Drugs! Turn on, tune in, drop out...

[Lucky7Strikes]

I've noticed that in a few threads this topic has come up: Utilizing drugs for cultivation.

 

Someone notified me the possibility that even the Buddha was using....

 

The Shamans have a long history of using hallucinogens and such for spiritual experiences.

 

At times they can be therapeutic, but other times not so.

 

What ya'll think?

Edited July 24, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Josh Young]

There is no real difference between food, drugs and medicine.

 

Drugs are neither good nor bad, but are a tool.

It is easy to depend on them, to abuse them, or to use them in a constructive manner.

 

However with any drug, medicine or food the active ingredient is the person. Nobody can guarantee a drug will or will not work, much less benefit or fail to benefit a person.

 

 

 

I see that pot was in the title description of the thread.

 

I can say that smoking cannabis was not known to Buddha, though there was a hashish eating tradition. Smoking was virtually unknown in the old world. Too many pot smokers try to justify their habits by claiming they are participating in an age old tradition.

 

I am in favor of legalization of all drugs, but think we need much higher educational standards at the same time.

[Marblehead]

Well, I just a little earlier voiced my opinion on this subject but I will take the time to repeat myself.

 

Drugs and alcohol are not good for anyone. They cause a person to loose control of their brain, lose of control causes a person to do stupid and careless things. Stupidity is personal and causes little harm except to one's self. Carelessness all too often causes harm to others.

 

Yes, there are some things a person can use that causes little harm. But why get an artificial high when you can look into yourself and get a true natural high without using anything to induce the high?

 

Yes Josh, a person can abuse and misuse food as well. That is why there are so many obese perple in the US.

 

Be healthy and clear-minded!

 

Be well!

[Magitek]

[Vajrahridaya]

So buddha could have ate hash?

 

 

No, part of his established vinaya for both lay folk and monks, as in the rules of conduct is not injesting any intoxicant that can impair clarity, which does not include food. Though it's true over eating can impair clarity to some degree and even kill one over time. But, that's not what it means. Any substance that radically effects judgement in any way, seemingly enhanced based upon the chemical or slowed, is seen as something that obscures true and focused practice.

 

Consider also the Precepts concering liquor (and drugs), entertainments, and garlands, scents, and unguents. These are not Puritanical prohibitions in the sense that they are seen to be "bad", as violations of God's rule and decency to the community. Rather, they all have to do with the gratification of desire. Why do we drink or do drugs? To change our perception away from world we normally live in, to another that we think will be more fun. We "drug ourselves" in order to escape the pain of daily life. But, according to Buddhist analysis, does this really help, or is it more like heaping coal on the fire?

 

With that said, there are certain tantric practicioners that partook in various things such as drinks and poisons or drugs, but only to test their steady state of mind or to transcend previous rules to break an established limitation of enlightened perception. Or to better see upon the edge of death the functioning of the body/brain/mind weave.

 

But that also is very different and has it's own context. This second one is all to often abused by practiioners who think they are highly evolved enough to do such things. I am one who has had such delusions so can speak from personal experience. Though everything is worthy of learning of oneself from.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

Letting go of control is good, but in meditation, there is always a reason for the meditation, like trying to heal a specific ailment, or be enlightened .etc, and so it is trying to control and there is a conflict right there.

 

 

Actually it's to see what's really there, deep past the conscious level of mind into the subconscious and unconscious. It's to let go of all conditioned perceptions. All enlightenment means is seeing what all this truly is.

 

There are methods that seem to control or to discipline, but that's only relative and these methods have context within the my first statement.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Nowadays, I happen to think the search is the misery and that there is nothing to attain. So we are just left to loosen up, lighten up and just live how we want. That is my opinion, if you think there is something so great and profound then thats fine with me. I don't know.

 

Letting go of control is good, but in meditation, there is always a reason for the meditation, like trying to heal a specific ailment, or be enlightened .etc, and so it is trying to control and there is a conflict right there.

 

When I used to do hash I just to lie on my bed and it was like I was carried away by an ocean.

Afterwards, there is no come-down, you are perfectly healthy. I can't see the big deal.

