Why cant we look at what is in front of us?

[fire]

I really wonder when I read through here how many people try and use the powers that are right in front of us instead of trying to rely on some "magical" property to do things for them?

 

I suppose I am not full taoist as I do not think that unexplainable things will solve anything..................

 

I guess I look for factual information I strive too see explanation. I have said this before but again,Self knowledge is a more reliable guide to behavior than adherence to arbitrarily imposed standards.

 

Instead of looking for answers that have no clear explanation why not look inside ourselves?

[Lucky7Strikes]

I really wonder when I read through here how many people try and use the powers that are right in front of us instead of trying to rely on some "magical" property to do things for them?

 

I suppose I am not full taoist as I do not think that unexplainable things will solve anything..................

 

I guess I look for factual information I strive too see explanation. I have said this before but again,Self knowledge is a more reliable guide to behavior than adherence to arbitrarily imposed standards.

 

Instead of looking for answers that have no clear explanation why not look inside ourselves?

 

And what is me,

 

That I should look into?

[Marblehead]

Hi Fire,

 

I think I agree with what you said above. (Hehehe. Just not really sure what you are suggesting.)

 

(I know nothing about 'magic' or the 'supernatural' so I cannot speak on these concepts.)

 

Be well!

Edited July 20, 2009 by Marblehead

[fire]

Hi Fire,

 

I think I agree with what you said above. (Hehehe. Just not really sure what you are suggesting.)

 

(I know nothing about 'magic' or the 'supernatural' so I cannot speak on these concepts.)

 

Be well!

 

 

 

Simply to live in the moment not be swayed by ideas that others create yet to look inside our own minds for virtue and answers, In the end the only person that makes or breaks your being is yourself.

 

It is good to understand the ideas of others when there ideas are true yet when it is just handed down information it is tactless and hurtful.

 

I think many people should delve into the true nature of human beings instead of striving for the path of enlightenment through the ideas of others or practices that make no sense to them.

 

There are too many one sided completely liberal ideas that are only based on rhetoric of pseudo ideas. You can not experience kindness without understanding cruelty and vice versa.

 

The way of the tao in my eyes is about complete balance.

 

I fail to see where is says anything about being completely kind at all times or jumping to conclusions on sexual and remedial practices. These were only ideas that were tacked on.

 

I fail to see where doing some sort of exercise or eating some certain herb is going to make me understand myself better.

 

We cannot understand balance in the world before understanding balance within ourselves, we are the complete controllers of our own emotions.

 

At the end of the day it is our ideas that we lie in bed and contemplate and we are the ones that can choose to grasp or release what we feel in our hearts is right or wrong it has nothing to do with chakras herbs martial arts retention or anything, it is pure it wont take any of those to achieve the same goal many of those practices in my eyes are only distractions.

 

 

It is peace, hate, love, war, creation, and destruction yet it is all a part of our natural lives we should not deny the existance or the purpose of any good or bad.

 

You dont need anything un explainable to understand the coarse of true human nature but when you can see everything for what it is in its simplest form it will give you more of an understanding than chasing ideas that the explanation is simply out of reach.

 

I am in no way enlightened and I dont think I even am trying to achieve anything besides an understanding of human nature.

 

Some of these things may work for some , and not for others, that is my point.

 

Follow your heart, think for yourself, question everything, question everything, question everything, question everything. Did I say question everything?

 

 

Also, I just want to say this is only my personal opinion I am in no way trying to offend anyone and if anyone can explain in a way that makes sense to me how I can benefit from other ideas of reasoning I am very open to understand.

Edited July 23, 2009 by fire

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Fire, you are a little vague in exactly what you are criticizing, but I will try to comment on what I think you are noticing.

 

It is good to understand the ideas of others when there ideas are true yet when it is just handed down information it is tactless and hurtful.

 

I think many people should delve into the true nature of human beings instead of striving for the path of enlightenment through the ideas of others or practices that make no sense to them.

 

You are right; it is both fruitless and sometimes detrimental to pursue a practice that you do not really understand and that you do not have proper guidance through. IF, though, you are under proper guidance and are being initiated into a particular system of wisdom, then there is often a lot of valuable techniques and knowledge to be learned. There are many superstitions out there, it is true, but you often cannot judge what is superstition and what is genuine without looking to the progress of your potential teachers and asking yourself if you believe in their spiritual accomplishments and trust your progress to them.

 

For instance - For a very long time I believed that seated meditation was pointless. I could meditate very effectively while lying down in my bed and achieve great things. I thought that the formal lotus posture, stiff back, and hand seals were just extra tradition and baggage to the true meditative states. After many years of meditating my own way I followed a trusted friends advice and spent a months at a zendo learning formal Zen practice. At first I was vindicated. This posture seemed pointless, since I was not able to get deep with it and my body screamed against it (since I was out of shape). As my body got used to the posture over the months of daily practice, I found that it helped me to go much much deeper than before. The combination of static and relaxed muscles, plus the increased alignment of my spine and pressure on my dantien from my diaphragm all worked together to significantly transform my practice for the better.

