Is "Hell" a part of Taoism?

[Easy]

Nice!

 

there is no Taoism,

there is no non-Taoism,

Therefore Shariputra let's have lunch!

 

 

Equally Nice!

 

Remember in Wu's Journey to the West (written by a Taoist and based on Chinese folk tales) the T'ang Emperor had a nightmarish vision of souls suffering in hell and he could only redeem them by sending the Monk to fetch Buddhist scriptures. And Quan Yin sent the Taoist cultivated Handsome Monkey King along as his protector. A hell was the start of it all.

[goldisheavy]

A new friend of mine said that the reason why he like Taoism was because of "how they describe hell runs, how you will be punished accordingly afterlife for the sins you did before death".

 

 

I replied by saying, "Nowhere in the Taoist ontology have I ever came across the notion of being "punished accordingly afterlife for the sins you did before death". May I ask where you have come across such teachings in traditional Taoism?"

 

He linked me through to the Wiki page on Diyu, or earthly prison.

 

My take on it is that it is merely traditional Chinese folk religion stuff and not really part of the Taoist body. But I could be wrong and am happy to be if proven so.

 

What do you think?

 

I think this will depend on what you consider "Taoist". Part of the problem is that many people after Laozi, Zhuangzi and Liezi added their 2 cents into the Taoist cannon, and the quality of these additions is highly variable in my not so humble opinion. I would say some of the texts in the Taoist cannon are pure trash, but that's just me. Don't let my opinion hold anyone back.

 

I think this idea about hell comes from some treatise that's ascribed to Taoism called something like "About heavenly retribution" or some such. I forget exactly the name, but the name should be very similar in spirit to what I said. Some relatively minor Taoist wrote it, but some people treat it as something very important. I would argue it actually goes against some of the points that Zhuangzi made regarding good and bad fortune.

 

Anyway... since I am disgusted with that text, I won't even bother looking for it. I am sure if you want to, you can find it. I read it once and know not to bother with it anymore.

[Marblehead]

There is no heaven or hell in my belief system.

 

What you see is what you get.

 

Peace & Love!

[Zenshiite]

Diyu reminds me of the Islamic barzakh, which is the world of the grave that souls experience prior to the Resurrection, Day of Judgement and then either Paradise or Hellfire.

 

There's also a corny old Shaw Brothers movie called Heaven and Hell that shows some of the stuff that's traditionally said to go on in Diyu.

 

Also, check out this website Daoist Beliefs - Cosmogony - The Netherworld, they seem to draw from various sects of religious Taoism on that site.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Zenshiite

[Eternal_Student]

if you can imagine a state of mind where taking/devouring/stealing is all that occupies the will.

and then imagine a place where the motivation is to share/support/interact.

these places exist inside of us when alive, and become the whole of us after we pass into our natural state.

 

beauty is in the eye of the beholder. the degree to which a person can maintain a steady gaze, is the degree to which the focus overcomes the emotions. when you can choose your focus and interact with the foci of others, you will sustain. if your emotions lead the mind, then you will drift wherever your lesser "spirits" will carry you.

 

become one with your emotions, but eventually you need to learn to control them. or they will control you.

 

the state of mind a person holds when passing back, is the most important factor to determining the course of their experience. pass while angry, and it will take you a lot longer to find your way out of the dark realms.

pass while focused, and you may just find exactly what you were imagining all along...

[Pietro]

There is no heaven or hell in my belief system.

 

What you see is what you get.

 

Peace & Love!

and for those of us who have experienced hell, what does your believe system prescribe?

[Marblehead]

and for those of us who have experienced hell, what does your believe system prescribe?

 

I must first clarify the question. Are you talking about a physical life of hell as in you married the wrong woman or are you referring to an illusional hell that you somehow imagined?

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

and for those of us who have experienced hell, what does your believe system prescribe?

 

There are other realms of incarnation that manifest for a being after death from this body that co-generates according to the inhabitants with either less strict physical laws or more strict physical density. Ones inner experience of anything originates dependent upon view or perception.

