Drugs! Turn on, tune in, drop out...

[Vajrahridaya]

Why are people conflating drugs with intoxicants?

 

For those who say drugs are bad, look into the long term studies of Ayahuasca and peyote. I would classify neither of these as intoxicants.

They have been shown to be safe and health promoting in specific studies.

 

People who used them regularly in a spiritual setting (NAC and UDV) scored happier, healthier and smarter than average. Many of them reported being free of mental illness that they used to have.

 

The idea drugs are bad is as ignorant as the idea that drugs are good.

 

Cannabis is not considered an intoxicant by many. There is a tradition that buddha ate the plant, not hash, but a single leaf or seed a day, depending on the version. I doubt very much a form of intoxication was involved.

 

Even in vedic traditions where intoxication is considered vile, there is a tradition of use of psychoactives among some groups. Having an experience is not the same as being "messed up"

 

Depending upon a drug for your spirituality... ok that is a bankrupt method for sure. However drug like states can be had without drugs, meditation is a common way to achieve many of the same experiences that can be had with drugs, only with meditation it is better, but even that can be abused and can harm a person when and if they start to delude themselves.

 

Yes, I can dig this. Good and wise, well informed answer. Not sure if the Buddha did that, but why not? It's a green leafy thing that grows wild and frequently in India. I have plenty of friends who have transformed their lives through peyote and I-owaska. I've taken Peyote myself in a ceremonial setting in Massachussetts. With a fire ceremony in a native style hut. It was really powerful and completely equal to some of my kundalini experiences during meditation, deep spontaneous pranayama and energy going into my centeral channel, spontaneous bliss and wisdom with clarity and strength, alertness, calmness, self control or self freedom, free sense of expression, lucidity of consciousness, clarity of singing voice, spontaneous poetry, etc. It was very positive and no come downs afterwards.

 

Environment and intention are key though, both internally and externally I feel. Plus those two so called "drugs" or "potent chemicals" are alkaline and thus very cleansing!

Edited July 25, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[contrivedname!]

Why are people conflating drugs with intoxicants?

 

For those who say drugs are bad, look into the long term studies of Ayahuasca and peyote. I would classify neither of these as intoxicants.

They have been shown to be safe and health promoting in specific studies.

 

People who used them regularly in a spiritual setting (NAC and UDV) scored happier, healthier and smarter than average. Many of them reported being free of mental illness that they used to have.

 

The idea drugs are bad is as ignorant as the idea that drugs are good.

 

Cannabis is not considered an intoxicant by many. There is a tradition that buddha ate the plant, not hash, but a single leaf or seed a day, depending on the version. I doubt very much a form of intoxication was involved.

 

Even in vedic traditions where intoxication is considered vile, there is a tradition of use of psychoactives among some groups. Having an experience is not the same as being "messed up"

 

Depending upon a drug for your spirituality... ok that is a bankrupt method for sure. However drug like states can be had without drugs, meditation is a common way to achieve many of the same experiences that can be had with drugs, only with meditation it is better, but even that can be abused and can harm a person when and if they start to delude themselves.

 

thanks for differentiating, good points, and i feel my post may have conflated the two too much. i tend to get a bit frustrated when folks group things like meth, heroin, crack, pharmaceuticals, etc. with substances such as peyote, mushrooms, etc. and i just sort of did it myself. i was mainly addressing "psychadellics" and not so much the others.

[seadog]

Actually it's to see what's really there, deep past the conscious level of mind into the subconscious and unconscious. It's to let go of all conditioned perceptions. All enlightenment means is seeing what all this truly is.

 

There are methods that seem to control or to discipline, but that's only relative and these methods have context within the my first statement.

Thats one of the funniest things I have read in ages thanks

[Josh Young]

Environment and intention are key though, both internally and externally I feel.

I am very much in agreement with you here.

 

I know it is possible to have intention and environment negatively influence what would have otherwise been highly productive.

 

It is the government propaganda that tells us that pot and crack and peyote and heroin and meth are all in the same group. Yet if you consider the impact of things, if you take any one of these aforementioned illegal drugs and spend a night intoxicated on them, you will not end up as harmed as if you did the same thing for a single night with alcohol. That is to say that the legal drug of alcohol is more harmful than most of the illegal drugs. Clearly the laws are not concerned with harm reduction.

