A Perspective On 'Taoist' Cultivation

[Iskote]

Many say Lao Tzu was a great sage. He wrote of his understanding and views of

the 'way'. He wrote of cultivating virtue, freeing the self of attachments, and following

the 'natural way'. He also left sign posts for others cultivating the way. The problem is

not everyone is an enlightened sage. Many practices, traditions, and beliefs arose from

people of various views and persuasions, based on their understanding, beliefs and views,

and all claiming to be of the way. Just because various traditions and practices arose

and carried on for a long time, and which claimed to be, or were referred to, as 'Taoism', it doesn't

necessarily mean that they are all good, or are really of the way that the sages spoke of. That

is not to say that good traditions did not arise and get passed on, but we need to use some judgement

here is what I am suggesting. That is not to say it is an easy task. Most of us are not sages so our own judgement is clearly going to be lacking in many cases. I know, many may disagree... That is 'natural'.

 

I don't think Lao Tzu wrote about how to have better orgasms, or how to increase sexual prowess,

or how to jump up to the roof of your house in one bound, or how to be the best in martial arts,

or how to become famous, or how to develop super powers, or how to become rich. It seems to me

he did write about freeing the self from such attachments, cultivating virtue, and gave hints about

cultivation, and described sign posts of what may be experienced in cultivating the 'way'.

 

Regarding 'naturalness', this is open to much interpretation based on one'e level of understanding,

personal leanings and beliefs, etc. What one may interpret as natural function or action from their

perspective, may not be at all what the sages were referring to when discussing higher cultivation.

If one is thinking why can't one cultivate the way and 'enjoy' themself along the way as well, this is really

a focus on the attachments of self, and is likely not what the sages such as Lao Tzu were referring to, IMO,

even though one may think that such things are 'natural'. That is just my own personal view. Nothing more...

I am not suggesting that one needs to suffer either. Just suggesting that removing attachments is no small

task for most of us. It seems many practices and traditions arose that have a view of 'naturalness' that appears different, at least to me, than what sages such as Lao Tzu were speaking of, but, again, this just my

view. There are many, many views. One has to be practical, but what is 'practical' is open to interpretation too.

 

There are many practices and traditions claiming to be of the 'way', or of 'Taoism', as it is referred to.

Again, that doesn't necessarily make them practices that are truly in line with what the sages spoke of.

So many speak of 'Taoism' as if it is some single clearly defined set of practices and beliefs. Such is not the

case at all, from what I can see. Questions about what does 'Taoism' think about this or that, show a misunderstanding about what has become to be known as 'Taoism', IMO. There are no clear cut answers.

There are various traditions that might have some semblance of an agreed upon view from each particular

tradition's perspective, but the traditions have been evolving over time as well, as the times

and people's views change. I think it is good to keep this all in mind when discussing 'Taoism'.

Personally I think I am going to avoid the term 'Taoism' as much as possible from now on, due to the

above described reasons.

Anyway, just some thoughts from my current perspective. Nothing more...

 

Best wishes and thoughts from Iskote...

 

[Edits: Fixed some of my many spelling and grammatical mistakes. ]

Edited July 4, 2009 by Iskote

[Ramon25]

you can enjoy yourself and still be unattached to the outcome.

[Iskote]

you can enjoy yourself and still be unattached to the outcome.

 

Yes, that may well be the case, but if one is placing importance on enjoying themself,

then I don't think there can be real detachment there, which is more what I was alluding to.

I really just wanted to present that as a contrast to some of the many views and practices that

are being referred to as 'Taoism' these days. Also, I think the term 'Taoism' is often used these

days more for its marketing impact than anything else.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Iskote

[Ramon25]

Oh I see what you mean. But I would beg to diifer on your view. Doaist also put alot of emphasis on longevity. Alot of these practices (sexual Ect) our aimed at such a thing and have an old hostory. Again Taoism does not end with lao tzu. But I guess I see what you mean. I think on of the purest daoist traditions out there now is the water method, internal martial arts, various forms of chigung and longevity practices. But sexual practices have a long history in taoism, we dont know if lao tzu did them or not so i would not assume to much.

