Is "Hell" a part of Taoism?

[Stigweard]

A new friend of mine said that the reason why he like Taoism was because of "how they describe hell runs, how you will be punished accordingly afterlife for the sins you did before death".

 

 

I replied by saying, "Nowhere in the Taoist ontology have I ever came across the notion of being "punished accordingly afterlife for the sins you did before death". May I ask where you have come across such teachings in traditional Taoism?"

 

He linked me through to the Wiki page on Diyu, or earthly prison.

 

My take on it is that it is merely traditional Chinese folk religion stuff and not really part of the Taoist body. But I could be wrong and am happy to be if proven so.

 

What do you think?

[Spirit Ape]

yes, theres an underworld!

[Stigweard]

yes, theres an underworld!

 

I wasn't asking necessarily for opinions of whether there is or is not an 'underworld', more to the point whether the 'hell realms' described in the Wiki entry were a part of Taoism or just Chinese folk religion.

 

Cheers for you comment though.

 

[mouse]

 

I wasn't asking necessarily for opinions of whether there is or is not an 'underworld', more to the point whether the 'hell realms' described in the Wiki entry were a part of Taoism or just Chinese folk religion.

 

Cheers for you comment though.

 

 

Not trying to stir the pot here but:

 

Why should it matter if a Taoist or a Buddhist or a Christian or "chinese folk" etc described a particular plane of existence? So long as one has not the ability to access these realms, it doesn't matter who says what because it will always just be words.

 

mouse

[Stigweard]

Not trying to stir the pot here but:

 

Why should it matter if a Taoist or a Buddhist or a Christian or "chinese folk" etc described a particular plane of existence? So long as one has not the ability to access these realms, it doesn't matter who says what because it will always just be words.

 

mouse

I appreciate your comments Mouse.

 

My line of inquiry is to ask other folks their learned perspective of whether they have encountered the teachings of Diyu hell realms as per the Wiki article in their Taoist studies because, quite simply I have not. It matters to me because I like to give people accurate information and previously if someone was to ask me, "Do Taoists believe in hell?" I would have answered, "No". So, being presented with information that I previously did not have, I would like to understand if, where, and how it 'fits' within Taoist ontology.

 

For the moment I am quite content to allow such a notion to fall within the framework of Chinese folk religion because it seems so 'foreign' to the core works of Laozi, Chuangzi etc. But if someone was to provide some conclusive, and constructive evidence to prove that the hell realms are a central tenet of the Taoist tradition then I am quite happy to review my beliefs.

 

[Marblehead]

To the best of my understanding there is nothing in Lao Tzu's or Chuang Tzu's writtings that could be understood as suggesting that there is an (individual) afterlife. And there is nothing to suggest a place called 'hell'.

 

It is only after the formation of the Taoist religion that these concepts were introduced. And yes, I believe that much of it was built upon ancient Chinese folklore.

 

Be well!

Edited July 12, 2009 by Marblehead

[taiji_phoenix]

In taoism as a "religion" their is a hell. When I was in china I went to the Dongyue temple in beijing. Very interesting place. It is dedicated to the god of mount taishan. The temple has all these statues that represent the various departments of Hell. From what I remember, the differnt departments are for various wrong doings or crimes commited while you were alive.

Looking at the wiki site, the 18 layers or departments,I would say it corresponds to what I saw at the temple.

 

Also in the Fengdao Kejie or the 'daoist monastic manual' their is a chapter on retribution of sins where it describes the 18 realms of darkness. Here is a link to the book. I think you can read the whole thing online. https://www.questia-online-library.com/read...t%20Terminology

 

Here are some of my pictures from the Dongyue temple. Can't figure out how to post the pics here. Here is my flicr link. http://www.flickr.com/photos/taijiphoenix

 

 

Taiji phoenix

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Who are the Taoists that you are talking about?

 

The school of Taoism (Taojia) was first recognized in writing by Sima Qian, the Grand Historian, during the Western Han Dynasty. When Lao Tsu, Chuang Tsu, Leih Tsu, ect. were writing (300-400 BC), there were no formal groups of people that called themselves Taoists. By the time that people started referring to themselves as Taoists (~80 BC), the school/religion encompassed shamanistic folk beliefs, Yin-yang school ideas, Penglai hygiene, health and longevity techniques, and Fengshi external alchemy. This Han dynasty amalgamation looked to Lao Tsu and Co. as their forefathers and grounded their beliefs in that naturalistic Warring States period philosophy.