 

Some things that you encounter will just be cultural relics or specific period rituals designed to focus the mind and intention [ritual magic], but other things are there for a very significant, time tested purpose. If you discard everything to find your own way, you will also lose all of the genuine tools given to us by the ancients for our practice.

 

I fail to see where is says anything about being completely kind at all times or jumping to conclusions on sexual and remedial practices. These were only ideas that were tacked on.

 

I fail to see where doing some sort of exercise or eating some certain herb is going to make me understand myself better.

 

We cannot understand balance in the world before understanding balance within ourselves, we are the complete controllers of our own emotions.

 

Have you tried the exercise or the herb? There are many qigong exercises which will help you significantly in understanding how your energy moves through your body and in how your mind and will interact with your body. Herbs are medicines, and they help to heal or balance the physical body with the mind, energy, or spirit. They are one more component of Traditional Chinese Medicine and there use for spiritual practice is much older than the Tao Te Ching and has always been a component in Chinese spirituality. For the Chinese, you must have a healthy, balanced body and mind in order to safely pursue higher truths. If you haven't done it before, I suggest that you try going to a TCM doctor just for the sake of having them balance your energy. It is a wonderful experience and you cannot discount it until you have tried it.

 

How can you know anything about yourself if you neglect your body. You body is a very significant part of who and what you are in this moment and its condition largly influences your mind and your emotions (through hormones, endorphins, spacial sense, pain and pleasure, etc.)

 

I would counter your comment on the emotions by saying that we have little control of our emotions until after learning more about our relationship to our body and our inner physic world. Without some inward reflection, you cannot achieve harmony with the outside world, because the outside world will push you around and "cause" you to get angry, ecstatic, lusty, violent, suicidal, and so on.

 

It is peace, hate, love, war, creation, and destruction yet it is all a part of our natural lives we should not deny the existance or the purpose of any good or bad.

 

It is true that such relatie concepts have no ultimate meaning, but that does not mean that I am morally free to kill, rape, or otherwise harm another human being. Yes, you should understand and accept all of the aspects of your psyche as part of who you are, but you should not act on those base, selfish instincts. By sitting and forgetting, as Chuang Tsu calls it, your mind becomes calm, clear, and steady. The self diminishes and eventually vanishes and you are able to act in a state of wu-wei, or do-non-action. Everything that you then do will be truly natural. If you try to be amoral without first returning to non-being and being in harmony with the Tao, you will just be selfish and self-serving with thinking yourself "natural."

 

Follow your heart, think for yourself, question everything, question everything, question everything, question everything. Did I say question everything?

 

This is excellent advice. But you cannot ask the right questions unless you have all of the information. And unfortunately, in esoteric traditions you get new information only when you have mastered the old. So you cannot judge the whole system until you have mastered the whole system. [This is one of the big reasons that the ancients kept the practices secret. Today you can learn about advanced sperm retention techniques and do them without the background, guidance, or experience needed to perform them properly. This goes doubly for Taoist alchemy, which is deliberately veiled in allegory and symbolism in order to protect the uninitiated from themselves.]

 

A very big part of questioning everything is in first understanding the technique and understanding why it was used and pursued. The chakras, for instance, may seem superfluous or silly to someone who has never experienced the sensation of having them open and active. To those who have felt this, even if the feeling was psycho-somatic, the practice of working to nderstanding them leads to much greater discoveries of the self.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[goldisheavy]

I guess I look for factual information I strive too see explanation.

 

Then explain your need for explanations. To yourself, not to us. It might be instructive to you.

[Marblehead]

Hi Fire,

 

Nice post. Very nice response from Zhuo Ming-Dao as well.

 

The truth is, we all have our own journey and we each must walk our own path. Sometimes we walk alone, sometimes we walk with others for a while. A path that is good for me might be very bad for another.

 

And I agree that if we have not walked a particular path we really don't know if it would be good for us or not. And even if we have walked the path and found that it is not good for us this doesn't mean that it would not be good for another. We can speak only for ourself.

 

I personally hold to no religion but I recognize that for many people there is a need to have something greater to look to rather than their confused manifest life. Religion offers continuity to many.

 

This is also true regarding various practices for attaining whatever. Formal practices offer continuity. If we can find continuity withour religion or formal practices then this too is good.

 

It is my understanding that the foremost object in our life is to be content and at peace with our Self. How we attain this condition will always be an individual effort even though we might walk with others during our journey.

 

Be well!