[Iskote]

Oh I see what you mean. But I would beg to diifer on your view. Doaist also put alot of emphasis on longevity. Alot of these practices (sexual Ect) our aimed at such a thing and have an old hostory. Again Taoism does not end with lao tzu. But I guess I see what you mean. I think on of the purest daoist traditions out there now is the water method, internal martial arts, various forms of chigung and longevity practices. But sexual practices have a long history in taoism, we dont know if lao tzu did them or not so i would not assume to much.

 

My view is there are many views, so what you are saying does not seem to me to be at

odds with what I have said. We each have to make our own decisions using our own judgement,

and go our own way. Lao Tzu wrote of being virtuous, not striving, stilling the mind, and keeping things

simple, and results will come naturally. Why then do people complicate things with various complicated practices? Perhaps because if it seems too plain and simple it does not appeal to or suit the mind and ego.

My view is just one view amongst many. Nothing more.

 

"It appeals neither to the eye nor the ear, yet its supply is inexhaustible and its usefullness everlasting."

 

 

Best wishes from iskote...

Edited July 4, 2009 by Iskote

[Ramon25]

My view is there are many views, so what you are saying does not seem to me to be at

odds with what I have said. We each have to make our own decisions using our own judgement,

and go our own way. Lao Tzu wrote of being virtuous, not striving, stilling the mind, and keeping things

simple, and results will come naturally. Why then do people complicate things with various complicated practices? Perhaps because if it seems too plain and simple it does not appeal to or suit the mind and ego.

My view is just one view amongst many. Nothing more.

 

"It appeals neither to the eye nor the ear, yet its supply is inexhaustible and its usefullness everlasting."

Best wishes from iskote...

 

very wise.

[Creation]

I don't think Lao Tzu wrote about how to have better orgasms, or how to increase sexual prowess,

or how to jump up to the roof of your house in one bound, or how to be the best in martial arts,

or how to become famous, or how to develop super powers, or how to become rich. It seems to me

he did write about freeing the self from such attachments, cultivating virtue, and gave hints about

cultivation, and described sign posts of what may be experienced in cultivating the 'way'.

Is it not natural for a Tao pursuer to apply the principles of Tao to all aspects of life? So a Tao pursing soldier will apply Taoist principles to martial arts, a Tao pursuing householder to his intimacy with his wife, etc. These may later come to stand on there own without the root in Tao pursuance. But is this not merely because there are so few who truly desire to follow the Great Way? So the Tao pursuer can teach others the derived arts divorced from the root in hopes that others will derive some benefit, or choose to keep it hidden so that people do not get caught up in side paths. Both have happened throughout history, both have their time and place.

 

It is unfortunate that these things are substituted for the Great Way or True Spirituality. Perhaps they do serve as a stepping stone. But most unfortunate is when the derived arts are divorced from the Great Way for too long and become muddled and corrupted (e.g. many sexual practices out there today calling themselves Taoism). These are no longer a even a stepping stone.

 

I think that if you are a true Tao pursuer, even if you get caught up in some not-so-great stuff temporarily due to ignorance, Heaven will not fail to reward pure intentions.

[Iskote]

I think that if you are a true Tao pursuer, even if you get caught up in some not-so-great stuff temporarily due to ignorance, Heaven will not fail to reward pure intentions.

 

Ok, but I wouldn't see such things as side paths. Self indulgence is self indulgence, but you

are probably right that there are varying degrees to such things. Lao Tzu seemed to be of the

view (based on my understanding of his writing) that there are immutable laws in this universe that we are

all subject to. All actions have their consequence. Actions involving self indulgence, greed, and causing

harm to others will not bring good consequences, but virtuous and selfless actions bring good consequences and are an integral part of cultivation of the way. Again, that's just my personal interpretation of

what is written in the Tao Te Ching. As always, written words are often open to various interpretations.