 

In 142 AD, Zhang Daoling founded Way of the Celestial Masters, which developed into its own theocratic country inside of China. They believed that if your chi was not perfectly balanced at death, you would be be transported to an earthly prison to face eternal torment.

 

The Taoist hell became a much more popular and pervasive concept after Buddhism fully entered China and Taoist monasteries and temples began to appear throughout the country to compete. By the Six Dynasties period (265-420 AD) there was a very sophisticated afterlife cosmology and hierarchy of deities in place, involving heaven and hell, the Jade Emperor, Lao Tsu as an omnipresent god, Yama (imported from India) casting judgment over the dead, and immortality peaches ripe for the stealing.

 

All of these elements survive to today, meaning that for the vast majority of the time that people were calling themselves Taoists, there was an idea of Hell in place.

 

 

To your original point, if you are just talking about what a few thematically linked philosophers during the Warring States period believed... that is a much harder question. Though, through books like the Nei Yeh and the Songs of the South, we can tell that these early philosophers were mystics and their ideas and practices were probably influenced in some ways by shamanism and divination (I Ching philosophy). Otherwise we cannot say much more about their beliefs until they developed into a wide spread movement. Maybe the Huinan Masters (~150 BC) is the earliest you can look. They were organized, practiced mysticism, sought the immortals and immortality, and took up Lao Tsu and Co. as there guiding philosophy. The Huinan Masters spoke at length about the Islands of the Immortals and other heavenly realms that they traveled to in vision quests/dreams/astral projections, but I do not think they ever directly spoke about Hell.

 

Keep in mind though, during that time period, Han Fei Tsu was also very heavily influenced by Lao Tsu and Co., and he went on to founded legalism.

 

 

 

In the end, the problem that you are running into is that you are trying to cleanly equate Taoism with the people who wrote their founding texts. This might be akin to trying to equate the many beliefs of Christianity to the philosophy and outlook of the early Semitic writers of the Torah. It is not to say that there is not a connection, it is just a complicated one.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[Iskote]

My take on it is that it is merely traditional Chinese folk religion stuff and not really part of the Taoist body. But I could be wrong and am happy to be if proven so.

What do you think?

Yes, I have also read of the Taoist concept of the underworld, or the yin realm. I believe it iis

part of the beliefs of main stream religious Taoism. For example, see this article:

http://eng.taoism.org.hk/daoist-beliefs/co...ony/pg2-2-3.htm

 

From what I have gathered, it is believed that ordinary people's spirits or souls (not sure

which is the correct term) all go to the yin realm when they die. There can be much suffering

in the yin realms just like is described in the concept of hell. It is only immortals or sages

who transcend to the immortal realms when they die. The beliefs in the underworld may have originated

in Chinese folk religions, but the beliefs do seem to be part of main stream religious Taoism.

I came across a reference that used these terms to describe the Taoist underworld or yin realms:

Ying Jian - 阴间 - The Realm of Yin

You Ming Shi Jie - 幽冥世界- The world of the spirits

Yin Cao Di Fu - 阴曹地府 - The Underworld in the Yin realm

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

From what I have gathered, it is believed that ordinary people's spirits or souls (not sure

which is the correct term) all go to the yin realm when they die. There can be much suffering

in the yin realms just like is described in the concept of hell. It is only immortals or sages

who transcend to the immortal realms when they die. The beliefs in the underworld may have originated

in Chinese folk religions, but the beliefs do seem to be part of main stream religious Taoism.

I came across a reference that used these terms to describe the Taoist underworld or yin realms:

Ying Jian - 阴间 - The Realm of Yin

You Ming Shi Jie - 幽冥世界- The world of the spirits

Yin Cao Di Fu - 阴曹地府 - The Underworld in the Yin realm

 

The idea at play here is that the body is composed of a variety of hun and po spirits (yin and yang). The po spirits represent your base, animalistic nature and will go to the yin realm when you die, while the hun will go to the yang realm of the ancestors in the heavens. All of these parts of you need chi to survive. When they run out of chi they are recycled and reincarnated. They can continue to feed off of chi by staying on earth and vampirizing chi off of humans (po spirit) or by being feed by their ancestors through sacrifices of burnt food and paper money (hun spirit). One of the goals of (at least) Tang Dynasty and later Taoism is to unite all of these spirits through alchemy, which causes spiritual immortality. The resulting whole spirit will not burn through its chi and can continue to cultivate itself in the afterlife.