 

I wish I just left it at that. But my mistake was getting involved in all this spiritual stuff, and getting interested in enlightenment .etc, and thinking there was more .etc. This is just trying to control things but in a different disguise. Also, I reckon some of those psychedelic gurus have done a great disservice by becoming too preachy the pyschedelics. Theres the people who say Christianity all stems from the mushroom cult. So the cult/spiritual thing I am not into anymore. But if they are healing, then I think thats great. Also mixing them with practices could be a real bad idea.

 

Maybe shamans used to cure serious diseases with entheogens? Esoterically they say worrying, thinking or trying to do something about a disease (mental, physical) just keep it there. Also, it makes no sense repeating and doing things more then once. Forgetting about it is the key. But how can you forget about it when the very exercises you do are meant to cure it? There is a conflict right there.

 

When someone has cut you, medicine is applied. And initially there will be pain during treatment. To be afraid of that pain and to let the cut become infected and deeper, is what fools do. But I promise you that when the cut begins to heal, you will experience an expanding sense of freedom and bliss that is beyond what a little pill can do for you (speaking from personal experience of course )

 

When you say letting go of control, that is a very meaningless statement until you investigate into your nature. How can you let go of anything when you yourself is not sure the subject that is doing the letting go?

 

"Doing what you want" is also a very silly notion when you consider what exactly it is that a person wants.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

When you say letting go of control, that is a very meaningless statement until you investigate into your nature. How can you let go of anything when you yourself is not sure the subject that is doing the letting go?

 

"Doing what you want" is also a very silly notion when you consider what exactly it is that a person wants.

 

Ah... so wise old grasshopper.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Ah... so wise old grasshopper.

 

BAH!!! I do like to pretend!!

[Vajrahridaya]

BAH!!! I do like to pretend!!

 

Whaaatever.

 

[h.uriahr]

Everyone can debate about whether Buddha used any kind of drug/stimulant, etc and the same with Jesus, Mahummad, or God knows whoelse but the fact of the matter is that no one knows whether they did or didnt because no one was alive to witness their life, death, etc etc.

 

Maybe they did, maybe they didnt, who knows. I dont see a problem with using them for positive gain, meaning spiritual experiences whether a shaman or not. Do I use them? No. Have I? Yes. It's been rougly 4 years since I've used any substance but am I against them? Most certainly not, with a few exceptions like heroin and crack of course.

 

Also, this is obviously a dead end discussion, like politics, religion, vegetarianism and others. You are either pro or against, hardly any middle ground in this discussion.

[Sunya]

Cannabis is very safe to the body, not toxic in any way.

 

that's bullshit. cannabis fucks up the subtle channels big time. I know from experience. on a physical level it fucks up the brains dopamine response, creates lethargy and lack of motivation.

 

this is coming from a regular pot smoker of 5 years.. smoking, vaping, eating hash, cooking. i've done it all. vaping is by far the healthiest but pot is still pot. clouds the mind completely, pushes the Qi into the central channel very temporarily but then burns out very fast and the body goes into survival mode (munchies) because of the loss off energy.

 

the reason people love doing it is because pot quiets the discursive mind slightly and gives a feeling of slight bliss (because of the qi in the central channel) but this is only temporary and one has much less clarity and insight. the after-effects are not worth it either.

Edited July 24, 2009 by mikaelz

[Lucky7Strikes]

Whaaatever.

 

 

 

Mikaelz,

 

I have a feeling that many Westerners who start spiritual practices come from a background of some sort of drug use.

 

I guess in that sense it has benefits. I for one learned a lot from ecstasy use...and it wasn't a pleasant learning experience...

[Magitek]

that's bullshit. cannabis fucks up the subtle channels big time. I know from experience. on a physical level it fucks up the brains dopamine response, creates lethargy and lack of motivation.

 

OK. But if you rely on anything to modulate brain chemistry you could run into problems....

 

If you take it very irregularly like once a week or less the story may be different. In fact I hard Terrence McKenna saying this is the best way to do it.

 

Mantra68 mentioned him taking nootropics (smart drugs) as per recommendation from the kunlun master Max himself. Well what happens if you get used to this and then stop taking them? Some of you guys are kunlun people yes? Do you see what I am implying here?