 

It seems to me all forms of Taoism hold the Tao Te Ching as an important text, but maybe there

are/were branches of Taoism that give/gave less importance to it, I don't know. Anyway, I just thought

it was interesting that various practices and views that are often referred to as 'Taoism' seem to

be at odds, to varying degrees, with what is written in the Tao Te Ching. The Tao Te Ching is

part of the Taoist Canon (all variations of the Canon from what I can gather), but maybe some branches of

Taoism gave less importance to it than other branches of Taoism.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

[SmallFrameGrandUltimateFist]

It is not self indulgence to refine one's self. Reading too heavily into words confuses matters, in the east lao tzu was very famous but taoists there consider him to be overly well known and not really to be the center of study. Consider that if you do not build a strong body you have a poor foundation to work on the tao. If you do not secure a steady career you have no free time to work on the tao. Unless you wish to live as a homeless person and beg for food and money you will have to abide by societal constraints. One should not use the Tao as a way to justify laziness. Work hard, handle worldy affairs early on and gently cultivate along the way, once your responsibilities to your family and loved ones have been taken care of you can truly manifest the great way. It is said those who abandon their families in order to pursue the tao are not worth speaking of, they are selfish and vain, that is true self indulgence.

[Iskote]

It is not self indulgence to refine one's self. Reading too heavily into words confuses matters, in the east lao tzu was very famous but taoists there consider him to be overly well known and not really to be the center of study. Consider that if you do not build a strong body you have a poor foundation to work on the tao. If you do not secure a steady career you have no free time to work on the tao. Unless you wish to live as a homeless person and beg for food and money you will have to abide by societal constraints. One should not use the Tao as a way to justify laziness. Work hard, handle worldy affairs early on and gently cultivate along the way, once your responsibilities to your family and loved ones have been taken care of you can truly manifest the great way. It is said those who abandon their families in order to pursue the tao are not worth speaking of, they are selfish and vain, that is true self indulgence.

 

Ok, but I wasn't at all referring to practical actions people may do to improve themselves, or improve

their skills used in their livelihood and the like. I was specifically talking about actions

that are mostly self indulgent or which are harmful to oneself or to others. For example, one might practice

lightness qigong and eventually develop the skill to jump up to the roof of their house in one bound. This can

be a useful skill to have for self defense, or for otherwise getting out of dangerous situations, or for negotiating

very rough terrain, etc. So, depending on one's living circumstances, this might be a practical skill to work on.

On the other hand, if one is spending large amounts of time trying to learn such a skill with the main intent

to impress people and gain fame and fortune, then that to me is just self indulgence. As I said before, we

do have to be practical and live our lives, but when what we are doing starts moving more into the realm or

self indulgence or excess, it would seem to me to be at odds with what is written in the Tao Te Ching.

 

Reading too heavily into words confuses matters, in the east lao tzu was very famous but taoists there consider him to be overly well known and not really to be the center of study.

 

Which Taoists in the East do not consider the Tao Te Ching an important work? I have not known

a lot of Taoists (those that are official members of a Taoist sect), but I have personally never come across

any that have said that or wrote that. Perhaps the people you are referring to are not really formal Taoists,

but just lay people who refer to themselves as Taoists and who take that view? Really the whole concept

of Taoism as being a single coherent system seems to me to be the source for a lot of confusion, as

I mentioned previously. There are no doubt lay people who may refer to themselves as Taoists

and who are not official members of any accepted branch of Taoism. That further adds to the confusion.

There are all kinds of practices these days which are using the label of Taoism, but the roots of many

of these practices may not really be related to any form of Taoism at all, or are only just loosely related.

 

Using the term Taoism can be a popular selling point these days as well, so the term seems to be

getting even more abused these days for that reason as well. If the Tao Te Ching is an important text

in most accepted forms of Taoism (which I am not certain it is in every case, but it does seem to be for

the most part), then it would seem to make sense to use it as a guide for helping sort through the

various practices that are being presented as Taoism these days. Again, just my point of view.

Just offered it up for consideration...

 

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

Edited July 5, 2009 by Iskote

[Martial Development]

To paraphrase a fellow martial arts fan,

Lao Tzu is the first word on Taoism, not the last word.

 

Though technically, he is not the first word either.

[WhiteTiger]

I don't think Lao Tzu wrote about how to have better orgasms, or how to increase sexual prowess,

or how to jump up to the roof of your house in one bound, or how to be the best in martial arts,

or how to become famous, or how to develop super powers, or how to become rich. It seems to me

he did write about freeing the self from such attachments, cultivating virtue, and gave hints about

cultivation, and described sign posts of what may be experienced in cultivating the 'way'.