 

In the popular (folk) Taoism, practed by average people (even today) these higher ideals are not really considered and people just try and avoid Hell and feed their ancestors and hope their children will feed them after death.

[Iskote]

In the end, the problem that you are running into is that you are trying to cleanly equate Taoism with the people who wrote their founding texts. This might be akin to trying to equate the many beliefs of Christianity to the philosophy and outlook of the early Semitic writers of the Torah. It is not to say that there is not a connection, it is just a complicated one.

I think it depends on which texts one is referring to. The Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu are included

in the various versions of the Taoist Canon, and although the Taoist Canon is a much looser and

fluid collection of texts than say the Bible, it is still very influential for most branches of Taoism,

from what I can gather, although different branches emphasize different sections of it. The Tao Te Ching

and Chuang Tzu might roughly equate to books in the bible.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Just to strengthen my point on how non-unified even early texts are, lets look at the Chuang Tzu.

 

The text that we call the Chuang Tzu (Zhunagzi) was written by many different authors. The Inner Chapters were probably all written by Master Chuang, but the rest of the book was written by people from all different schools. There are chapters written by Confucians, Naturalists, Legalists (!), Huinan Masters, Syncratists (wow, the last chapter is crazy), Yin Yang School people, and so forth. Read the Graham translation... it is enlightening. This book is a compilation of many texts from many Warring States schools and some of the chapters are outright and violently opposed in philosophy to others. Early "Taoism" did not have a clear unifying thread running through it.

[Iskote]

Just to strengthen my point on how non-unified even early texts are, lets look at the Chuang Tzu.

The text that we call the Chuang Tzu (Zhunagzi) was written by many different authors. The Inner Chapters were probably all written by Master Chuang, but the rest of the book was written by people from all different schools. There are chapters written by Confucians, Naturalists, Legalists (!), Huinan Masters, Syncratists (wow, the last chapter is crazy), Yin Yang School people, and so forth. Read the Graham translation... it is enlightening. This book is a compilation of many texts from many Warring States schools and some of the chapters are outright and violently opposed in philosophy to others. Early "Taoism" did not have a clear unifying thread running through it.

I don't think Taoism had a clear unifying thread through it for its whole history.

Nevertheless, the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tzu have probably been required or

recommended reading in most branches of Taoism, if not all. All of what has become to

be known of Taoism is filled with quite different or even contradictory practices and beliefs, but it

is all still lumped under the term of Taoism. Such is what Taoism is. It has many different aspects,

with different branches choosing and combining the different aspects in different ways, but all are part of what

is known as Taoism as a whole. It is what it is. No one ever said it all has to make sense.

 

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

Edited July 12, 2009 by Iskote

[Iskote]

For the moment I am quite content to allow such a notion to fall within the framework of Chinese folk religion because it seems so 'foreign' to the core works of Laozi, Chuangzi etc. But if someone was to provide some conclusive, and constructive evidence to prove that the hell realms are a central tenet of the Taoist tradition then I am quite happy to review my beliefs.

Further to this, to get a better understanding of how religious Taoism, A.K.A. Orthodox Taoism, is

practiced in the current day, it is worth reading the book 'Taoist Master Chuang', by Michael Saso.

It is mentioned in this book that the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu are still considered important

texts by the Orthodox Taoists, and also outlines which specific sections of the Chuang Tzu are used

for specific purposes in study and practice. In general, Orthodox Taoist priests act as intermediaries between the spiritual realms and ordinary people. They perform rituals, ceremonies, funeral rites, feng shui and fortune telling, do healings and provide talismans, perform magic, etc. to assist and help people in their lives. Taoist priests also work on their own cultivation with the goal of becoming one with tao and entering the immortal realms when they die. Some Taoist priests specialize in performing funerals and other services for those who have just died and for those who have already been dead for some time and who now exist in the yin realms.

