Advice for Tai Chi needed.

[yabyum24]

Yeah, if you want to actually learn internal martial arts, you must stand at least an hour a day(around 40 minutes for health). Otherwise your just slow dancing, imo. I have never met anyone who has an ounce of skill that doesnt stand.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "standing" in the context you describe? It would suggest little or no movement. Is it a kind of meditation?

I really have such little knowledge and many have mentioned it on this thread. Please don't despair I would like to know, as I will be unable to find a teacher who does this, if I don't even know what it is.

 

Namaste

[Mal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang

[Old Man Contradiction]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "standing" in the context you describe? It would suggest little or no movement.

Namaste

 

the wiki page neglects the #1 factor of standing practice, which is to create muscular contradiction. Standing, to just "relax" is almost useless. If you stand in a "special" position waiting for your chi to grow and wishing that diligently practicing this will somehow make you a better martial artist, you will be disappointed.

 

Zhan Zhuang is all about creating coordinated and whole body force. You do this by fully engaging as much muscle in performing an action as you can, but mentally/physically creating a contradictory force. Your skeleton will not move (actually just a little at first), but your muscles will be very active.

 

This is what makes ZZ extremely active and beneficial health wise and martially.

[Baguakid]

the wiki page neglects the #1 factor of standing practice, which is to create muscular contradiction. Standing, to just "relax" is almost useless. If you stand in a "special" position waiting for your chi to grow and wishing that diligently practicing this will somehow make you a better martial artist, you will be disappointed.

 

 

This is absolutely incorrect.

 

There are many different variations of ZZ with theory to match. You should not speak in absolutes of the entire ZZ world based you your ZZ experience and knowledge which appears to be limited.

 

Wuji qigong, a form of ZZ, employs standing by the alignment of several points on the body (3 points on the same line) which does not have anything to do with muscles but skeletal and acupoint alignment between heaven and earth. Cai Songfang, one of the highest level qigong masters I've met did nothing but this exercise and has reached very high levels with it.

[obelison]

A friend and fellow taiji student teaches at a village community centre. He probably has a good mix of students, but many of them are little old ladies. They came along to his classes when he first started and kept coming back, not because of his tea and biscuits, but because he knows taijiquan and he knows how to teach it.

 

Little old ladies may not be such a reliable alarm signal.

 

I think Mal has the right idea though, you definitely want to be enjoying yourself. The best thing to do is just go along. You will know if you are in the right class, just like you knew 20 years ago. It may take you a few tries to find a good teacher, but stick with it and you might get lucky.

 

One final point. The kind of things that you want to learn do not come with fries - ie it takes a while before you get it.

[Old Man Contradiction]

This is absolutely incorrect.

 

 

You should not speak in absolutes of the entire ZZ world based you your ZZ experience and knowledge which appears to be limited.

 

In nature, shoulds and shouldn'ts don't exist.

 

I still believe in I-chuan's "stillness in movement, movement in stillness" way of ZZ. I believe it is the most well preserved form of combat and health oriented standing. I personally would rather gain the best of both worlds by doing the real muscular work while in correct alignment. And "Almost useless" was wrong of me.

 

If Cai Songfang empties his mind in Wuji, than that part of the equation deserves credit too. Another thing is that standing in a posture that puts your weight on the muscles(correct alignment), will eventually force you to learn how to breathe with your entire body. With optimal posture for acu-alignment, good breathing, and an emptied mind, you are walking a path not too unlike mindfulness practitioners, and probably with some martial benefits.

 

But, for ZZ for combat and spiritual growth, I still suggest I-Chuan.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Stigweard]

[Old Man Contradiction]

I thought about this today, and I realized the way I shared my beliefs, and the information I have was mislead by my ego. It was stupid.

 

Contradictory forces are unique to Yichuan and I think Hsing-I too. In taiji, some schools will have students in low horse stance for 2 hrs because they know that the students will eventually learn how to cope with the pain by breathing with the entire body, basically uniting musculature for whole body force. Even without contradictory force standing teaches the core of movement. I am just in love with the quality of movement created by contradictory force that I saw it as "correct". When in Northern Praying Mantis(a really sweet looking art by the way), it would be terribly wrong. I apologize for making sweeping generalizations and I think this was good for me and I hope that we have shown how much martial art schools vary.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[yabyum24]

Thanks for the debate guys. It's all way above my head but interesting to read nevertheless.

[Stigweard]

I thought about this today, and I realized the way I shared my beliefs, and the information I have was mislead by my ego. It was stupid.