 

And I know of benefits from peyote and ay'huasca that lead me to believe that some illegal drugs are capable of enriching peoples lives with lasting effects from a single experience. For example both of these substances have been shown to be effective at treating alcoholism in at least some cases and contexts.

 

That is not to say I think drugs are something people should do in general.

 

Still I am using drugs right now; I am drinking yerba mate, a caffeine and theobromine containing beverage from South America. I am also on an antibiotic for treating a tooth infection.

 

If there is one drug ethic I oppose it is the one where people seek to get "*&%@ed up" Impairing judgment and coordination rarely if ever yields personal benefits. For me this is the definition of intoxication and it can be had even without drugs. Many things can intoxicate, music and television, power,conviction to belief, the unrestrained ramblings of an untrained mind, etc.

[Magitek]

I was reading about the drugs they used for MKULTRA and cannabis doesn't work for mind-control! In fact it has the opposite effect.

 

:)

[contrivedname!]

... and if Terrance McKenna is to be believed (the source i read this bit of info in), some gov't agencies thought LSD would be a good mind controlling agent; it was swiftly placed on the highest illegal drug 'schedule' when the opposite was found to be true.

 

and in the case of efficacy in treating alcoholism i would posit that the individual needs to be pretty self aware and willing to dig into the roots subconscious fixation on said substance and the emotions and compulsions surrounding it. in a case such as this i believe they can be very effective.

[Magitek]

I was reading Terrence McKenna and he went off LSD near the end..... He never said why exactly.

 

I just don't get a good feeling about it....... There was a time when I really wanted to take it but couldn't get hold of it... I think the universe was doing me a favour.....

[King Kabalabhati]

I don't think one should entirely trust anyone regarding the effects of cannabis on your brain.

 

As a Rastaman, ganja is a daily ritual for me. I feel it is a blessing from the Most High, one could also call it a gift from the Tao. Of course it's possible to misuse it. That's when you don't bless the herb and don't prepare it to purify your dwelling place and sanctify your mind. Without firm direction, discipline and a sense of trust for the Almighty powers you may get very confused with any "medicine".

 

I find that even if I smoke a joint in the morning, and maybe another one in the afternoon, I can still have good concentration and energy for the duration of the day. I don't think I get any more energy from it, rather I feel more sensitive for my energies. I do meditation both with and without cannabis and they're both good, although with cannabis it's easier to concentrate in more stressfull environments (such as my noisy home).

 

There may come a time to step forward and leave all "external" sources of inspiration and assistance behind.. But that time has not yet arrived.

[Marblehead]

There may come a time to step forward and leave all "external" sources of inspiration and assistance behind.. But that time has not yet arrived.

 

I don't often speak of goals in life but I will suggest that the above would be one that would be very worthwhile.

 

Be well!

[everseeking]

Magitek--

 

I love your pasts. I'd like to share some thoughts.

 

[/b]Cannabis is very safe to the body, not toxic in any way. And we still got the reefer madness thing going on. I was watching a documentry about Jack Herer, the emporer of hemp, about how useful the cannabis plant is (food, materials, fuel, medicine), and how it could save the earth. Interesting stuff.

 

Not necessarily true--the buds, I believe can be irritating to the digestive tract if eaten raw. Any repeated irritation could cause problems. That said, I once read that Bruce Lee ate hash quite often. Maybe it kiled him! He got so high his spirit floated away! Probably not.

 

Also, more specifically, when you smoke it, it is bad for you. Benzopyrene is produced whenever you burn (as far as I know) pretty much any organic compound-whether its a steak you char on the grill, or buds you smoke. They are carcinogenic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzopyrene There are natural carcinogens as well as man made ones.

 

 

I used to research drugs and I concluded that the so-called entheogens were the only safe ones. Not addictive, not toxic, take it once, then you can be done with it. Do it again if you want, don't do it if you don't want to.