 

So really, one cannot make a clear distinction between religious Taoism and Philiosophical Taoism,

or fully separate all early Taoist texts from later texts, etc. The different branches of Taoism

may give more emphasis to certain aspects of Taoism, and there may be quite contrasting views sometimes,

but there does certainly seem to be at least some degree of commonality between the different branches and

sects that causes it all to be referred to as Taoism. The beliefs in the immortal and yang and yin realms

are probably widely accepted amongst most Taoists, from what I can gather. One should probably

keep in mind though that Taoism was almost completely wiped out in China during the cultural

revolution, but some Taoists fled to Hong Kong and Taiwan during this period and carried on

their traditions there. Looking into the Taoist practices in these places and other places outside

of China may provide a broader picture of modern day Taoism

 

BTW, Taoists do not necessarily believe that souls suffer in the yin realm as punishment

for bad actions when they were alive, although many may view it that way, but it is viewed by at

least some Taoists that the suffering in the yin realm is due to souls' attachments and yearnings. One has to

dissolve these attachments by suffering in the yin realm before one can reincarnate back into the yang realm, or the physical world. I am not sure which view is the more predominant view though, or if there are

other Taoist views about this as well.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

Edited July 12, 2009 by Iskote

[thelerner]

He hasn't posted here in a while, but our once resident taoist Celestial Master Mak Ti Sin, was a great believer in hell. In his practice he knew it was real and felt fully developing the yin eye allowed a person to see hell and there ancestors suffering in it. His sect offered techniques to sooth their fate.

 

Here's one quote from a conversation I had with him:

 

QUOTE(Mak_Tin_Si @ Mar 9 2009, 09:39 PM)

 

Lets say you are now open to a chance to learn this "Yin-Eye" in Taoism, which will open up your 3rd eye with the Yin-path, you can only see yin stuff, so you can see ghosts, and your ancestors suffer in hell and also see things happening in hell, will you take the chance to open it? (it's free and it's like you can click a button and get it online, easy easy)

 

 

I assume the belief is wide spread among religious taoist and relief from hell is major source for donations.

 

 

Michael

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

I don't think Taoism had a clear unifying thread through it for its whole history. laugh.gif

Nevertheless, the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tzu have probably been required or

recommended reading in most branches of Taoism, if not all. All of what has become to

be known of Taoism is filled with quite different or even contradictory practices and beliefs, but it

is all still lumped under the term of Taoism. Such is what Taoism is. It has many different aspects,

with different branches choosing and combining the different aspects in different ways, but all are part of what

is known as Taoism as a whole. It is what it is. No one ever said it all has to make sense. wink.gif

 

Very well put, and I could not agree more. The Western trained philosopher in me always seems to want internal consistency, but the Taoist in me far prefers to revel in a Tao that cannot be spoken of, and which is thus always in flux and encompassing all the range of possibilities.

[Marblehead]

I can't find it right now but I have always liked the story about the Warrior and the Master regarding Heaven and Hell. Both reside within, or not. That is all.

 

Be well.

[thelerner]

Is this the Warrior and Master story you mean?

 

A samurai finds a Zen master sitting and staring at a pond and asks him "What is hell and am I heading there?"

 

The master looks up and says "How can an unkept ignorant man like yourself even be considered a samura?"

 

The soldier angrily draws his sword.

 

"That is hell" the master says.

 

The samurai lowers the sword and bows deeply.

[Marblehead]

Is this the Warrior and Master story you mean?

 

A samurai finds a Zen master sitting and staring at a pond and asks him "What is hell and am I heading there?"

 

The master looks up and says "How can an unkept ignorant man like yourself even be considered a samura?"

 

The soldier angrily draws his sword.

 

"That is hell" the master says.

 

The samurai lowers the sword and bows deeply.

 

Yes, that's the one but the original was Chinese and much more descriptive.

 

Thanks.

 

Be well!

[Wayfarer64]

It ain't Taoist - but it may well help you laugh at our foibles!-

 

The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid term. The answer was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, which is why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.

"Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?" Most of the students wrote elaborate proofs of their conclusions using Boyle's Law, (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Many, if not all, of these religions hold that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since few people belong to more than one religion, we can project that nearly all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added. This gives two possibilities: 1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. 2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Teresa Banyan during my Freshman year, "...that it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you!", and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then, #2 cannot be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and will not freeze.

The student received the only "A" given.

[Stigweard]

Thanks for all the feedback ... I truly appreciate having my knowledge of Taoism broadened some.

 

After reading your comments I responded to my friend:

 

With much respect to yourself, I have carefully considered your statements and have consulted closely with my colleagues. And I have to make an adjustment to my earlier comments about Taoism not having within its framework the concept of a Hell.

 

Instead I must say that Taoism as I have been taught and learned does not contain the concept of Hell. I must however acknowledge the fact that, in certain branches of orthodox, religious Taoism, such concepts are very much present.

