Why e-sangha is starting to get on my nerves

[innerspace_cadet]

I have been a member of e-sangha for at least four years, and during that time, I noticed some irritating changes in the forum that I don't like.

 

-Posts that question or point out the likely flaws in Buddhist thought are either moved or blocked. I have seen this several times.

-In the meditation forum, you can now only talk about Buddhist forms of meditation, nothing else.

-In the comparative religion forum, you can no longer discuss non-Buddhist religions by themselves. In each and every post you have to compare non-Buddhist religions to Buddhism.

 

And there are the fundamentalists who insist that Buddhism is the only path to enlightenment and engage in endless (and pointless) arguments about the literal truth of rebirth, among other things. The sheer amount of groupthink in that forum is starting to perturb me, to say the least. There are too many members on that forum who simply regurgitate Buddhist doctrines ad nauseum like robots.

 

Needless to say, I mostly hang out in this forum, because it is much more open ended and easy going. I don't have to worry about a Moderator getting on someone's case for "slandering the Dharma" (a.k.a questioning Buddhism) or some other trivial act.

[Enishi]

Bible Thumpers and Sutra Thumpers and College Textbook Thumpers are all pretty much cut from the same cloth IMO.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Enishi

[Tokoyo Tama]

Dogma is dogma no matter what form it takes, although everyone subscribing to a dogma wishes to believe that their rules hold the true truths and so are outside of the realm of dogma.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Yup, noticed that too. All my posts got deleted once the discussion evolved into something much broader and open ended. .

 

But hey, it's a forum on Buddhism. There are a lot of sects. There are a lot of members posting here and there everyday. I feel like it's necessary to keep it in order so that new comers can learn about Buddhism in an easier fashion than having to shift through so much material.

[Sunya]

well it is afterall a Buddhist forum. the comparative religion section used to be very popular but debates got pretty heated there so now its only limited to discussing Buddhism, I see nothing wrong with that as there are plenty of other places (like here) to discuss non-Buddhist topics. and as most topics have already been discussed you can just search for them. and yes, only Buddhist meditation is discussed.. as it is as Buddhist forum, I see nothing wrong with that.

 

as for questioning Buddhist teachings, I think if its done respectfully there is no issue with that. I admit people can be pretty dogmatic on there, but we can't generalize and say the whole forum is participating in group-think and comparing them to Bible-thumpers. in the Beginner Buddhism forum you can question all you want, Buddhists afterall are supposed to be critical thinkers and question everything.

 

there is definitely a lot of over-moderating there, but that is just their style. I think if you appreciate E-Sangha for what it is, you can get a lot out of it. I've learned so much on there but only after I learned how to be respectful and ask things the right way. Also, there are so many knowledgable people on there, very highly accomplished, you can find them very easily and send them PMs instead of starting a new thread, people tend to be much more 'giving' in private messages.

 

generally, Buddhists aren't supposed to talk about a lot of things publicly such as experiences and realizations, you discuss that with your teacher not on a public message board. maybe thats why theres so much moderating there... to avoid confusion and further delusion.. in the end, I think, the moderators are your friends.

[Siliconvalley1]

Edited July 4, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[xabir2005]

-In the comparative religion forum, you can no longer discuss non-Buddhist religions by themselves. In each and every post you have to compare non-Buddhist religions to Buddhism.

 

Actually, they removed the comparative religion section long ago. Which IMO is not necessary.

[yabyum24]

It's okay if you require certain basic facts about Buddhism but it doesn't do to express an 'opinion' or stray into any territory they consider off limits. You'll get stamped on pretty quickly. This sort of fundamentalist mindset is not conducive to the genuine exchange of personal information between practitioners, as experience tends to never quite 100% match what is written in the texts.

 

Best to pm members, or meet them on other boards to get any experiential information.

[ralis]

I think the papers on this site are well worth reading. Excellent analysis as to why pathological trance is so pervasive in all religion. That includes Buddhism!

