Dharma and the fetters that bind us.

[Iskote]

One thing that spiritual practitioners tend to forget is this:

1. Belief in an individual self

2. Doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (Dharma)

3. Attachment to rites and rituals

4. Sensual desire

5. Hatred

6. Lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth

7. Lust for immaterial existence

8. Pride in self, conceit, arrogance

9. Restlessness, distraction

10. Ignorance

Also called the ten fetters.

 

There are different levels of Buddhist enlightenment according how far you conquered them:

1. Stream-enterers or Sotappana: Those who have destroyed the first three fetters won't be reborn into any of the undesirable rebirths: animal, ghost or hell being. At most they will have to be reborn only seven more times (or possibly less) before attaining Nirvana.

2. Once-Returners or Sakadagami: Those who have destroyed the first three fetters and have lessened the fetters of sensual desire and hatred will attain Nirvana after being born once more in the world.

3. Non-Returners or Anagami: Those who have destroyed the five lower fetters, which bind beings to the world of the senses. Non-returners will never again return to the human world and after they die, they will be born in one of the higher astral planes, there to attain Nirvana. Attaining this state is portrayed in the early texts as the ideal goal for laity.

4. Arahants: Fully enlightened human beings who have conquered all fetters, having fully abandoned Samsara. The will attain Nirvana after death (Parinirvana). Attaining this state is portrayed in the early texts as the ideal goal for monastics (but it is not necessarily so).

...

A lot of pointless yabba yabba yabba, or does it all serve a purpose? (Just kidding DC, very interesting! )

Are these from the direct teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Are the transmitted teachings of the Buddha what is meant by the Dharma in the Buddhist sense?

What exactly is Dharma anyway?

 

I wonder, if all is as illusion then why would the Buddha, Lao Tzu, and other notables bother

pointing their finger towards the moon and say "it is beneficial to heed my words. What I am saying

hints at something that is worth paying attention to..."?

Is Dharma an illusory pattern laid upon illusion that has been skillfully designed so as to help people

eradicate or see through the very stuff that Dharma is itself made of, so to speak?

Why did notables bother presenting their words at all?

Why not simply just say, sit and relax and meditate and all will become clearer?

Could it be because telling people to just sit and meditate for many years is for the most part just

a waste of time? Many people would just not see the point or practicality. Many have mouths to feed,

clothe, and shelter, etc. Maybe something more practical is really needed that works at many different

levels to have any chance of reaching people of all different situations at all?

Am I just rambling pointlessly and adding to the overall yabba yabba yabba noise quotient?

To summarize, I guess what I am rambling on about is, were the Buddha and Lao Tzu also just rambling and adding markedly to the overall yabba yabba yabba noise quotient, or could there have been a method, or, dare I say, a purpose to their rambling?

Just some thoughts, not really expecting answers to all these questions at all, but please feel free to

think back at me if you like...

 

Peaceful thoughts and best wishes from Iskote...

Edited July 11, 2009 by Iskote

[Gerard]

Edited July 11, 2009 by durkhrod chogori

[Iskote]

I'll provide you a hint. Do your homework for the rest.

 

Hi dc! It's quite alright.

Perhaps I have done enough homework.

Cookie cutters can have rather limited use.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Sometimes things are not always as they might seem.

Our expectations and fixations and imaginings may mislead us and we may be the last to ever suspect it...

 

Best wishes and thoughts from Iskote...

[Gerard]

Our expectations and fixations and imaginings may mislead us and we may be the last to ever suspect it...

 

Yes but what Daniel writes about (which really is Buddha's model using Western approach) is based on a system resulting from thousands of hours of Vipassana practice and karmic evolution. Nothing beats the old model of "sweat and tears." Your ability to put in the "hard yards" says as much about your personality as it does your likelihood of fruition. And let me tell you something, in this business it is much easier to read things than actually doing them but unfortunately knowing doesn't make you an enlightened being.

 

Start doing that yourself and you'll soon find out that the dukkha nanas and vipassana jhanas are not mere imaginings; they are a natural part of the process towards arahantship.

 

This is the starting point of our journey:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...i/wheel370.html

 

And this would be our goal once we put that into practice:

 

http://www.mahamakuta.inet.co.th/english/b-way(11).html

 

Good luck.

Edited July 11, 2009 by durkhrod chogori

[Iskote]

Start doing that yourself and you'll soon find out that the dukkha nanas and vipassana jhanas are not mere imaginings; they are a natural part of the process towards arahantship.