 

They aren't safe for people who have a family history of mental illness, it can sometimes bring about these previously dormant or latent problems. To put it in my own word, not everyone can handle 10+ grams of shrooms. I did. As for the toxicity issue, its not that simple. Addiction--opium? In general I agree with you here, but I have to 'play the devils advocate' so to speak.

 

If they were legal I can imagine a few idiots using them irresponsably. Like doing mushrooms on a roller coaster .etc. But why should a couple of idiots ruin it for the normal people?

 

Doing shrooms on a roller coaster sounds like a lot of fun. It would be the one operating the roller coaster that I would be more worried about!

 

The thing I think is great about using them is that they work quickly. You have to spend a long time meditating to get the mystical experiences. Focusing the mind, fasting .etc to produces the chemicals. But it is torturous.

 

But if you cant experience it without a substance you have to imbibe, then you dont really have it--you just have a glimpse. Dont you agree?

 

 

I figured it was all about letting go. And if you have any petty existential problems they soon dissapear after taking hash and can stay gone afterwards.

 

Real problems cant be gotten rid of by getting high-just avoided, IMO. I was a much worse procrastinator when I smoked pot.

 

When I used to do hash I just to lie on my bed and it was like I was carried away by an ocean.

Afterwards, there is no come-down, you are perfectly healthy. I can't see the big deal.

 

I know exactly what you mean. I suppose its like going off to meditate in a cave--its therapeutic to do a little bit of, but not when you do it so much that you dont live your life-in reality.

 

Just food for thought. Oh yeah and I think alcohol sucks big time.

 

Me too.

 

I prefer the word entheogens to "drugs". Drugs are what the sleazy medical bigots give you. Entheogens are our heritage and our bodies can deal with them very well.

 

I agree. Some 'entheogens' are VERY powerful, more powerful than 'drugs'. Also, I for one dont want to cast out the medical people. I doubt a shaman will ever be able to sew your arm back on should you get it chopped off somehow.

 

Yes, good. My point I want to get across, is that it is ridiculous that a plant has been outlawed and has been given the death sentence if found.

 

Very absurd, isn't it? And even so, of all the plants to make illegal, pot is pretty damn harmless over all. Thanks Nixon, you jackass!

 

 

I was reading about the drugs they used for MKULTRA and cannabis doesn't work for mind-control! In fact it has the opposite effect.

 

Did you know, that there were studies done during the Nixon administration, which confirmed what you say? That is when/why pot was really hunted after by the government. I bet you that alcohol doesn't inhibit mind control.

 

 

(about LSD)

I just don't get a good feeling about it....... There was a time when I really wanted to take it but couldn't get hold of it... I think the universe was doing me a favour.....

 

Exact same thing happened to me! Better to stick with shrooms, I say.

Pot, and THC specifically, binds to anandamide receptors in the brain. This neurotransmitter/hormone is involved in the hunger/satiety mechanism. I've talked to so many people who (uninformed) tell me shit like-'Your brain has THC receptors in it, we were meant to get high", etc. Well, its utter bullshit. Our brains also have carbon monoxide receptors--does that mean we were all meant to suffocate? My point is, when you study the science of brain chemistry, and learn how and 'why' these plants contain substances which have a profound effect on us, it comes down to a much simpler answer. Genetics and evolution. Chemistry. All I'm saying is this--if you want to get high, get high-but be honest with yourself. Don't fool yourself into believing that you are getting stoned in order to become enlightened, or to learn some truth, just say-"I'm gonna get high". Otherwise, you lie to yourself, or believe in lies, and where does that leave you? Arguably worse off than when you only believe the lies that society tells us-because when you lie to yourself, you distort your perception of truth and reality. It's like de-evolving. The best thing these drugs can do is allow you to have an experience which changes your perspective, and allows you to grow in new directions--when sober. IMO, they can be a great too, but you still have to do the work.

 

"Even truth is to be relinquished, to say nothing of untruth"

-Takuan Soho, from 'The Unfettered Mind'.

 

 

 

 

Take care man, I was just giving back some food for thought, no harm intended.

 

N-

[October Gray]

For the most part, I'd say I have to agree with King Kabalabhati. I've tried drugs that have been good for my meditation, and others that have not.