 

this is coming from a regular pot smoker of 5 years.. smoking, vaping, eating hash, cooking. i've done it all. vaping is by far the healthiest but pot is still pot. clouds the mind completely, pushes the Qi into the central channel very temporarily but then burns out very fast and the body goes into survival mode (munchies) because of the loss off energy.

 

Did it longer then me. I went through a period of smoking all day everyday, particularly when I had some physical pain, but I went back to once/twice per week which I preferred, makes sense to keep the sensitivity high. But that finished ages ago for various reasons, but in a free society I'd eat some hash right now as I've got nothing better to do.

 

Yeah bcause extacy is hard on the body because its an amphetamine analogue.

 

Well haven't took it. But from what I heard it is TAXING on the body as it is an amphetamine analogue, and there is always a downer the next day. My friend used to tell me about it. He also talked about how his dick would shrink when on extacy.

 

[BrainDance]

 

Mikaelz,

 

I have a feeling that many Westerners who start spiritual practices come from a background of some sort of drug use.

 

I guess in that sense it has benefits. I for one learned a lot from ecstasy use...and it wasn't a pleasant learning experience...

 

This is probably often the case, not always but I'm sure it's happened many times.

 

Just putting this out there, if a person takes LSD, and the resulting experience triggers a sort of latent spirituality in them they didn't think they had. The person goes on to find themselves, it would appear that the drug was the catalyst for this, so wouldn't then the experience at least be a "good" thing?

 

And not all psychoactive drugs cloud the mind, (although I know for this discussion we're mostly talking about so called "intoxicants.") Piracetam for example, is a nootropic that helps with memory and all that, it has the opposite effect and it appears to be pretty benign and nontoxic. At the end of the day though it's still your own thoughts. The thoughts and experiences someone has on an acid trip weren't inside the couple hundred micrograms of powder, it didn't create them, they were there all along.

[Magitek]

Yeah wondering through the desert and eating some cactus is different then taking prosac lol.

 

I prefer the word entheogens to "drugs". Drugs are what the sleazy medical bigots give you. Entheogens are our heritage and our bodies can deal with them very well.

 

The pharmaco-medical system are imposters, lets drive them out .

Edited July 24, 2009 by Magitek

[BrainDance]

Entheogens are our heritage and our bodies can deal with them very well.

 

Our bodies don't deal with atropine or scopalamine very well at all, just throwing that out there. Datura inoxia is mostly likely not going to be your friend, natural isn't always better. If any genus of plants could be called evil (not saying any plant is evil, I'm just using that as a hypothetical) it would be the nightshades. There have been some horrible deaths linked to those plants, especially if you consider all the tobacco deaths. Then again eggplants and tomatoes are some of my favorite foods, and some people have apperantly gotten some insight from the deleriant state nightshades bring out, those that didn't die in the process.

 

Of course, a lot of the "magic" in natural psychedelics comes from their complex mixture of different alkaloids, something man hasn't yet been able to truly replicate. That's why marinol just doesn't work like weed, it's not nearly as effective. The reason is, marijuana is full of a massive number of strange and not very well known cannabinoids. That's why different strains have drastically different effects. You have the "main psychoactive" THC, but THC on it's own seems to cause a lot of problems and anxiety in people. Then you have CBD, which on it's own doesn't seem active, but combined with THC it somehow does, and hundreds (if not more) other "minor" alkaloids. It just wouldn't be that easy for mankind to recreate that, and even if we could why bother? Nature has already done a great job of it.

[Magitek]

Our bodies don't deal with atropine or scopalamine very well at all, just throwing that out there. Datura inoxia is mostly likely not going to be your friend, natural isn't always better. If any genus of plants could be called evil (not saying any plant is evil, I'm just using that as a hypothetical) it would be the nightshades. There have been some horrible deaths linked to those plants, especially if you consider all the tobacco deaths. Then again eggplants and tomatoes are some of my favorite foods, and some people have apperantly gotten some insight from the deleriant state nightshades bring out, those that didn't die in the process.