Good luck.

Hi dc. I am somewhat surprised that you have interpreted my words in this way. I was niether

downplaying the importance of practice or dhyana, or the importance of Dharma. I was also not speaking

about knowledge in any way. When I spoke of expectations, fixations, and imaginings, I was speaking of how we may be blind to many of the fetters that bind us without ever suspecting it, although we may imagine we have a handle on it and believe we know just where we stand. I personally thnk that is at least one possible reason we have the Dharma, although how we view and understand the Dharma likely will change over time as our views and understanding change. That's why I am curious how others view such things. It seems to me that by comparing and contrasting views, one sometimes gains new insights, or comes to realize how we have been limiting ourselves without realizing it, even if it is just in an very small way. Practice is another matter

which I actually happen to think is very valuable. I obviously have to work on my communication skills.

Thanks for the links.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

[findley]

I'll provide you a hint. Do your homework for the rest.

....

 

This will answer your question. If not you may need another 100 lives, who knows.

...

-----

 

God, you are so full of shit. Responding to the fact that such nonsense is posted on a Taoist forum, I'll give youa hint! in fact, I'll spell it out for you:

 

D-O-G-M-A

 

 

-With each one of those 'affirmations' you render Tao asunder with folly implications.

 

You suck my ass buddhist!

 

"Also called the ten fetters."

 

yeah, I bet! asshole !

[Gerard]

Hi dc. I am somewhat surprised that you have interpreted my words in this way. I was niether

downplaying the importance of practice or dhyana, or the importance of Dharma. I was also not speaking

about knowledge in any way. When I spoke of expectations, fixations, and imaginings, I was speaking of how we may be blind to many of the fetters that bind us without ever suspecting it, although we may imagine we have a handle on it and believe we know just where we stand. I personally thnk that is at least one possible reason we have the Dharma, although how we view and understand the Dharma likely will change over time as our views and understanding change. That's why I am curious how others view such things. It seems to me that by comparing and contrasting views, one sometimes gains new insights, or comes to realize how we have been limiting ourselves without realizing it, even if it is just in an very small way. Practice is another matter

which I actually happen to think is very valuable. I obviously have to work on my communication skills.

Thanks for the links.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

 

No problem. Written communication is not perfect, as you know.

 

Yes the 10 fetters blind us big time as well as the belief that we reached enlightenment when we haven't That is why attaining Buddhist enlightenment is so difficult.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Edited: typo.

Edited July 12, 2009 by durkhrod chogori

[findley]

the subtlety of your remark, supplemented with a 'wink', does not 'blind' me from the implications of your words, buddhist.

 

'buddhist enlightenment' ... ...please... --and what are your implications, there?

 

typical lubby-dubby buddhist nonsense. if you're going to remark in my direction, have the balls to do it directly. subverting aggressive energy is not overcoming it.

 

 

blind.... please.... you're blind.... you're still yearning to some sort of superiority, through your subtlety. (do you think, perhaps, that it is wisdom? mayhaps it is, if you're surrounded by fools...)

 

I've got you, Buddhist. As long as you cling to your traditions, to your bullshit religion, you will smell like shit to me-- and you will never succeed me in either wisdom, or spiritual progress.

[dragonfire]

The darma teaches you a way out of rebirth in the lower realms - samsara. this is buddha's teaching.

he teaches the 4 noble truths.

 

Keep in mind, we are all buddhas. Even lucifer and his hunchman will become buddhas. The normal

process or what god wants is for you to experience life according to the laws of creation which is

based on love/light. Once you have experienced life in the fullest in our worlds, there is no need to experience anymore- This is when you become a buddha or walk in the stream. This normal process can take

many eons of rebirth. Remember one eon is essentially billions of years. This is why buddha said you must practice the darma if you want a wayout. Its not that you will never escape, it will just be a long long long long long time before you

do escape. And in that long long long long long time, you will re-experience suffering.

 

this is why monks will sacrifice everything in this lifetime to achieve or work towards buddhahood.

is it worth it? hell yes! most lay will never understand and know this. they think monks are stupid.

how wrong the stupider is.

[Gerard]

The darma teaches you a way out of rebirth in the lower realms - samsara. this is buddha's teaching.

he teaches the 4 noble truths.

 

Keep in mind, we are all buddhas....

 

Yes I totally agree with what you are saying; however the mental defilements (kilesas) as well as the ten fetters must be overcome in order to leave the illusion of Samsara. Once you attain that, which is not as easy as practitioners may think, you have attained arahantship.