[Pietro]

I must first clarify the question. Are you talking about a physical life of hell as in you married the wrong woman or are you referring to an illusional hell that you somehow imagined?

 

Peace & Love!

Neither.

 

There are times when you are between wake and sleep. When you feel more or maybe in a different way than usual. It is easy to discount those sensations as lunatic, or unfounded if you are in your right mind. But please do remember that no one remains in its right mind... after he is dead. Those are the times where you feel entities, demons and similar. They are definitely not an illusion, but they are not also part of your physical life as if when you married the wrong woman. You remember the descriptions of lino on the sex with entites thread?

 

I already know what's awaiting on the other side, the current situation is just a taste of the next lifetime.

...

 

I resonate with that. But not always. There are some times, when the doors open. Between sleep and wake. When the room is cold, your energy is low, and you are not protected.

 

While I was experiencing that quite recurrently, in a period of my life. Eventually I reached the deep realization that that was how my "life" was going to feel like, were I to die in that period. It's not a pleasant sensation. The nearest thing I can relate it to is the concept of being in deadly sin, in Christianity.

 

I am not "believing" it to be so. I am observing some experiences I had, and try to make sense of them.

 

The way I could make sense of it was: the life that you lead leaves the door open for those entities. If they come for you while you are alive, it makes you consider what would happen when you don't have the defense of being in a body.

 

[Marblehead]

Okay. The first thing I must say before saying anything else.

 

I love all my psychedelic friends here at Tao Bums. We are such a diverse group of people with very diverse beliefs!

 

Okay. Away we go.

 

First to V. I almost understood what you said. Hehehe.

 

Okay. Now to my friend Pietro.

 

Where do I start? Hum. ...

 

But please do remember that no one remains in its right mind... after he is dead.

 

I would say that this is a given.

 

Those are the times where you feel entities, demons and similar.

 

I have not had those kind of thoughts since I totally gave up the Christian Religion.

 

You remember the descriptions of lino on the sex with entites thread?

 

I don't read that thread. I do read Witch's because I can have a little fun with her in that thread.

 

I already know what's awaiting on the other side, the current situation is just a taste of the next lifetime.

 

I am totally without words to respond to a statement such as this.

 

I am not "believing" it to be so. I am observing some experiences I had, and try to make sense of them.

 

I have no way to respond to this either as I have not had those experiences you speak of.

 

the life that you lead leaves the door open for those entities. If they come for you while you are alive, it makes you consider what would happen when you don't have the defense of being in a body.

 

But if you do not believe in those entities they can never come after you.

 

I know I have not been helpful with this post. I apologize for that.

 

There's really not much more I can say. I love life and I will hold to it as long as I can. And there ain't no entities that are going to screw up any of my days.

 

Peace & Love!

[Easy]

There are other realms of incarnation that manifest for a being after death from this body that co-generates according to the inhabitants with either less strict physical laws or more strict physical density.

 

I cannot help but notice here a distinct sense of certainty in that statement. It is written with the same conviction that one could hear from a Christian (holding four aces) saying 2 + 2 = 4. In order for me, a newbi, to get a perspective on your 10 (+) posts per day, I wanted to know how you come by the confidence to tell me, unequivocally, that these realms exist. (And I am not saying that they don't. You have no argument from me, as yet.)

 

1) Was this a direct observation? Do you have photographs? Or perhaps you have a physical address to which I can travel and take photos of my own.

 

2) Do you have this information on authority? Whose authority?

 

3) Do you have this one on faith; the faith in whom?

 

4) Are you making this up out of whole cloth or patchwork?

 

5) Are you feeling the need to write some kind of coy evasion? Will you write it?

 

6) Are all those teeth in your icon really yours?

 

Sincerely,

Easy

Edited October 10, 2009 by Easy

[Pietro]

the life that you lead leaves the door open for those entities. If they come for you while you are alive, it makes you consider what would happen when you don't have the defense of being in a body.

 

But if you do not believe in those entities they can never come after you.