 

Of course, a lot of the "magic" in natural psychedelics comes from their complex mixture of different alkaloids, something man hasn't yet been able to truly replicate. That's why marinol just doesn't work like weed, it's not nearly as effective. The reason is, marijuana is full of a massive number of strange and not very well known cannabinoids. That's why different strains have drastically different effects. You have the "main psychoactive" THC, but THC on it's own seems to cause a lot of problems and anxiety in people. Then you have CBD, which on it's own doesn't seem active, but combined with THC it somehow does, and hundreds (if not more) other "minor" alkaloids. It just wouldn't be that easy for mankind to recreate that, and even if we could why bother? Nature has already done a great job of it.

 

Yes, good. My point I want to get across, is that it is ridiculous that a plant has been outlawed and has been given the death sentence if found.

 

You have made a good illustration of natural intelligence. The silly people making synthetic THC shows a false intelligence.

[findley]

I think that drugs, particularly psychedlic drugs, are perhaps the best 'external alchemy' one could ever experiment with. (emphasize: experiment)

 

-Alot healthier than eating lead, anyways

 

They have introduced me to a wider array of psychic experience, (good or bad,) and have taught, (and are teaching,) me valuable lessons.

[Sunya]

I think that drugs, particularly psychedlic drugs, are perhaps the best 'external alchemy' one could ever experiment with. (emphasize: experiment)

 

-Alot healthier than eating lead, anyways

 

They have introduced me to a wider array of psychic experience, (good or bad,) and have taught, (and are teaching,) me valuable lessons.

 

 

for anyone questioning whether drugs' insights will leave you balanced or not can just search findley's posts, especially this one : http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry129915

 

 

Mikaelz,

 

I have a feeling that many Westerners who start spiritual practices come from a background of some sort of drug use.

 

I guess in that sense it has benefits. I for one learned a lot from ecstasy use...and it wasn't a pleasant learning experience...

 

and i'm no different! i've done em all.. except heroine. I did mescaline (cactus), LSD, and mushrooms... smoked pot for years.. tried extasy, did amphetamines too. pot got me interested in interesting stuff, and psychedelics made me understand mental suffering. but as Alan Watts said: once you get the message, hang up.

 

we all have different karma because of different past experiences, circumstances, personalities, etc. we all come to the path through different means. but I just want to make it clear that drugs will only take you so far... say your goal was to meet a nice girl, get to know her, learn about women and maybe even get married. so you meet a girl, and she takes you on a wild ride in her car.... you get to know her, have a really amazing time, learn a thing or two, but then she dumps you at the side of the road, throws her number written on a crumpled piece of napkin paper that falls into a puddle, and screeches away while singing along to 'Welcome to the Jungle'. you have to walk back to your car, in the rain, all while thinking 'wow.. that was amazing while it lasted,,, but here I am walking in the rain and this sucks. I did learn a thing or two but everything happened so fast that i'm forgetting what exactly happened..and I know theres more to learn......and now I have fucking Guns n Roses stuck in my head"

Edited July 25, 2009 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

but as Alan Watts said: once you get the message, hang up.

 

Yup, that's a good one!

[contrivedname!]

for anyone questioning whether drugs' insights will leave you balanced or not can just search findley's posts, especially this one : http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry129915

uhh why the need for the "ad hom" he was just stating his opinion and wasnt even adressing you.

 

and i'm no different! i've done em all.. except heroine. I did mescaline (cactus), LSD, and mushrooms... smoked pot for years.. tried extasy, did amphetamines too. pot got me interested in interesting stuff, and psychedelics made me understand mental suffering. but as Alan Watts said: once you get the message, hang up.

 

uhh no you havent. there are sooo many different psychoactive chemicals, both natural and synthetic, anyone making this statement is really overshooting the mark.

 

 

we all have different karma because of different past experiences, circumstances, personalities, etc. we all come to the path through different means. but I just want to make it clear that drugs will only take you so far... say your goal was to meet a nice girl, get to know her, learn about women and maybe even get married. so you meet a girl, and she takes you on a wild ride in her car.... you get to know her, have a really amazing time, learn a thing or two, but then she dumps you at the side of the road, throws her number written on a crumpled piece of napkin paper that falls into a puddle, and screeches away while singing along to 'Welcome to the Jungle'. you have to walk back to your car, in the rain, all while thinking 'wow.. that was amazing while it lasted,,, but here I am walking in the rain and this sucks. I did learn a thing or two but everything happened so fast that i'm forgetting what exactly happened..and I know theres more to learn......and now I have fucking Guns n Roses stuck in my head"

 

if you want to retain any benefit from said experience it requires awareness and discipline (two things many people claim "drugs" diminish... if an external source can so easily diminish your awareness and discipline in such a way, maybe you should question your self?)