[fire]

 

This is excellent advice. But you cannot ask the right questions unless you have all of the information. And unfortunately, in esoteric traditions you get new information only when you have mastered the old. So you cannot judge the whole system until you have mastered the whole system. [This is one of the big reasons that the ancients kept the practices secret. Today you can learn about advanced sperm retention techniques and do them without the background, guidance, or experience needed to perform them properly. This goes doubly for Taoist alchemy, which is deliberately veiled in allegory and symbolism in order to protect the uninitiated from themselves.]

 

A very big part of questioning everything is in first understanding the technique and understanding why it was used and pursued. The chakras, for instance, may seem superfluous or silly to someone who has never experienced the sensation of having them open and active. To those who have felt this, even if the feeling was psycho-somatic, the practice of working to nderstanding them leads to much greater discoveries of the self.

 

Thank you, this makes sense to me I really needed some basis on why some of these things are so and I think you have given some clarity to them for me, I thank you for that.

 

Is it possible to understand or learn the meaning of traditions of old? Where do I start? what do I read?

 

I always strive for a big picture I am most likely more trying to achieve broad knowledge than enlightenment.

 

Also my attitude that may seem very critical is only my nature of questioning everything and striving for knowledge.

 

 

 

Hi Fire,

 

 

I personally hold to no religion but I recognize that for many people there is a need to have something greater to look to rather than their confused manifest life. Religion offers continuity to many.

 

This is also true regarding various practices for attaining whatever. Formal practices offer continuity. If we can find continuity withour religion or formal practices then this too is good.

 

Be well!

 

Thanks marblehead I think we share some of the same views, Though I am coming to the realization in the last few months that I am agnostic.

 

I think the tao has been the greatest reference to life for me out of any religious text because it follows so closely to nature as do I without forcing a stringent idea of "god".

Edited July 23, 2009 by fire

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

If you want broad knowledge, I can suggest a variety of books. Of course, it depends on what tradition you want to understand. Each tradition approached the ultimate in different ways, but all of their very different approaches were with the goal of providing tools to aid in the understanding of the self and its relationship with the world. For instance, while the Taoists monks developed many techniques to strengthen and harmonize the body, the Hindu Yogis performed sever asceticism and mortification of the body in order to transcend the physical. Extremely different tools, with essentially the same purpose.

[Marblehead]

Hi Fire,

 

Though I am coming to the realization in the last few months that I am agnostic.

 

Hehehe. Well, at least being an Agnostic you can say "I don't know." I have gone so far as to admit that I am an Atheist. (I'm pretending I know. Shame on me.)

 

Be well!

[fire]

If you want broad knowledge, I can suggest a variety of books. Of course, it depends on what tradition you want to understand. Each tradition approached the ultimate in different ways, but all of their very different approaches were with the goal of providing tools to aid in the understanding of the self and its relationship with the world. For instance, while the Taoists monks developed many techniques to strengthen and harmonize the body, the Hindu Yogis performed sever asceticism and mortification of the body in order to transcend the physical. Extremely different tools, with essentially the same purpose.

 

 

I think I would like to know both but for the purpose of what I already have a basic knowledge of the writings, I would like to understand the taoist ways first.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

You should, of course, begin by reading a good translation of the Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing) and the Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi). I am also rather partial to the Lieh Tzu. These very ancient texts (plus the Nieh Yeh, I Ching (Yijing), and the Yellow Emperor's Classic on Internal Medicine) will give you a grounding in the classical philosophical ideas that gave birth to Taoism.

 

For more of an overview on how these original ideas came to be (over many thousands of years) what we see today, you should look at some of Dr. Livia Kohan's work. Daoism and Chinese Culture is a good start and Daoist Body Cultivation puts all of the different practices into good perspective.

 

The best way to judge these things, in my opinion, is to try some of them out. Start by trying to experience Chi (qi). This can be done by simply rubbing your hands together and feeling the tingle. Then make the tingle move with your mind. With a little practice you will be able to cause physical sensations throughout your body simply by placing your awareness on it (this is called using the Yi mind). Once you can move a little energy, try doing a few chi kung (qigong) practices and you will find that you experience even more sensations. Taoism is not a religion to be accepted or denied on faith but a spiritual system to be proven or disproven through personal evidence and experience. As you progress you will find that many practices work for you and some will not, but you will be able to feel it directly rather than purely intellectually.

 

For a good introduction to energy work techniques, which will help you to understand all the other Taoist practices, I recommend Robert Bruce's work. He is a wonderful gateway drug for westerners .

 

http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutorials/ne...ways/index.html

 

Also, as I said before, get an acupuncture and herbal treatment. Most major cities have a TCM collage where you can get a student treatment for very cheap (or free if you say that you might be interested in studying there).

 

While books are wonderful (and I have read a lot!), I still find that experience is the best teacher.

 

....