 

At the same time, I'm as hard headed as it gets, and a lot of the time I get a strong feel I have to figure things out on my own without aid or guide from such things. Otherwise, the result isn't my own finding and it's not as pleasant.

 

For me, it feels like I got an A in school, but someone whispered the answers to me. I've achieved something, but the learning experience was false.

[Old Man Contradiction]

For hallucinogens to help, the user must already have some degree of presence in them. Otherwise, these drugs tend to perpetuate mind stuff, creating more obstacles to realizing your self.

 

I say this because I used to eat drugs a lot. At first, the harsh destruction of my ability to think showed me the impermanence of matter (which was not holding together so good at the time of my acidic inebriation), exposed my pure unlabeled fear, and forced me into the miracle of the present moment, unique in every second.

 

The thing is, I had tripped roughly 30 times or so before I had this explosive experience, before then I was just getting high. From then on out, without guidance, seeked out this experience... Creating more and more attachments. I was now in the mind, looking and looking, going farther and farther from enlightenment. I developed an obsession with quantum physics and extra dimensions.... just going further away in the mind, farther and farther away from enlightenment. Eventually my trips became dull and psychosis and schizophrenia slowly crept in, soon to be the predominate theme of every trip. Eventually, I hit a mental rock bottom. I started looking for a sober alternative to quantum exploration, unfortunately I found NLP. This helped a tiny bit. Soon I practiced some of Ram Dass' yogic stuff. After a few months I found Spring Forest Qigong. Undisciplined, I practiced for a month or two with good results, my mind was improving slightly and gradually. Then I went over to Mantak Chia, practiced for a few months. Saw tiny results, and I believe only because the visualizations took me away from my ego and into mind-made sensations in the body. Then, eventually I became interested in Taiji. I found a teacher who taught Taiji. This was highly effective at indirectly quieting my mind and improving my health. Later I discovered he is teaching me Taiji, but through the principles of Yichuan. I practice for many months until I run out of money but continue practicing for a year. I read Eckhart Tolle's A New Earth. Every thing starts coming together. Now I am back and practicing the internal martial arts with this very very good teacher. I am doing great, I still have residual damage from my drug experimentation and traumatic experiences, but nothing compared to the past. My presence is growing in frequency and duration, so I know that things are going well. Enlightenment here I come! woohoo

 

In summary, drugs ultimately led me to the path, but also derailed and punished me for quite a long time. They could have been beneficial at the beginning if I had been able to place my finger on the key, which I now understand as the here and now. A teacher would have quickened the process, or maybe just reading Eckhart Tolle.

 

Like everything else in the Universe, from the ego it is a delusion. But in our presence, it is truth.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

I have never feared the fact that I might sometimes repeat myself so here goes:

 

Leave the shit alone.

 

Be well!

[King Kabalabhati]

Hi All,

 

I have never feared the fact that I might sometimes repeat myself so here goes:

 

Leave the shit alone.

 

Be well!

 

Or at least add some calamus root to dispel the toxic effects of psychedelics (ayurvedic information).

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

mm4Gkz-bu_Q&NR=1&feature=fvwp

.






Yeah, like I need to explore that again.












. Edited August 8, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Old Man Contradiction]

mm4Gkz-bu_Q&NR=1&feature=fvwp

.

Yeah, like I need to explore that again.

.

 

going to school, trying to fit in, TV all day, movies all night.....

 

maybe I missed something?

 

maN9MjfRadM

[Magitek]

Thanks for reading my posts Everseeking.

 

This is such a complex topic for those who need an authority outside of themselves. But really it is simple.

 

I see a lot of extemist attitudes. Like you get Timothy Leary at one end and the witch hunters on the other.

 

You made valid points and I could add this or that factoid but I won't. I don't care to educate anyone. I don't even believe my own rhetoric anymore.

 

At the end of the day it is just about getting high, I agree. Going on a rollercoaster is about the thrill. Relationships can be an emotional roller coaster..... All sensual.... we can at least be honest about that.

 

My intention is to show how absurd it is to be anti-drug yet chase bliss states.

 

Now, I am not saying this is good or bad. I am not for or against. And I am not saying I have found a higher path or I know better.

 

People do what they want anyway.

 

Old Man Contradiction thanks for your experiences.