 

I was just at a small basic Dharma lecture about a understanding of Nirvana, a understanding of Enlightenment, and I brought up where does going back in time before one is born. It came to me that Nirvana nor Enlightenment (Through that talk) does neither of the two unfortunately.

 

Quanzhen speaks of the composition of Buddhism, Confucian AND Taoism practices. Many Taoists neglect Buddhist and even Confucian practices. It is because of this that they want, desire, attached, or enjoy the pleasure of having such abilities, having fame, being rich, and so forth. Similar to how Ch'an Buddhist often times neglect Confucian and Taoist teachings.

[Iskote]

To paraphrase a fellow martial arts fan,

Lao Tzu is the first word on Taoism, not the last word.

 

Though technically, he is not the first word either.

 

Roger that. It is not even certain that Lao Tzu was an actual person I think, and that

the Tao Te Ching may have been derived from teachings of more than one person,

but it was a very long time ago so who knows? At any rate, I think there is no doubt that the

Tao Te Ching had a strong influence on the development of Taoism.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

 

 

 

I was just at a small basic Dharma lecture about a understanding of Nirvana, a understanding of Enlightenment, and I brought up where does going back in time before one is born. It came to me that Nirvana nor Enlightenment (Through that talk) does neither of the two unfortunately.

 

Quanzhen speaks of the composition of Buddhism, Confucian AND Taoism practices. Many Taoists neglect Buddhist and even Confucian practices. It is because of this that they want, desire, attached, or enjoy the pleasure of having such abilities, having fame, being rich, and so forth. Similar to how Ch'an Buddhist often times neglect Confucian and Taoist teachings.

 

OK, yes, good point. Some later forms of Taoism were definitely influenced by Buddhism and Confucianism.

However, the Tao Te Ching does seem to make it clear that seeking fame and fortune and the like

are not beneficial in cultivating the way. I can see how later forms of Taoism that were influenced by

Buddhism and Confucianism might possibly give less importance to some of the Taoist works, but I

haven't ever come across anything specifc in that regard.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

[WhiteTiger]

OK, yes, good point. Some later forms of Taoism were definitely influenced by Buddhism and Confucianism.

However, the Tao Te Ching does seem to make it clear that seeking fame and fortune and the like

are not beneficial in cultivating the way. I can see how later forms of Taoism that were influenced by

Buddhism and Confucianism might possibly give less importance to some of the Taoist works, but I

haven't ever come across anything specifc in that regard.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

 

The same goes for practitioners of Buddhism neglecting principles of Taoism. Although I've seen much less of this it also goes for Confucianism.

[WhiteTiger]

The same goes for practitioners of Buddhism neglecting principles of Taoism. Although I've seen much less of this it also goes for Confucianism.

 

Well depending what type of Buddhism we are talking about... I have an extremely small understanding/experience with Ch'an Buddhism.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Well the Taoist Canon is composed of over 5000 scrolls. There are numerous sects and hidden schools most are probably not even aware of, and I'm sure they don't mind being called Taoist. But like Creation said, "Taoist" practices were often adopted by people of various backgrounds and for their benefit. Yup, a lot of stories of sages often advising laymen and even emperors.

 

I don't really see a problem with Taoism or the practices themselves when people decide to abuse them (Lol, this kind of feels like a debate on gun control.... , but not as fatal ). If people do the sexual practices or martial arts and as a result it boosts their confidence, I think it's perfectly fine. Pehaps one should even encourage these things to people who are generally uninterested in stuff like Taoism and virtue.

 

The problems arise when a person mistakenly thinks that these complementary practices are actually the main Path towards cultivating the Tao. It's like a Tibetan Buddhist monk who just does Tummo breathing and doesn't abide by the scriptures. Maybe the technique itself can carry you towards enlightenment. I honestly don't know. . I highly doubt it, because as you said, the true Path is supposed to be virtuous.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Stigweard]

"The teaching of Tao originated in prehistoric times. For many generations people searched out methods by which to develop themselves. These methods are numerous and some have even been formalized as different schools which emphasize one or two things and make other aspects secondary to one's personal cultivation. Here I would like to give you some idea of the many effective methods which are practiced among achieved ones.