Look: belief, observation and illusion are three different things. To be able to asses reality as it is you need to distinguish between the three. You practice Taoist arts, so I suppose you move, use and feel Qi. What would you answer to someone that tells you that it is all an illusion, and you should just stop believing in it.

 

That you don't believe in it. And that your observation does not come after belief, but belief come after observation.

 

It's the difference between the word belief as used by religious people, and the word belief as used by scientists.

In the second case it means: "I have looked at this from all possible angles. And given that my information is and will always be limited. Still I can try to propose an explanation for those phenomena."

If I stop "believing" the phenomena would still happen. Because the phenomena predated the belief.

 

When Lino described what he described I could recognize someone who had, in a deeper way, similar experiences to mine. And reached similar conclusions. I appreciate you remaining speechless when confronted with his admission. What can you say?

 

There's really not much more I can say. I love life and I will hold to it as long as I can. And there ain't no entities that are going to screw up any of my days.

 

I am not suggesting that you should change your life. But I am sharing something of mine just to instill the doubt that there might be more that is going on.

 

You said that there is no heaven and hell in your belief system. In this post I spoke about two different ways to believe. Which of the two meaning of the word "belief" were you using? Or do you find a third one?

[Yoda]

Pietro,

 

I'm sorry that you have been through all that!!!

 

Imo, philosophical materialists can't get messed up by esotericism itself which is a huge, huge plus for Marblehead's team.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Vajrahridaya]

 

1) Was this a direct observation? Do you have photographs? Or perhaps you have a physical address to which I can travel and take photos of my own.

 

 

Yes, I have direct experience of these other realms. You can't take photographs really of another dimension using this dimensions technology. You may be able to at some point in the future though??

 

2) Do you have this information on authority? Whose authority?

 

My experiences are corroborated by the information of various texts and current to historical enlightened beings.

 

3) Do you have this one on faith; the faith in whom?

 

Faith in the validity of my direct experience and the experiences elaborated in various texts and autobiographies.

 

4) Are you making this up out of whole cloth or patchwork?

 

No.

 

5) Are you feeling the need to write some kind of coy evasion? Will you write it?

 

Whatever your view and interpretation is relative to your understanding and remembered experience.

6) Are all those teeth in your icon really yours?

 

Yes.

[Easy]

Yes, I have direct experience of these other realms. You can't take photographs really of another dimension using this dimensions technology. You may be able to at some point in the future though??

My experiences are corroborated by the information of various texts and current to historical enlightened beings.

Faith in the validity of my direct experience and the experiences elaborated in various texts and autobiographies.

No.

Whatever your view and interpretation is relative to your understanding and remembered experience.

Yes.

 

Thanks. That's all I wanted to know.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Yes, I have direct experience of these other realms. You can't take photographs really of another dimension using this dimensions technology. You may be able to at some point in the future though??

My experiences are corroborated by the information of various texts and current to historical enlightened beings.

Faith in the validity of my direct experience and the experiences elaborated in various texts and autobiographies.

No.

Whatever your view and interpretation is relative to your understanding and remembered experience.

Yes.

Whoopdedoo, good for you. It does not give your arguments any more merit, it is just your subjective experience.

One's experiences in meditation are only useful to oneself to inform one's spiritual path, they actually mean nothing at all to others. I also tend to disbelieve other's claims of meditative experiences, they mean nothing to me, who cares anyway, one is measured in reality by the way one lives one's life and their presence, not what one states (repeatedly) they have experienced or attained.

Edited October 11, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

Whoopdedoo, good for you. It does not give your arguments any more merit, it is just your subjective experience.

One's experiences in meditation are only useful to oneself to inform one's spiritual path, they actually mean nothing at all to others. I also tend to disbelieve other's claims of meditative experiences, they mean nothing to me, who cares anyway, one is measured in reality by the way one lives one's life and their presence, not what one states (repeatedly) they have experienced or attained.

 

Your so wise Songs. Thanks for your opinion. All those autobiographies from great masters are completely useless and junk food for the spiritually malnourished, right?

 

Get a life... follow someone else around...