 

no middle ground in this topic? i think there is and it can be summed up by Titus Lucretius Carus' quote:

"What may be food to one, may be poison to another". if you think all "drugs" do is bad things, then by all means dont do them. If you find them to be a useful tool then i'm not stoppin' ya. i think it is equally erroneous to say that "drugs are all bad" as it is to say that "drugs are the answer to everything". two extremes. i think it is more accurate to say that some individuals simply fuck themselves up on drugs while on the other hand some individuals actually obtain some benefit, etc. from the experiences.

 

i think one of the important pointes here is the individual, not the drug (on a side note: i feel people are too ready in our society to blame the drug(s) for their poor circumstances, experiences, etc., as opposed to taking personal accountability for their actions, i.e. it is/was their choice to ingest said substances) whatever type it may be.

 

Braindance was right on imo with

" At the end of the day though it's still your own thoughts. The thoughts and experiences someone has on an acid trip weren't inside the couple hundred micrograms of powder, it didn't create them, they were there all along." and i would add that sometimes these thoughts may have been "inaccessible" before because they were buried in the individuals subconscious. could they have reached their subconscious through meditation or another similar practice? sure probably, but with some folks it may catalyze an interest in spirituality, working though their attatchments, etc.

 

and to echo uriahr, of course we neither can or cannot say whether these historic spiritual individuals used substances or not (unless someone here is claiming reincarnation status on one of those gurus ). though with the buddha's supposed upbringing i wouldnt doubt it...

 

one last time for good measure, UMPH!! (kicks the dead horse)

[Josh Young]

Why are people conflating drugs with intoxicants?

 

For those who say drugs are bad, look into the long term studies of Ayahuasca and peyote. I would classify neither of these as intoxicants.

They have been shown to be safe and health promoting in specific studies.

 

People who used them regularly in a spiritual setting (NAC and UDV) scored happier, healthier and smarter than average. Many of them reported being free of mental illness that they used to have.

 

The idea drugs are bad is as ignorant as the idea that drugs are good.

 

Cannabis is not considered an intoxicant by many. There is a tradition that buddha ate the plant, not hash, but a single leaf or seed a day, depending on the version. I doubt very much a form of intoxication was involved.

 

Even in vedic traditions where intoxication is considered vile, there is a tradition of use of psychoactives among some groups. Having an experience is not the same as being "messed up"

 

Depending upon a drug for your spirituality... ok that is a bankrupt method for sure. However drug like states can be had without drugs, meditation is a common way to achieve many of the same experiences that can be had with drugs, only with meditation it is better, but even that can be abused and can harm a person when and if they start to delude themselves.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

There is no real difference between food, drugs and medicine.

 

Drugs are neither good nor bad, but are a tool.

It is easy to depend on them, to abuse them, or to use them in a constructive manner.

 

However with any drug, medicine or food the active ingredient is the person. Nobody can guarantee a drug will or will not work, much less benefit or fail to benefit a person.

I see that pot was in the title description of the thread.

 

I can say that smoking cannabis was not known to Buddha, though there was a hashish eating tradition. Smoking was virtually unknown in the old world. Too many pot smokers try to justify their habits by claiming they are participating in an age old tradition.

 

I am in favor of legalization of all drugs, but think we need much higher educational standards at the same time.

 

Couldn't have said it better.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

There is no real difference between food, drugs and medicine.

 

Drugs are neither good nor bad, but are a tool.

It is easy to depend on them, to abuse them, or to use them in a constructive manner.

 

However with any drug, medicine or food the active ingredient is the person. Nobody can guarantee a drug will or will not work, much less benefit or fail to benefit a person.

I see that pot was in the title description of the thread.

 

I can say that smoking cannabis was not known to Buddha, though there was a hashish eating tradition. Smoking was virtually unknown in the old world. Too many pot smokers try to justify their habits by claiming they are participating in an age old tradition.

 

I am in favor of legalization of all drugs, but think we need much higher educational standards at the same time.

 

Couldn't have said it better.