 

I believe we have to accept the fact that Taoism as a vast multi-faceted diversity with many branches and influences. Thus it is hard sometimes to clearly designate what concepts are or are not Taoist.

 

The tradition of Taoism that I have learned and practice has come down from the Quanzhen School 全眞 (Complete Reality) and so I have more of a focus on personal cultivation, sublimation and studying the original works of Laozi, Chuangzi, etc and far less concern with 'evil spirits, demons, hell realms etc'.

 

[Yoda]

Fun thread!

 

The Graham translation sounds interesting.

 

My fav hell and yin dimension resource is the Journey to the West chapter 11: http://www.chine-informations.com/fichiers/jourwest.pdf

 

Where Tang Emperor Taizong is accused of going back on his word to the Dragon King and has to stand trial in Hell. A popular Chinese understanding compiled during the Ming Dynasty, this is a great tour. Plus other parts of the book give a popular understanding of the Celestial Dimension.

 

Also there's an account "Journey to the Underworld" by a fellow in the 1970s which is another popular Chinese understanding: http://www.white-sun.com/journeys_to_the_underworld.htm

 

One complicating factor is that Hell sometimes refers to the yin dimension underworld which is more like the Greek Hades... and not necessarily a place of torment. In my school, the "bad hell" is just part of the larger yin dimension.

 

No tour of Chinese Hell is complete without checking out the Hell Bank Notes for sale in the Asian grocery store: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_bank_note

 

 

 

-Yoda

 

 

PS re: what thelerner said about Mak Tin Si on the development of yin sight... it should be added that Mak Tin Si does not recommend developing the yin sight or otherwise forging too close a relationship with the yin dimension folks through other forms of mediumship as the Ng Yin Do Pai sect believes that doing so has detrimental effects in this life and make reincarnation more difficult to achieve in the next.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

A new friend of mine said that the reason why he like Taoism was because of "how they describe hell runs, how you will be punished accordingly afterlife for the sins you did before death".

 

 

I replied by saying, "Nowhere in the Taoist ontology have I ever came across the notion of being "punished accordingly afterlife for the sins you did before death". May I ask where you have come across such teachings in traditional Taoism?"

 

He linked me through to the Wiki page on Diyu, or earthly prison.

 

My take on it is that it is merely traditional Chinese folk religion stuff and not really part of the Taoist body. But I could be wrong and am happy to be if proven so.

 

What do you think?

 

The problem is in China Diyu is just considered the place everyone goes to when they die. It's not really the same concept as the western one, not in their minds anyway, and that wiki stuff looks pretty similar to an old Buddhist book I've got describing the hell regions, different places for different kinds of wrongs.

 

They also burn 'hell money' for their relatives to receive, weddings too....I dont mean they burn them, I mean they have ceremonies for people dead to marry them up in the after life, but they don't really consider it hell in the way we think of it. Some words really don't translate that well. Hell(or Diyu I should say)can just simply be a place you go to when you die and knock about a bit.

 

Those sections of hell really do look like a Buddhist construct. But ya gonna need a bona-fide Buddhist for that answer.......... I'm sure there's someone...somewhere here.......by chance ......

Edited October 9, 2009 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Pietro]

Thanks for all the feedback ... I truly appreciate having my knowledge of Taoism broadened some.

 

After reading your comments I responded to my friend:

 

I once asked my teacher if Journey to the west was a Taoist book.

I wanted to make sure I placed in the right place in the bookshelf at home.

He is an academic anthropologist and answered: it is a Chinese book.

 

I am afraid there is no such thing as Taoism, as a single undivided whole. It's hard for religions like Christianity to present a single face, when there are in fact multiple groups. And Easter comes at different times for different people. But for a bottom up religion-cultural movement-set of traditions like Taoism it is crazy to just ask the question. The assumptions of the questions are false. You would be better off asking if New Agers believe in channeling. Some do...

 

There are some group of Taoists for which...

There are other groups of Taoists for which...

while a third group of Taoist believes that...

 

So the answer is yes, no, both yeas and no, neither of the two, and the space in between.

[Yoda]

I am afraid there is no such thing as Taoism, as a single undivided whole. It's hard for religions like Christianity to present a single face, when there are in fact multiple groups. And Easter comes at different times for different people. But for a bottom up religion-cultural movement-set of traditions like Taoism it is crazy to just ask the question.

 

Nice!

 

there is no Taoism,

there is no non-Taoism,

Therefore Shariputra let's have lunch!