 

If you cared to read what Daniel Ingram writes in his page, material that I agree with because I have attended Vipassana retreats (two so far and many more to come), then you'll realise that this road is not an easy one to follow:

 

That brings me to the question of audience. At any given time and place, there are only a handful at best that are ready to hear deep dharma and then convert that knowledge into liberating practice. This was true in the time of the Buddha and continues to be true today. Even among monks and nuns, you will not find many that are enlightened or even aspire to actually be enlightened in this lifetime (http://www.interactivebuddha.com/eleventharmy.shtml)

 

Do you have any idea of how difficult is to conquer the mind? Try and see, especially after a meditation session when you leave your room and get fully immersed in society.

 

Let me ask you something: Have you ever attended a full retreat? Not 3 days or so: 3 weeks + walk and sit over 8 hours a day and the last 3 locked up in your hut meditating a minimum of 16 hours a day.

[ZenStatic]

the subtlety of your remark, supplemented with a 'wink', does not 'blind' me from the implications of your words, buddhist.

 

'buddhist enlightenment' ... ...please... --and what are your implications, there?

 

typical lubby-dubby buddhist nonsense. if you're going to remark in my direction, have the balls to do it directly. subverting aggressive energy is not overcoming it.

blind.... please.... you're blind.... you're still yearning to some sort of superiority, through your subtlety. (do you think, perhaps, that it is wisdom? mayhaps it is, if you're surrounded by fools...)

 

I've got you, Buddhist. As long as you cling to your traditions, to your bullshit religion, you will smell like shit to me-- and you will never succeed me in either wisdom, or spiritual progress.

 

 

Wow man, just what is your issue? Such unbridled hatred; do you think that it in any way helps? If this is the way you respond to someone posting to someone else, then you have already been passed in wisdom by most on this board.

 

In case you missed it, read the description of this forum on the front page. You will find that the most common combined elements on this board will be Buddhism and Taoism, because they have gone somewhat hand in hand in China for hundreds of years. But if you get this worked up by someone speaking on a Buddhist topic, you may want to find a new place to go, because its going to be a constant here.

[findley]

FUCK YOU

[sean]

findley, come on man. let's keep it civil and avoid personal attacks.

 

Thanks,

Sean

[dragonfire]

findley, come on man. let's keep it civil and avoid personal attacks.

 

Thanks,

Sean

 

 

I have to agree personal attacks are no good. Not the way. Chill chill dude.

 

I have never attended a long retreat. I am only practising right

now, but a retreat is definetely necessary. Actually I've been

planning my retreat in my head already for the last year, wondering

where to go, what to eat, how to surivive, etc...

 

Even the great masters have to eat. You can't live on energy alone.

 

However, i think a solitude retreat is probably out of the question for

me, since i'm such a modern man that can not live without a shower

everyday. I missed two days and my crotch starts itching. I'll

probably be scratching my crotch and develop somekind of infection.

Not so mention my athletes foot.

 

But who knows. i may have no choice.

[Sunya]

findley forgot his PMS meds this morning

[Iskote]

The darma teaches you a way out of rebirth in the lower realms - samsara. this is buddha's teaching.

he teaches the 4 noble truths.

 

Keep in mind, we are all buddhas. Even lucifer and his hunchman will become buddhas. The normal

process or what god wants is for you to experience life according to the laws of creation which is

based on love/light. Once you have experienced life in the fullest in our worlds, there is no need to experience anymore- This is when you become a buddha or walk in the stream. This normal process can take

many eons of rebirth. Remember one eon is essentially billions of years. This is why buddha said you must practice the darma if you want a wayout. Its not that you will never escape, it will just be a long long long long long time before you

do escape. And in that long long long long long time, you will re-experience suffering.

 

this is why monks will sacrifice everything in this lifetime to achieve or work towards buddhahood.

is it worth it? hell yes! most lay will never understand and know this. they think monks are stupid.

how wrong the stupider is.

Thanks for the comments dragonfire. I agree, the Buddha and others such as Lao Tzu probably took the

time and effort to present their teachings because they felt it was very important. IMO, they likely

wouldn't have wasted their time otherwise. Also, in my view, these teachings are presented in a way that are useful not only to monks and ascetics, but to the average person conducting a normal life, as well. That is

no small accomplishment.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

[Josh Young]

Perhaps more than anything Dharma is the reason why we should be humble.