 

~ Nei Tan, Internal Medicine, which can support a person's spiritual future through refinement of the physical, mental and spiritual essence,

~ Tai Shi, Internal Breathing, which is higher than external breathing, although both are usually practiced together,

~ Tao Yin, Energy Channelling, for purposes of health and spiritual benefit,

~ Chun Shih, Visualization or concentration,

~ Fu Erh, External Nutrition, using natural herbs and other things,

~ Shing Jeau, Walking, for gathering and refining energy,

~ Fuh Chi, Internal Energy Maintenance,

~ Bei Gu, to stop eating food completely (especially helpful to those who are cultivating spiritually so that they can stop looking for and preparing food for themselves - eventually they combine their life with the environment),

~ Fu Chi, Intaking Natural Energy through breathing and swallowing, which should be practiced with Bei Gu,

~ Fang Jung, Sexual Cultivation,

~ Fu Jyeo, Secret Talismanic Characters, Words and also Invocations,

~ Jing Tan, Golden Elixir,

~ Shr Jeah, Method of Exuviation into a New Life."

 

p3, Ni Hua Ching, "Workbook for Spiritual Development of All People", Seven Star Communication, CA, 2005

[WhiteTiger]

Well the Taoist Canon is composed of over 5000 scrolls. There are numerous sects and hidden schools most are probably not even aware of, and I'm sure they don't mind being called Taoist. But like Creation said, "Taoist" practices were often adopted by people of various backgrounds and for their benefit. Yup, a lot of stories of sages often advising laymen and even emperors.

 

I don't really see a problem with Taoism or the practices themselves when people decide to abuse them (Lol, this kind of feels like a debate on gun control.... , but not as fatal ). If people do the sexual practices or martial arts and as a result it boosts their confidence, I think it's perfectly fine. Pehaps one should even encourage these things to people who are generally uninterested in stuff like Taoism and virtue.

 

The problems arise when a person mistakenly thinks that these complementary practices are actually the main Path towards cultivating the Tao. It's like a Tibetan Buddhist monk who just does Tummo breathing and doesn't abide by the scriptures. Maybe the technique itself can carry you towards enlightenment. I honestly don't know. . I highly doubt it, because as you said, the true Path is supposed to be virtuous.

 

I'm not sure if you are directly or indirectly calling me not willing to be virtuous. But for the people whom have spent time and watched the way I have reacted. I'm sure they could shed some greater insight.

 

I think there is a big difference between being able to be virtuous well and not being able to do it well. Honestly why attempt to do it when it only creates bigger karmic debt? Well because my intention isn't to create any karmic debt.

 

One can try their darnest to be virtuous as I try sadly I do it poorly. The intention is to be virtuous though and that's what I'm attempting to do by posting and answering or giving opinions or new perspectives on matters.

 

I sincerely apologize for digressing with the opinions and virtuous help on the matter I presented. That was DEFINATELY not my intention.

 

Thanks Stig for putting us back on track.

 

"The teaching of Tao originated in prehistoric times. For many generations people searched out methods by which to develop themselves. These methods are numerous and some have even been formalized as different schools which emphasize one or two things and make other aspects secondary to one's personal cultivation. Here I would like to give you some idea of the many effective methods which are practiced among achieved ones.

 

~ Nei Tan, Internal Medicine, which can support a person's spiritual future through refinement of the physical, mental and spiritual essence,

~ Tai Shi, Internal Breathing, which is higher than external breathing, although both are usually practiced together,

~ Tao Yin, Energy Channelling, for purposes of health and spiritual benefit,

~ Chun Shih, Visualization or concentration,

~ Fu Erh, External Nutrition, using natural herbs and other things,

~ Shing Jeau, Walking, for gathering and refining energy,

~ Fuh Chi, Internal Energy Maintenance,

~ Bei Gu, to stop eating food completely (especially helpful to those who are cultivating spiritually so that they can stop looking for and preparing food for themselves - eventually they combine their life with the environment),

~ Fu Chi, Intaking Natural Energy through breathing and swallowing, which should be practiced with Bei Gu,

~ Fang Jung, Sexual Cultivation,

~ Fu Jyeo, Secret Talismanic Characters, Words and also Invocations,

~ Jing Tan, Golden Elixir,

~ Shr Jeah, Method of Exuviation into a New Life."

