just my own experience and not something I've been taught, or have on authority.

 

Better, like you say, to learn ways of orgasm-less sex. If the taoist teachings are right, then this leads to an increase of energy and a more non-obsessive approach to sex.

[krazykoyote]

The fatal flaw here is the persuit of the orgasm, where the focus should be on the lovemaking. The couple needs to get out of the mindset of the orgasm is the goal, and just enjoy each other. Take things slow and savor each other. The Chi willl build between the two and create a union between the two that rivals and can surpass an orgasm. I am not saying do away with it, but that is not the focus, not the intent of the encounter.

 

An excellent book on this is "The Tao of love and Sex", It teaches male ejaculation control, but most of the text is based on ancient Taoist texts (most of which I am still trying to find in english) that explain the importance of the lovemaking act itself not the (bred into our minds) orgasm that must be achieved for satisfaction.

[Mal]

[yabyum24]

[krazykoyote]

Very true, if we could take some of the time devoted to sports or TV and focus it on our partner, and lovemaking.........

[yabyum24]

Very true, if we could take some of the time devoted to sports or TV and focus it on our partner, and lovemaking.........

 

Especially if they throw in the popcorn!

[Mal]

Yes take out the opiate of the masses, TV and increasingly the net and

More time for love

+

much less porn

 

I also wonder what contraception has done to us. Sex would be an entirely different ballgame (sports reference ) if there was a chance of children..... Plus growing up in the late 80's with the Aids scare and safe sex education having unprotected sex or even actually trying to get someone pregnant just seems.... wrong

[yabyum24]

More time for love

+

much less porn

 

Good point Mal. Porn has a very detrimental effect, which I find sex does not, even if continence is used with respect to both. If I practice YabYum then I come away tremendously energised, if I use porn, then I feel physically sh*t afterwards, even if there no orgasm.

 

It's a question of intent. You can't approach consort work with sexual greed, as it will just descend into normal sex. Porn, on the other hand, is designed to satisfy this greed, it exists for that reason alone. The energy is pulled into bad places in my experience.

 

The taoist teachings on the sharing of energy have put many experiences into context for me.

 

Namaste

[JustARandomPanda]

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Edited September 12, 2009 by SereneBlue

[yabyum24]

I'm still trying to get over my depression at never having known what an orgasm is like. This book has helped me somewhat - although not completely - to feel a little bit better.

You can't be addicted to that which you have never experienced, so there's a benefit there straight away.

[BaguaKicksAss]

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