 

http://trance.edu/drupal/

 

ralis

[Pietro]

I think the papers on this site are well worth reading. Excellent analysis as to why pathological trance is so pervasive in all religion. That includes Buddhism!

 

http://trance.edu/drupal/

 

ralis

I have to admit I fail to see what does this have to do with this thread, but I have to admit I really can see what this have to do with my life in this moment! Thank you very much!!!

[DarkMind]

I hang out there as well.

 

You need to recognize that the moderators are not Enlightened.

 

If you wish to hear the views of Enlightened people, there's one I know: Garchen Rinpoche.

 

You will find the things he says free of conceptual thinking that many regard as Buddhism.

 

[mat black]

There are some very sincere and understanding members there nonetheless.

 

If anyone's interested in hearing some more Dharma talks, I find Reverend Heng Sure's lectures/talks wonderful. Very warm and inspiring. Rather than me say anymore, if any one is interested, here's a link:

 

http://www.dharmaradio.org/dharmatalks/index.htm

 

Here's some info:

Rev. Heng Sure, Director of Berkeley Buddhist Monastery

Dharma Master Heng Sure was ordained as a Buddhist monk in 1976. For the sake of world peace, he undertook an over six hundred mile pilgrimage from South Pasadena to Ukiah, repeatedly taking three steps and one bow to cover the entire journey. In the entire two years taken to make the pilgrimage, he observed a practice of total silence. Rev. Heng Sure has an M.A. in Oriental Languages from UC Berkeley, and a Ph.D. from the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley. He serves as the Managing Director of the Berkeley Buddhist Monastery and teaches on the staff at the Institute for World Religions. He lectures on the Avamtasak Sutra at the Berkeley Monastery every Saturday evening. He is actively involved in interfaith dialogue and in the ongoing conversation between spirituality and technology.

[Siliconvalley1]

If you wish to hear the views of Enlightened people, there's one I know: Garchen Rinpoche.

 

You will find the things he says free of conceptual thinking that many regard as Buddhism.

 

 

 

Amazing Person ...

 

 

[mat black]

Yes.

Much respect to him.

His accounts and talks on the film 'the yogis of Tibet' are heart warming. Very good if anyone hasn't seen it. (especially the story that the Dalai Lama tells)

Edited July 5, 2009 by mat black

[Gerard]

You never learn and experience Buddhism, Taoism and any other "ism" by reading others.

 

Examples of how you learn:

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxJ7DX6FyqI...feature=related

 

The rest is all yabba, yabba, yabba, blah, blah, blah.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

I agree! The forum is quite biased.

[Pero]

Yeah it's like when you go to a christian church the priest is so biased, he doesn't speak about anything other than christianity. I mean seriously, the nerve some people have right?

[Siliconvalley1]

Yeah it's like when you go to a christian church the priest is so biased, he doesn't speak about anything other than christianity. I mean seriously, the nerve some people have right?

 

 

Seriously some nerve

 

No wonder there is a cry of protest from some Buddhists when even the word Christian occurs in the same sentence as Buddhism. There is nothing similar between the two (except may be the above one)

 

If you notice the entire thread, bias is not about other religions, which of course is evident there, but even on other sects within Buddhism. Some nerve to point out the inconsistencies of the perfect E-Sangha ah?

Edited July 6, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[goldisheavy]

Brings back the memories. Gratuitous opinions follow.

 

Namdrol has some good insights, or at the very least, he has a decent taste in teachings and can explain them well. However, he is indeed a fundamentalist and is mentally inflexible. When Namdrol stays in his domain of knowledge and comfort, he can be a useful resource, but he lacks the holistic view of phenomena, so if you take him even slightly out of his favored domains, his signal to noise ratio drops dramatically. I think it comes from insecurity. He think the Dharma is so precious that if he doesn't defend it now, it will die forever. He's attached himself to what he perceived to be Dharma. He doesn't understand that it's an illusion. Yes, even Buddha is nothing but an empty phenomenon, equally empty as a toothbrush. The fact that someone gives Buddha more importance than to a toothbrush is just a peculiarity of the mindset, and not necessarily a good one too. It may be good. It may not be. It depends.