 

p3, Ni Hua Ching, "Workbook for Spiritual Development of All People", Seven Star Communication, CA, 2005

 

I humbly share my on insight on the matters.

For spiritual practices I personally choose Nei Tan. (also called Neidan)

Tai Shi, Internal Breathing, is merely a tool for taking you further into the practices of Nei Tan. Eventually one should eliminate the external breathing done with the internal breathing, if ones refinement can be done properly. This means abiding by nature (without disruption) which is called wu-wei according to Taoist outlook on the subject. This means being ethical and conforming to proper social ways of acting which can be super imposed according to a Confucian outlook This means in a Buddhist outlook following the 8 fold noble path which includes Right view, Right intention, Right speech, Right action, Right livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness, Right concentration

 

Peace, love and sincerely,

wt

 

P.S. I really hope many can take good from this post.

Edited July 6, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[11:33]

I thought the idea of Taoism, as said in the Tao Te Ching, is that Te arises from the Tao naturally. That Te cannot be forced.

[Iskote]

...

The problems arise when a person mistakenly thinks that these complementary practices are actually the main Path towards cultivating the Tao. It's like a Tibetan Buddhist monk who just does Tummo breathing and doesn't abide by the scriptures. Maybe the technique itself can carry you towards enlightenment. I honestly don't know. . I highly doubt it, because as you said, the true Path is supposed to be virtuous.

 

To clarify my position, I am not passing judgement on any of the many practices out there that are

referred to as Taoist, I just think it is worth contrasting what is in the Tao Te Ching and possibly some of

the other early classics, and the many practices that are out there and which are labelled Taoist practices.

I emphasize again that what has been come to be known as 'Taoism' is actually comprised of many different traditions and practices, and that just because these many traditions and practices are all referred to as Taoism, the various practices may not necessarily all be in line with the 'way' that Lao Tzu and other sages were speaking of. My view is that one should use their judgement in these things. Maybe that is obvious to people who are more familiar with the history of Taoism , but based on some of the posts

I see here from time to time, many people do seem to think that Taoism is some fairly clear cut,

well defined, homogenous system. Such is not the case at all.

 

The Tao Te Ching had a strong influence during the formation of formalized Taoism, and as best as I have been able to determine, Lao Tzu was revered by many, if not most, Taoists as either a great Sage or even a Deity. He was often referred to as the 'Exalted One' by many Taoists, from what I have read.

Anyway, it is not unusal for people of various religions to tend to pick and choose portions of scriptures,

and ignore other portions, or 'interpret' (read distort ) written passages in a way that is suitable to their

personal leanings and purposes. This only reinforces my point that people should keep such things in mind when looking into the various practices that are are referred to as 'Taoist' practices.

 

Best Wishes...

Edited July 6, 2009 by Iskote

[Iskote]

I thought the idea of Taoism, as said in the Tao Te Ching, is that Te arises from the Tao naturally. That Te cannot be forced.

 

Like many esoteric writings, the words in the Tao Te Ching can be interpreted and taken in different ways.

It is true that virtuosness can't be forced, but that doesn't mean that one can't work on

cultivating virtuosness. The Tao Te Ching can be read as a description of what it is like to be a sage,

it can also be read as a guideline on how to cultivate the way of the sage. It also can be read as a practical

philosophical guide as well. Personally I thnk it contains all of these aspects. The philosophical and

other guidelines described in the Tao Te Ching can be used as a guideline for cultivating virtue. By cultivating virtue, one begins to cultivate the way. That's my personal take on it anyway.

 

Best wishes...

[WhiteTiger]

Like many esoteric writings, the words in the Tao Te Ching can be interpreted and taken in different ways.

It is true that virtuosness can't be forced, but that doesn't mean that one can't work on

cultivating virtuosness. The Tao Te Ching can be read as a description of what it is like to be a sage,

it can also be read as a guideline on how to cultivate the way of the sage. It also can be read as a practical

philosophical guide as well. Personally I thnk it contains all of these aspects. The philosophical and

other guidelines described in the Tao Te Ching can be used as a guideline for cultivating virtue. By cultivating virtue, one begins to cultivate the way. That's my personal take on it anyway.

 

Best wishes...

 

Wonderfully said.

 

I would agree. Thanks for taking the time to write this.

 

Peace,

wt