The Chicken or the Egg?

[JustARandomPanda]

I would recommend reading "Jnana Yoga -- The way of knowledge" by Dr Ramakrishna Puligandla (he's a physicist and a philosopher trained in classical indian style -- gurukulam).

You can find his title on Amazon.com.

 

This is a wonderful work on MAdhyamika and Advaita and presented in simple, lucid form and would act as a great starting place before venturing into more traditional titles. But when I say starter book, I don't mean it's a "Jnana Yoga for Dummies". Au contraire, the book is a classic to have in your library and active reading list. Re-reading it gives more insights...the more you read the deeper it makes you think...

 

 

I will look for that book. Thanks!

Edited August 2, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Vajrahridaya]

dude remember I told you about those dreams I had last night where I was flying around my house? it was just like Wakign Life where he starts floating out of his bed and starts flying around. haha

 

Yup! That movie probably dislodged many subconscious false archetypes within so many people.

 

I bet you had more flying dreams after seeing that movie as well....

 

I wonder how this thread got to arguing Buddhist v. Hindu 'realizations' on a TAOIST board.

 

Oh, it's just a whole bunch of fun! Questioning philosophical structures and ideation's. Granting opinions and basing them on historical presences.... It's all just a big play anyway...

[Marblehead]

Trying to find your particular spiritual path will end up being the most bewildering, the most confusing, difficult, trying, trialing, but also... the MOST rewarding situation one could get oneself into.

 

Well, lucky me! I once again get to agree with Vajrahridaya.

 

Be well!

 

Edited to add:

 

And a nice post from Dwai above.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Marblehead

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited August 2, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

From the Pali Cannon... What are known as the original teachings of the Buddha.

 

BUDDHAS DESCRIPTION OF SOME WRONG VIEWS:

 

The Buddha says:

 

"There is the case where an uninstructed, run of the mill person.... does not discern what ideas are fit for attention....

.... "As he attends innappropriately in this way, one of the six kinds of views rises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true and established, or the view I have no self... or the view it is precisely by means of the self that I percieve the self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is percisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true and established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine... the knower that is sensitive here and there (omnipresent) to the ripening of good and bad actions is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity.

 

"This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run of the mill person is not freed from birth, aging, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair. He is not freed I tell you, from suffering and stress." (In a permanent way.)

 

"The well instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention, and attends instead to ideas fit for attention... He attends appropriately, This is stresss.... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: Identity-view, doubt, and the grasping at precepts and practices."

 

So, as one can see above. The Buddha spoke quite clearly that there is no self existing eternal Truth that is the true subject of all beings, that is known in Vedanta as the absolute Self. The real identity of all things that is eternal is subverted by the Madhyamaka of Nagarjuna and clearly by the Buddha as well.

[dwai]

Edited August 2, 2009 by dwai

[Vajrahridaya]

QUOTE(dwai @ Aug 2 2009, 01:16 PM)

 

 

Does that sound like Brahman to you?

 

Sure does to me...

 

 

 

 

Oh boy... yes another scripture that non-buddhists just refuse to understand. They love to propagate their self existing eternalistic ideas onto it.

 

The realization of Nirvana is eternal. The self spoken of is the body/mind complex that has accumulated the heaps through realization and one realizes the Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and the Nirmanakaya.

 

There is still NO reification of a truly self existing eternal self. Other than the endless realization that is Nirvana.

 

This Self of the Buddha is in fact merely the realization of the inherent non-abiding nature of all things, always since beginningless time.

 

It's not the self of Vedanta and not a source of all existence. The dharmakaya is a result body.

 

To read this scripture properly, one needs a genuine teacher who understands the subtleties. Otherwise, one will be just like Dwai and reify, reify, reify without proper comprehension of the meaning.

 

Yes Dwai, you are wrong again from a genuine Buddhist perspective.

 

Most of this commentary is what is known as Dark Zen style and they are a fringe Buddhist group and not accepted by the vast majority of Buddhist groups, at all.

 

Atman is being used in a figurative manor here, in the sense that all beings have the potentiality of realization.

 

This scripture is also argued against as being somewhat of a Hindu concoction. Because it's the absolute only scripture that talks about an eternal self existing Self, when in the Pali Suttas he clearly states that there is not, as I quoted in the Chicken Egg thread.

 

Hindu's looooove this scripture though. I know, I used to love it and use it to propagate my view which was akin to Dwai's for many years of my life. I realized I was wrong though and off the mark.

 

There is positive in Buddhism. Realization is very positive. But there is no reification of a Self, course or fine, limited or unlimited... only relative, never ultimate. Unless it's talking about the ultimate realization that is Nirvana, which means like a flame put out.

 

The true nature of things is inherent in as much as the inherent nature of things are empty, not that there is a true and abiding essence. Unless one were to talk of essence as in the essential nature is non-abiding. There is still no super Will to surrender to, no divine conductor of the play, no true being behind all being.

 

I'm talking about Buddhism as a whole, not one fringe scripture that really needs some contextualization.

[Meson]

[Vajrahridaya]

[JustARandomPanda]

I would recommend reading "Jnana Yoga -- The way of knowledge" by Dr Ramakrishna Puligandla (he's a physicist and a philosopher trained in classical indian style -- gurukulam).

 

 

Wow. What a blast from the past! I managed to get that book. Thanks!

[xabir2005]

Neither chicken nor egg can be posited as a 'first cause' to chicken.

 

Chicken were evolutions from non-chicken birds. Non-chicken birds were evolution of... blah blah blah

 

The process of evolution can be traced back... the process of the universe can be traced back... All the way back to the big bang.

 

But even the big bang is not the ultimate beginning in Buddhism, as there were previous universes.

 

In short: there is no first cause, as the Buddha clearly put forth: "there is no beginning to samsara". The flow of dependent origination has been going on without beginning.

[gendao]

Pretty self explanatory.

 

Did the chicken come first...

 

OR

 

the egg?

 

Edit: This is an incredibly important question. Actually, I think everything comes down to this question.

False dilemna.

 

That's like asking, "Which came first - the adult or the fetus? The teenager or young adult?"

 

 

All of these various dogmatic answers are way too convoluted, because they are answering a question based upon an invalid premise to begin with.

[JustARandomPanda]

OMG. I just went through some of this thread again. I've been laughing my ass off! :lol:

 

Ah! I love it when humor breaks out at TB.

[dwai]

Wow. What a blast from the past! I managed to get that book. Thanks!

I hope you enjoy it and learn from it as i did

[mYTHmAKER]

http://theweek.com/a...-without-an-egg

[eye_of_the_storm]

void

Edited April 23, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Spiralmind]

In western terms the bunny rabbit came first, laying multiple chicken eggs, and then hopping away!

[Informer]

Would it make a difference at all to know?