 

Overall e-sangha is a very stifling and unwelcome atmosphere. It's way too easy to say the wrong thing, and unless you don't say anything interesting at all, it's almost impossible to say anything right. Plus, there are some members on the forum that pretend to be masters, but who are actually morons in disguise. I am itching to name a few, but I will spare their egos this time. But they are well known and well respected people (unfortunately, because people should not respect them as much as they do). They construct this ingrained and crusty personas, they try to move slow like elephants to give themselves an aura of gravity, and they manifest behavior that they think makes them elephant-like, but when you ask them easy questions, they have no answers, and they are hopelessly lost. They go around advocating "standard" Buddhist approaches, but if you question those approaches, they are gone. They can't answer. In other words, what's happening to these fake masters is that they rely on the Buddhist methods in a very mindless and passive manner. They just follow them without owning them. If you own something you know how to destroy it and make it new again. If you can't do that, then you're renting. Lots of pretend-Buddhist-masters are renting Buddhist knowledge. They don't own it. And it shows if you ask them a pointed question.

 

In the past e-sangha was more openly readable to all too, but I see they've been making it more and more private. More and more forums require registration now. That's another thing that I don't like. I guess they don't want the world to see how ugly Buddhism can be.

 

It's very unfortunate, because Buddha had a few good insights, but they are getting drowned out in the sea of dogma, fundamentalism and mindless repetition of rituals (of which meditation is one... yes, it's a ritual, and often mindless one too, just something you "supposed" to do as a Buddhist).

 

Yeah it's like when you go to a christian church the priest is so biased, he doesn't speak about anything other than christianity. I mean seriously, the nerve some people have right?

 

 

That's right. This priest was a human being before he became a priest. How dare he forget that fact? What a moron. Kick him in the balls.

[Pero]

but even on other sects within Buddhism.

 

Not sure what you mean here.

 

Some nerve to point out the inconsistencies of the perfect E-Sangha ah?

 

Not at all. I have my own gripes with some things sometimes, I just don't usually complain about it.

 

My previous Buddhist teacher had a series of arguments with him when he declared: There is no reason to respect the teachings of other religions.

 

Yes I know this position of Namdrol's and don't agree with it. Was a little surprised when he said it (on E-Sangha, not where you're talking about, wasn't around hehe).

 

The E-Sangha TOS is strict, perhaps too much, but when I occasionally look at the other larger Buddhist forums... Well I think it's better that way.

[mat black]

You never learn and experience Buddhism, Taoism and any other "ism" by reading others.

 

The rest is all yabba, yabba, yabba, blah, blah, blah.

 

There is no substitute for application and practice, however, to say that one cannot learn from reading is not entirely true. If one is genuine and sincere, reading can be of much benefit.

 

To encounter these texts is something that some people appreciate and do not take for granted.

 

Thanks to Master Hua.

 

http://www.gbm-online.com/Sutras.asp

 

 

mindless repetition of rituals (of which meditation is one... yes, it's a ritual, and often mindless one too, just something you "supposed" to do as a Buddhist).

Comments like this that make sweeping generalisations are misguided at best.

Although Buddhist 'rituals' may appear to be superficial and mindlesss to the outside observer, they actually have a depth and profundity that is inconceivable to most. Those who know the purpose of such things do not dismiss them as mindless.

 

In regard to meditation, it's not that it is 'mindless' per se rather, it is dependent on how much effort and concentration an individual is applying which wil determine whether they are mindless, mindfull or somewhere in between.

Meditation as a practice is useful in order to gradually arrive at a way of being where ultimately one has complete mindfullnesss at all times entirely free of all delusion in views and thought, with complete understanding, wisdom and compassion.