 

p.s. He asked me questions and I answered them. Your like seeds in watermelon.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Are all those teeth in your icon really yours?

 

Yes.

 

 

ooohhhhhhhh!!!! Now, I may not be a dentist, but I would beg to differ!!! It is plainly obvious to anyone viewing the said icon, that in fact, there are more than one persons teeth on show! Therefore......They are not really all yours! Unless you go down the 'we are all one route' that is. I think that would be a cop out though.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Your so wise Songs. Thanks for your opinion. All those autobiographies from great masters are completely useless and junk food for the spiritually malnourished, right?

 

Get a life... follow someone else around...

 

p.s. He asked me questions and I answered them. Your like seeds in watermelon.

 

I'm not following you around. You're pretty ubiquitous here. Don't get a complex about it. I post a lot of things unrelated to you, you can check. Besides, I have a life, I don't live on TaoBums, like you do.

 

You're not a great master, there's a big difference. I'm talking about fellow seekers, not the gurus and teachers. But your meditative accomplishments keep coming up again and again in various posts. Again, to you or anyone else, who cares? It's subjective experience and doesn't have merit in relation to what you're saying. You keep bringing them up as if to say, "I really know, I'm right, I've attained this or that state". Who cares? How can anyone else judge? Well, I don't believe it anyway. I also don't believe you have any sort of daily spiritual practice or meditate much anymore. Sorry. You're on here way too much for that to be the case, an supposedly you're really busy with your businesses. But that's me, my take on it. You talk about this stuff way more than you apparently live it. Your words and actions belie your true status, irrespective of all your Buddhist philosophizing.

[Vajrahridaya]

ooohhhhhhhh!!!! Now, I may not be a dentist, but I would beg to differ!!! It is plainly obvious to anyone viewing the said icon, that in fact, there are more than one persons teeth on show! Therefore......They are not really all yours! Unless you go down the 'we are all one route' that is. I think that would be a cop out though.

 

Yes, I was wondering if that was a trick question. LOL! Maybe it was? I was wondering what was meant by that question. I thought of my father who's fronts are not really his, but implants.

 

my take on it.

 

Well, that's the most correct thing you've ever said... if memory serves me right. Thanks for making your ignorance obvious.

 

Seriously Songs, you spend lots of time creating insulting rebuttals.

 

Why don't you spend some time on the cushion, daily... for hours and see what happens for your personal experience and then read experiential references from historical masters and see if the experiences and insights match up?

 

You'd be doing yourself a favor if you did.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Well, that's the most correct thing you've ever said... if memory serves me right. Thanks for making your ignorance obvious.

 

Seriously Songs, you spend lots of time creating insulting rebuttals.

 

Why don't you spend some time on the cushion, daily... for hours and see what happens for your personal experience and then read experiential references from historical masters and see if the experiences and insights match up?

 

 

You'd be doing yourself a favor if you did.

 

 

deleted ...

Edited October 11, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I only spend time responding to your posts when you go over the top, like you are tonight.

 

 

 

My normality is over your top, your right.

 

 

 

Jeez, you seem very irritable tonight.

 

I just don't feel like I should put up with you and your under experienced, under studied, overly judgmental mob that has been on me for many, many months. So, I'm just having fun telling you about yourself right now.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

My normality is over your top, your right.

 

deleted...

Edited October 11, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

Touchy, touchy... don't you ever ask yourself why you keep arguing with everybody all the time?

How come you're the only TB that believes a "mob" is following him?

 

 

Lordy, lordy...

 

Your not that objective... are you?

 

Have a good life.

 

Oh... It doesn't take me much time to write a few hundred word reply. Just to let you know... I do get more done per day than you have any notion of.

 

Your on ignore.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

Lordy, lordy...

 

Your not that objective... are you?

 

Have a good life.

 

Oh... It doesn't take me much time to write a few hundred word reply. Just to let you know... I do get more done per day than you have any notion of.

 

Your on ignore.

 

 

edited

 

inserted instead, an entertaining musical interlude to the "Hell in Taoism thread"...

 

icr71H1nb3Q

Edited October 11, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth