Who wants to be a Qigong Grand Master?

[z00se]

I've practiced qigong for nearly 3 years consistantly, including some 3 month stretches practicing more than 5-6 hours a day - every day (Mantak Chia's method -Irons shirt I & III, and all the fusion meditations). Now i've just started taiji, studying under a master in China for 6 months. I know i am still a meditation beginner but when i think of when i had only just began, now i have much better abilities. However, often i question myself what is the point? Sure i have had awesome sensory experiences and experiences that are more intense than recreational drugs but how much time have i sacraficed for it? Why are we manufacturing the feelings and experiences through meditation when we should be living a healthy life with healthy food and exercise and experiencing the feelings from external stimuli. Sometimes i feel that i'm so conscious on my energies within my body that even when i am interacting with others i miss alot of the detail because my attention is trained on feeling on the inside.

Also meditation does make me very relaxed, very clear headed and calm and at peace... but to be honest sometimes feeling what i thought is the perfect state is boring (even a feeling of total bliss). At the start u want the peace, etc, these new feelings you haven't had for a while but the same thing for a long time can get boring. When you try something new it re-kindles my interest but i feel trying new things would be contrary to the long term goals of meditation.

It seems that most of the grand masters i hear about have some illness that they are trying to correct through meditations. If they were perfectly healthy they wouldn't have the patience to sit there for so many hours. I also have some not-major health issue that can't be corrected by any doctor and meditation has definately helped somewhat, but any time i lapse in my practice the pain returns. This forces me and gives me the patience to practice.

I think the point i'm trying to make is that if you're healthy, then i really think it's not worth wasting your time

with lots of meditation and trying to be englightened. Unless you are like a saint and always eat healthy, never

booze up and are consistant in your practice for a very long time u're not going to get there... and when you do get there it's so easy to lose it However, if you're travelling in the bus and bored or something similar then meditation can make you happy or feel good at a time when you would normally be bored, so i think it has good value for filling in the empty boring parts of your life, resting you for your next exciting moment.

[Li TaoRen]

i guess it depends how you look at it. If the goal is Enlightenment, it is a way of life; not only meditation but overall lifestyle and attitudes- you are right. Many meditation and qigong masters would advise a regular Joe to practice twice daily for about 30 minutes. I myself have had excellent results this way. Attempting to sit for hours on end can often do more harm than good. Ive seen alot of monks sit for long periods, but much of that time was spent chanting and prayer. Quality beats quantity.

 

I've practiced qigong for nearly 3 years consistantly, including some 3 month stretches practicing more than 5-6 hours a day - every day (Mantak Chia's method -Irons shirt I & III, and all the fusion meditations). Now i've just started taiji, studying under a master in China for 6 months. I know i am still a meditation beginner but when i think of when i had only just began, now i have much better abilities. However, often i question myself what is the point? Sure i have had awesome sensory experiences and experiences that are more intense than recreational drugs but how much time have i sacraficed for it? Why are we manufacturing the feelings and experiences through meditation when we should be living a healthy life with healthy food and exercise and experiencing the feelings from external stimuli. Sometimes i feel that i'm so conscious on my energies within my body that even when i am interacting with others i miss alot of the detail because my attention is trained on feeling on the inside.

Also meditation does make me very relaxed, very clear headed and calm and at peace... but to be honest sometimes feeling what i thought is the perfect state is boring (even a feeling of total bliss). At the start u want the peace, etc, these new feelings you haven't had for a while but the same thing for a long time can get boring. When you try something new it re-kindles my interest but i feel trying new things would be contrary to the long term goals of meditation.

It seems that most of the grand masters i hear about have some illness that they are trying to correct through meditations. If they were perfectly healthy they wouldn't have the patience to sit there for so many hours. I also have some not-major health issue that can't be corrected by any doctor and meditation has definately helped somewhat, but any time i lapse in my practice the pain returns. This forces me and gives me the patience to practice.

I think the point i'm trying to make is that if you're healthy, then i really think it's not worth wasting your time

with lots of meditation and trying to be englightened. Unless you are like a saint and always eat healthy, never

booze up and are consistant in your practice for a very long time u're not going to get there... and when you do get there it's so easy to lose it However, if you're travelling in the bus and bored or something similar then meditation can make you happy or feel good at a time when you would normally be bored, so i think it has good value for filling in the empty boring parts of your life, resting you for your next exciting moment.

[Josh Young]

It is never about a destination, to make it about that is to waste now.

It is about now, to waste that is to be concerned with a destination.

Attachment to destination gets in the way of many peoples enlightenment.

 

Why be enlightened?

for later?

To escape rebirth and death cycles?

 

What nonsense.

If you seek enlightenment like a prize it will always be ahead of you, something you anticipate and do not have. If you count on being enlightened in this way then you have no room for enlightenment now.

 

People do not need enlightenment for later.

It is not a shiny gold star at the end of a long struggle.

It is that which eases the burden, lifts the weight, here and now.

[z00se]

It is never about a destination, to make it about that is to waste now.

 

Why be enlightened?

for later?

 

It is not a shiny gold star at the end of a long struggle.

It is that which eases the burden, lifts the weight, here and now.

 

Yes very good point. I know this and sometimes i really do feel partly englightened like everything in life is great, the bad thoughts just fade away, and sometimes i feel like... - everything is for me, and i feel so confident.

 

An example is... I feel everything i do is because i want to do it... and if at any time my desires change i will change what i do. I feel totally in control of my own life at every minute.

 

But this feeling is short lived. And if i reduce my practice, maybe still daily but a shorter period of time, its like i have too much energy and nowhere for it to go and I lose my clarityand get moody. It's a little disapointing. I feel that it's not just a matter of practicing for half or one hour a day to maintain my level, i can't seem to maintain it with that. It's like exercising every day then exercising only 3 days a week and expecting to keep the same level of fitness.

 

Having said that though, i'm also starting to realise that if I am feeling very balanced and in control of all my emotions I can't have the spontanious overwealming emotional surprises that life brings. Also it's actually useful to be angry, sad or scared some times. They're normal natural feelings and converting them into so called "healthy" energy is a bit like me programming my body like a computer. If your sacraficing your time to meditation and not being able to have all the emotional expressions in life and you are using that energy to cure illness that sounds great, but if you're not curing illness are you really acheiving?

 

It's like as you advance in your practice and reach different levels, you recieve some rewards but you also sacrafice some things too.

 

Does anyone else have these thoughts?

[Spirit Ape]

Health is more important what ever exercise you do, sitting still needs to be balanced with movement as well hard and soft power training to maintain the body for longevity. Enlightenment can come to people without meditation, use meditation to relax if need be only. Enjoy life while you can move and see, hear, feel!!!

 

Ape

[Teddy]

Sometimes i feel that i'm so conscious on my energies within my body that even when i am interacting with others i miss alot of the detail because my attention is trained on feeling on the inside.

 

If you hadn't done the introspective work, you would probably mistake what you are now 'feeling on the inside' as coming from the others that you are interacting with.

[de_paradise]

Counting all the "I's" and "me's" in your phrasing, you sound so self-absorbed. Why bother?

 

Secondly, you seem to understand enlightenment as a subset of our normal mundane existence, good for health and trippy experiences, not an entirely different existence which has a still higher reality than what we consider reality.

 

I could be wrong, but thats the impression you give.

[Josh Young]

How many forsake now for later?

 

Wanting to reach a "higher" level.

Be careful that when you reach it that you don't fall from the pedestal.

Also be careful how you look "down" on people who aren't at your "level"

After all ordinary people must seem so little from up there.

 

Where is this mundane that people talk about?

How is this world not miraculous and amazing?

Edited July 17, 2009 by Josh Young

[z00se]

Firstly, thankyou all for your comments, you have some very helpful and insightful ideas.

 

I only use "I" because i'm talking about my experiences, i can't use "you" because i don't know anyone elses experiences.

 

I don't feel i am on a pedestal, i only feel i have improved myself on a personal level in meditation since when i began. Everyone develops their own life in the way they like (ie family, spirituality, business, career, money) and for the last 2 years i have concentrated, due to environmental factors, family and spirtuality. I only talk about levels.. perhaps i should use "personal breakthroughs" instead (I have seen other people on here write things this way). I think it's definately not good to look down on others because everyone is equal, but everybody should also regard themselves highly and have the confidence to do what they want to do, not follow along with what the others want. Besides this i think the time i have meditated barely puts me on a pedestal i feel i have only just begun to understand the practice.

 

I think everyone forsakes now for later. Thats why we have money so you can work now and be free to enjoy the fruits of your labour later.

I think there are many great and wise saying about how we should live for the better, and all are very true, but theres a world of difference between KNOWING whats best and DOING whats best.

The world is miraculous and amazing, but it also sucks bad sometimes too. It's extreemly difficult to always be happy about everything all the time, like Jesus, nailed to the cross by some people and then he tells god to 'forgive them because they know not what they do' haha i know this is very great but i could never be like that!

 

I know i can be pessamistic and this is something i try to work on in my meditation but i also think these are very valid points and since through meditation we are trying to see the truth of what is really there we shouldn't be trying to blind ourselves by only being optimistic and seeing only half the picture.

[seadog]

Sometimes we can get so caught up in ourselves that it becomes destructive.

The surest antidote to your problem is servitude.

There is no end to people and animals that can be of benifit to the energies of someone who is fit.

As you know there is a time to help ourselves and there is a time to help others.

[Josh Young]

I think everyone forsakes now for later. That is why we have money so you can work now and be free to enjoy the fruits of your labour later.

I disagree there, it being my belief that we have money as a way to ensure that the working class depends upon the upper class whom they serve via exploitation. It is the paper that the contract for the human soul is printed upon. It is not the value of labor that determines compensation, rather the idea with money is to compensate labor as little as possible, ergo the fruits of labor are enjoyed by those commanding the laborers, while the workers are paid as little as possible to ensure their continued labor. It is economic aristocracy and the basis of modern caste and class division.

Also the idea that "everyone" does it... if everyone has a bad idea it is still a bad idea. Consensus is irrelevant to reality.

 

Seadog, your post above is my favorite post I have read online so far in my life.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Josh Young

[de_paradise]

How many forsake now for later?

 

Wanting to reach a "higher" level.

Be careful that when you reach it that you don't fall from the pedestal.

Also be careful how you look "down" on people who aren't at your "level"

After all ordinary people must seem so little from up there.

 

Where is this mundane that people talk about?

How is this world not miraculous and amazing?

 

Josh, we are talking about the state of enlightenment that comes from evolution of one's jing qi, and shen, "higher" is just a term. It serves no purpose to imply that someone who uses these terms are being elitist. For some reason, many people throw out this red herring in debate, for example accusing buddhists in being elitist because they use the term Nirvana and Samsara. Kick and scream, denounce, all you want, but there are people who have access to higher realities. Mundane world is also a term, of course its a groovy place, but to distinguish this place from other worlds and realities, we use this term.

[Josh Young]

Where does the recognition of terms start and stop?

Is not "other" a term?

What about "worlds"?

Or "realities"

 

You say "people" "have" "access" to "other" "realities"

But all of these are terms, no more and no less.

 

"Enlightenment" you say is a "state" and that "evolution" is involved.

 

Kick and scream, denounce, all you want

Why denounce or kick or scream?

 

Please tell me, what it a "term" and what is it used for?

 

These concepts, that people have access to higher realities, this is something you have faith in, not knowledge.

 

Do you presume that I have not experienced "other" "realities"?

How much we believe we know, and how little we all do.

Myself being no exception.

 

The holier than thou game is what organized religions are all about.

I believe that the examples speak for themselves.

[h.uriahr]

How many forsake now for later?

 

Wanting to reach a "higher" level.

Be careful that when you reach it that you don't fall from the pedestal.

Also be careful how you look "down" on people who aren't at your "level"

After all ordinary people must seem so little from up there.

 

Where is this mundane that people talk about?

How is this world not miraculous and amazing?

 

Why do you talk as if you actually know anything about enlightenment?

[Josh Young]

Because underneath the distraction we are all enlightened beings.

[h.uriahr]

Because underneath the distraction we are all enlightened beings.

 

Are you not distracted?

 

Enlightened beings? I dont agree with that. I believe that "the seed" is there waiting to be watered but I dont personally believe that we are already enlightened, waiting for that "aha" moment.

 

Blessings

[Josh Young]

Are you not distracted?

From what?

Enlightened beings? I dont agree with that. I believe that "the seed" is there waiting to be watered but I dont personally believe that we are already enlightened, waiting for that "aha" moment.

It is my belief that we are all enlightened beings.

 

I believe you are right, that we are not waiting for that "aha" moment.

 

It is not a matter of realizing what you do not know, it is a matter of realizing what you have always known.

 

Why do you talk as if you actually know anything about enlightenment?

Why do you write as if you do not?

[findley]

LOL z00se-- meditation has obviously nt made you any smarter! !! !!!

[dragonfire]

Some students will never understand the true

reasons for meditation. Just understand that when you

think you are alone, you might not be.

 

It obviously shows you have learned nothing and not asking the

right questions or enough questions.

[Martial Development]

LOL @ this thread. Everyone wants to raise, and nobody wants to put their cards on the table.

 

Start by telling us what you know. Then tell us what you don't know. Only after all that, tell us what you think.

 

Or fold and go home.

[Stigweard]

LOL @ this thread. Everyone wants to raise, and nobody wants to put their cards on the table.

 

Start by telling us what you know. Then tell us what you don't know. Only after all that, tell us what you think.

 

Or fold and go home.

Nope I got nothin'

 

[z00se]

Thankyou all again for your thoughts. I feel Josh and Seadog have some great insights.

 

I think looking and trying to help others is definately something i should try to concentrate on since indeed i feel i have something i can give to others and it will help me to grow too.

 

I believe that the examples speak for themselves.

I believe they certainly do, everywhere in life. Nobody needs to speak out that certain things anyone would say is stupid, since anyone who is clever enough to realise it already knows

 

Besides this, even more importantly is that we speak to ourselves in our head... commentating on our lives as we live them, but why do we need to speak to ourselves about what is happening when we already know what is happening - we had to see it first with our own eyes to know it was happening to commentate it in our heads. So this commentating is absolutly useless. Our brains don't 'speak' english... we dont' need to use english to analyze things. I'm in china and their brains don't use chinese to analyse things. We just use the language we have been taught to do it for no apparent reason. ... Strangely enough i've noticed that apparently the dogs here also speak chinese

 

I think we can all have the 'aha' moment and have a moment of enlightenment but that doesn't mean it stays with you any longer than that moment.

 

It obviously shows you have learned nothing and not asking the

right questions or enough questions.

 

I think it's not a matter of asking questions so much, and it's certainly not about learning, it's about letting things work their own course (although of course you can change the course for better or for worse . I think if anyone looks inside themselves and asks themselves the questions they already know most of the answers... maybe others can just speak what you have been thinking to make it more concrete in your thoughts. If you are clear in your thoughts, everything just pieces together, intertwining and u get the feeling "of course things are the way they are", everything thats happened has made it that way. So if you want to change the way things are just do something (nomatter how small) about it now which will change your course and head you in the right direction.

 

I feel it can be entertaining to discuss matters but anyone looking for an arguement over enlightenment is certainly on a backwards step on the journey.

 

LOL z00se-- meditation has obviously nt made you any smarter! !! !!!

Yes i've slowly been managing to push some of my excessive studying to the back storeroom of my brain and reducing my "smartness" so that i can have some clear ideas of my own, rather than the tested proven correctness of standard education.

[Josh Young]

Start by telling us what you know.

That knowledge is an illusion, it is only belief put into stronger terms.

This illusion is all there is. We think we know, but we do not. This even applies to colors, we think we know colors, but we do not, we only experience them. Experience is not knowledge.

 

Then tell us what you don't know.

everything/nothing

 

Only after all that, tell us what you think.

I don't, actually. What am I to think?

What I am does not think, what is thinking is not me.

But this is the same as my answer to the first part, because it has to do with what "I" know. And "I" know that "I" know no thing.

[宁]

Start by telling us what you know.

That knowledge is an illusion, it is only belief put into stronger terms.

This illusion is all there is. We think we know, but we do not. This even applies to colors, we think we know colors, but we do not, we only experience them. Experience is not knowledge.

 

Then tell us what you don't know.

everything/nothing

 

Only after all that, tell us what you think.

I don't, actually. What am I to think?

What I am does not think, what is thinking is not me.

But this is the same as my answer to the first part, because it has to do with what "I" know. And "I" know that "I" know no thing.

 

this position would qualify you as an agnostic.

if i remember correctly, daoist do believe in a correspondence between the microcosm and the macrocosm, which allow them to gather enough knowledge to work up practical steps by which a human being can improve itself, in many many ways.

i think maybe it's just a phase you're going thru.

 

cheers

[Josh Young]

If you don't mind please explain how this qualifies someone as agnostic?

I do not understand your conclusion.