 

Contradictory forces are unique to Yichuan and I think Hsing-I too. In taiji, some schools will have students in low horse stance for 2 hrs because they know that the students will eventually learn how to cope with the pain by breathing with the entire body, basically uniting musculature for whole body force. Even without contradictory force standing teaches the core of movement. I am just in love with the quality of movement created by contradictory force that I saw it as "correct". When in Northern Praying Mantis(a really sweet looking art by the way), it would be terribly wrong. I apologize for making sweeping generalizations and I think this was good for me and I hope that we have shown how much martial art schools vary.

Good for you sir ... BRAVO!

 

It takes a special sort of person to admit publicly you were wrong about something. Your virtue tally has just increased

 

By the way I must thank you for inspiring me to give more focus to my standing practice ... it had lapsed some while I was giving attention to other areas of my practice _/\_

[Old Man Contradiction]

Good for you sir ... BRAVO!

 

It takes a special sort of person to admit publicly you were wrong about something. Your virtue tally has just increased

 

By the way I must thank you for inspiring me to give more focus to my standing practice ... it had lapsed some while I was giving attention to other areas of my practice _/\_

 

I wish you long life full of fruitful practice. Take it easy Stigweard.

 

PS. To original poster, sorry for ego-posting, and good luck finding something that you enjoy

[Mal]

Good for you sir ... BRAVO!

 

It takes a special sort of person to admit publicly you were wrong about something. Your virtue tally has just increased

 

Inded but BTW Old Man Contradiction we dont often see appologies on TTB, it mush be against the rules or something so be careful you could get banned!!!

 

I continue not to do standing practices. My Sifu does not like static stances like mar bo for people my weight (110 kg) I went against his recomendations, as he does quite a good horse stance, got some corrections from him and practiced it for a few months and my knee got quite sore I asked him about it as mar bo is very much a fundamental technique in the old days (although not in Tong Long) and he said "Well Sifus use to teach with the stick too" (hitting students) & gave me that amused look I see quite often from him So I now practice the moving low stance he taught me to do instead.

 

Pole standing is again not something my teachers dwell on so I follow there recomendations.

 

Everyone is different. My Sifu teaches Tai Chi for health only and recommends we do our Yang long form 2x a day. Thats 40 min of Tai Chi form and thats what I do. He virtually never talks about energy outside of "feel the chi move, you should start to sweat and feel sticky on the skin".

 

I've been with him for 8 years and yesterday when doing our chi gongs for Tong Long he mentioned the two directions of energy in the body (i.e. orbits) 1st time he ever mentioned that. He is very traditional Chinese and does not like to waste class time talking about stuff he wants us to do it. I probably know 2x more book fu than he does, but I can only do 5% of it where as he can demonstrate everything he talks about.

[Li TaoRen]

Chen style is the oldest, and still a bit more martial. Yang style is the more popular, but has many variations. Most instructors will let you sit in or try a class for free. Talk to the instructor and students before joining, and you will get an idea if it is a good fit. some people teach from simply a health perspective, and some offer the martial component. The martial component is beneficial in learning the postures and form correctly, the bottom line is Taiji(ultimate) Quan(boxing) is first and foremost a (internal)martial art. Short forms are ok, but make sure the teacher has years of experience, and shares your philosophy to some extent. Also, is the teacher and students in good health? I went to a Taoist Taiji school once, and the instructor had to stop and remind himself what to do next, and the students had sore knees and ankles from improper postures. if one move is meant to be an arm grapple(lu) it shouldn't look like they are dancing with a watermelon. You can always change teachers, study as well.

I can reccomend one book, if you can find it... the Tao of Tai-Chi Chuan by Jou, Tsung Hwa. Do not even try to learn a form from books, but use them to refine and augment your practice.(

I'm interested in taking up Tai Chi for health and the ability to direct energy around the body - which I witnessed at first hand many years ago. There are many styles out there. Does anyone here have any experience?

 

I'm not looking for just those slow exercises you see pensioner's doing, nor for a hard Kung Fu system. More something in between.

 

Which style would most match this?

 

Thanks

[Baguakid]

Old Man Contradiction, Thank you for your insights and input on Yichuan... It's an art I've admired from a distance as it's not easy to find teachers in the state I'm in (Florida) or where I lived in China (Shanghai). You've obviously learned from knowledgeable people and spent considerable time in thought and research about the art.

 

To start Standing practice the student should know what they are training for. Wuji as taught by Cai Songfang (with hands at the sides), is a practice for building qi, tonifying kidneys and opening channels. This is especially useful in older or weak/depleted students as it builds from within. This also is a perfect marriage with Taiji. Wuji to build Qi, Taiji to move Qi.

 

Of course, I'm speaking in terms of health. Martial artists will have a different perspective and training theory/method.

 

It's very important to know what you want to achieve from your training when you start looking for a teacher.