 

For fun you might want to read Opening the Dragon Gate:The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard, translated by Thomas Cleary. This biography will give you a very good, though romanticized, view of how all of these various Taoist practices and techniques come together. Even if some parts of the book are hard to believe, it provides a glimpse into a very interesting and tempting world of spirituality. In fact, I think reading a book like this will give you your best look into the motivations and aspirations (even if sometimes misguided) of many people on this board.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[fire]

Thank you,Zhuo Ming-Dao, I will look into these. I appreciate your patience, I suppose it is time for me to open my mind further and experience more before I can pass judgment.

 

I have had a copy of dao de jing since I was in highschool, the rest are still undiscovered by me. I look forward to understanding more.

 

thank you again for your thoughtful explanation. Where can I learn best about Yi mind?

[Josh Young]

Fire,

you are correct

 

endless people forsake what is right there now,

out of desire for something that isn't.

They do this over and over, and then they die.

 

Their concepts and goal vary, but they all look to attain, achieve, gain or reach, thus they cannot grasp what they have.

 

Booze, information/knowledge, appearances, ease of suffering, enlightenment, money, women, salvation, immortality, blood lust, pleasure... in the end they are all the same.

 

But what is futility?

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

I have had a copy of dao de jing since I was in highschool, the rest are still undiscovered by me. I look forward to understanding more.

 

If the Dao De Jing was helpful to you, then you will love Chuang Tzu (who was a like minded contemporary of Lao Tzu). He writes in prose instead of poetry, but his philosophy is quiet wonderful. He elegantly attacks all of our preconceived, relative notions of our life through a series of great little allegoric stories. He profoundly changed my outlook on life after I first read him in collage. Like the Dao De Jing, you learn something new and appreciate him more every time that you come back to the text.

 

The Yi mind can be found throughout most Taoist texts, but sadly, different translators render it differently in most books that I have seen. Will, mind, focus, and so on. In Robert Bruces work, he calls it mobile body awareness, which is the most precise way to put it that I have seen. Basically, if you concentrate on the inside of your finger until you felt the skin, pulse, nerves, etc., that would be your Yi mind. It is a type of movable, one pointed focus. In Taoist thought, the chi follows the yi and the blood follows the chi (which is pronounced yi yi chi, chi yi chi in Chinese ), so you can directly influence your physiology by focusing your awareness on specific parts of it. In acupuncture, the needle replaces the Yi mind.

[z00se]

endless people forsake what is right there now,

out of desire for something that isn't.

They do this over and over, and then they die.

 

Their concepts and goal vary, but they all look to attain, achieve, gain or reach, thus they cannot grasp what they have.

 

 

Booze, information/knowledge, appearances, ease of suffering, enlightenment, money, women, salvation, immortality, blood lust, pleasure... in the end they are all the same.

 

How are all these things the same in the end?

 

We need to have goals, dreams, and things to strive for. If we don't we are too yin and just live in the nothingness until we die. Some great monks might live to 150 years old but how much of it was spend with their eyes closed doing nothing but playing with qi or whatever. I don't think anyone in this forum wants to live in a cave for the rest of their lives so they live in society. Don't you want to have an opportunity to shape this society and be active. If you don't have dreams and goals you have nothing to strive for. Look at the acheivements of western yang society in the past, then look at the developing countries and where do you want to be? Soneone who thinks it doesn't matter about their environment might need to experience some different environments. Sure i accept it's possible to live happily anywhere but some places are good for healthy living and some are not.

 

It might be a dream and hope in peoples minds that everything can be perfect and always happy (something like i hear heaven might be) but the fact is that on Earth it's not always like this. Mother nature is a hard bitch and if you dont' be proactive you will die off. Maybe in dreamworld everyone can live together happily but for the entire history on this earth it's been survival of the fittest. You need to adapt and change to our changing environment to survive, you can't just think you have everything already all day long.

[Marblehead]

Nice post z00se.

 

Indeed, we can have our ideals. But after we open our eyes we need deal with the physical reality we have been placed in.

 

Yes, it would be nice if everyone would share the land. But then, if you don't make that land productive someone will buy it from you, they will make it productive, you will spend the money you got for it then you will be left with nothing.

 

I agree, Nature can be a real bitch sometimes. But most time she is a caring, loving, nurturing sweetheart.

 

Be well!

[Magitek]

Why cant we look at what is in front of us?

 

Cos people watch "the news", believe it and think it applies to them.

[fire]

If the Dao De Jing was helpful to you, then you will love Chuang Tzu (who was a like minded contemporary of Lao Tzu). He writes in prose instead of poetry, but his philosophy is quiet wonderful. He elegantly attacks all of our preconceived, relative notions of our life through a series of great little allegoric stories.

 

 

reading Chuang Tzu now thanks!