 

Even those who have had 'spontaneous' awakenings to such truths and ways of being have often been practitioners of meditation in former lives.

Edited July 7, 2009 by mat black

[Siliconvalley1]

Edited July 7, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[innerspace_cadet]

Yeah it's like when you go to a christian church the priest is so biased, he doesn't speak about anything other than christianity. I mean seriously, the nerve some people have right?

 

No, that's not what my problem with e-sangha is. I don't expect to go to a christian church and hear the priest talk about other religions. I'd just like him not to vilify them, or to claim that Christianity has an exclusive copyright on truth. But that's what has been happening on e-sangha, and it isn't in the spirit of Buddhism.

 

There is a lot of b.s. on e-sangha, like the claim that the Kalama Sutta wasn't intended for Buddhists, only for the Kalamas, as if the Buddha would say one thing to a Buddhist, and another to a non-Buddhist. Or the statement on the front page of their web site that Buddhism has a completely spotless history "un-marred by any political or religious fervours which so many other traditions have suffered from in the past." I think the families of the people killed in the decades long civil war in Sri Lanka would beg to differ with that assertion.

 

E-sangha isn't completely bad. There are a lot of members who have such a depth of knowledge of Buddhism that would prove priceless to sincere seekers. And it provides a virtual community for solitary practitioners who live 50 miles from the nearest Buddhist center. But I think the administrators and moderators are becoming overly protective of what they think is "authentic" Dharma, which is just another attachment.

 

There are too many "Barnes and Noble" Buddhists who think that Buddhism is whatever it means to you. Some of these misguided Buddhists have gone onto e-sangha to claim that the Buddha taught rebirth as a metaphor, when he clearly did not. But I think in their zeal to stamp out this problem, e-sangha has gone too far. You should be able to question the Buddha's teachings, even criticize them. If the Buddha had truly let go of his ego, you could say to his face that you think rebirth is hooey, and he would not be offended in the slightest. There is a difference between making false claims about what the Buddha taught, and questioning what the Buddha actually taught.

[ZenStatic]

Plus, there are some members on the forum that pretend to be masters, but who are actually morons in disguise.

 

Pot meet kettle? All one has to do is read most of your past posts to lump you into the same category.

 

It's very unfortunate, because Buddha had a few good insights, but they are getting drowned out in the sea of dogma, fundamentalism and mindless repetition of rituals (of which meditation is one... yes, it's a ritual, and often mindless one too, just something you "supposed" to do as a Buddhist).

 

This right here just shows how little you actually know of Buddhist practice and thought. You do realize that Tai Chi and Qi Gong are considered forms of meditation as well, right? It's all about calming the mind. Maybe you should give it a whirl.

 

No, that's not what my problem with e-sangha is. I don't expect to go to a christian church and hear the priest talk about other religions. I'd just like him not to vilify them, or to claim that Christianity has an exclusive copyright on truth. But that's what has been happening on e-sangha, and it isn't in the spirit of Buddhism.

 

While I agree it's not the spirit of Buddhism, I have to disagree with your gross misrepresentation of Christianity here. It DOES claim copyright on truth. Even as far as to say that its deity IS The Truth.

[innerspace_cadet]

Pot meet kettle? All one has to do is read most of your past posts to lump you into the same category.

This right here just shows how little you actually know of Buddhist practice and thought. You do realize that Tai Chi and Qi Gong are considered forms of meditation as well, right? It's all about calming the mind. Maybe you should give it a whirl.

While I agree it's not the spirit of Buddhism, I have to disagree with your gross misrepresentation of Christianity here. It DOES claim copyright on truth. Even as far as to say that its deity IS The Truth.

 

You're right. Christianity does claim a copyright on truth, my bad. But that does make his analogy suspect, because comparing going to a Christian Church and logging on to e-sangha as equivalent is like comparing apples to oranges.