 

Yeah you pay for what you do. Who knows, maybe you'll pay for listening to E. Tolle too?

 

 

 

 

BTW drugs really don't interest me anymore.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Magitek

[Old Man Contradiction]

This is such a complex topic for those who need an authority outside of themselves. But really it is simple.

 

I see a lot of extemist attitudes. Like you get Timothy Leary at one end and the witch hunters on the other.

 

......

 

Old Man Contradiction thanks for your experiences.

 

Yeah you pay for what you do. Who knows, maybe you'll pay for listening to E. Tolle too?

BTW drugs really don't interest me anymore.

 

You are right, it is very very simple.

 

To my mind, labeling a drug as good or bad doesn't matter at all. People have been hurt by them, shamans grow up and love the world beside them, and they can have no effect on the enlightened yogi (see Remember, Be Here Now by Ram Dass). So, it doesn't matter. As you said, people do what they want. That is there path, and there way. We are not special, they are.

 

Man, I already have paid for listening to E.Tolle, and misinterpreting his words. Accept the present moment doesn't mean "put up with a painful life situation because you need to learn to accept it".

 

anyway, drugs don't interest me anymore either.

[Magitek]

Hmmm, how I am supposed to understand that? They are special? I don't see anyone as special. I used to listen to Tolle, Barry Long, Vernon Howard .etc but at some point it just seemed so absurd, "what am I doing?".

[Marblehead]

Very important concept, I think:

 

Accept the present moment doesn't mean "put up with a painful life situation because you need to learn to accept it".

 

Be well!

[Old Man Contradiction]

Hmmm, how I am supposed to understand that? They are special? I don't see anyone as special. I used to listen to Tolle, Barry Long, Vernon Howard .etc but at some point it just seemed so absurd, "what am I doing?".

 

It was just a joke, hence the

 

 

About Tolle's lessons:

It seemed absurd because it seemed like you weren't doing anything? I don't know what to tell you. Is it required that you do something to awaken your enlightenment?

 

What do you want out of life?

Edited August 9, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Magitek]

It was just a joke, hence the

About Tolle's lessons:

It seemed absurd because it seemed like you weren't doing anything? I don't know what to tell you. Is it required that you do something to awaken your enlightenment?

 

What do you want out of life?

 

LOL just testing you man.

[Old Man Contradiction]

LOL just testing you man.

 

damn you Magitek

 

 

 

 

 

<-- the "I peed my pants" face

 

and by the way, the reason I asked about what you wanted is because some times it's easy to forget that not everyone wants enlightenment.

 

see you all later

Edited August 10, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[King Kabalabhati]

Curiously enough, once I started doing Tao Yin exercise coupled with Inner Smile, I have experienced less and less desire to smoke marijuana. All summer long I've smoked daily, now all of a sudden it's my second smokeless day in a row and the thought of quitting altogether, except maybe for occasional ceremonial (incense) and medicinal (nausea, heavy flu) use, is firmly planted in my mind.

 

I understand this is because I've been smiling lovingly to my liver and inhaling golden light into my lungs.. I love my organs now, and I've been comforting them and giving promises of no more abuse, not even slight, because if they feel rejected, I'm gonna feel rejected too.

 

Now I feel a bit stupid to take in anything even mildly toxic, such as ganja. The same thing applies to coffee, which used to be my every-other-day kid of habit. I cannot be certain about how I'm gonna feel in the future, but now I feel solid and determined. Ayurveda states that adding calamus root to marijuana completely neutralizes its toxic effects, so if I do smoke one day, it will be in the mix.

 

I want to state that these exercises can be transforming and extremely healthy. Giving conscious love to your heart and other organs can create a new kind of compassion towards your entire earthly being. Imagine, you can comfort your own heart and need no one or nothing to do it for you. This is a gift from the Dao. I Give thanks.

[Magitek]

damn you Magitek

<-- the "I peed my pants" face

 

and by the way, the reason I asked about what you wanted is because some times it's easy to forget that not everyone wants enlightenment.

 

see you all later

 

LOL yeah I know what you mean.....

 

Speaking to normal people I often forget.

 

People do truly do seem enchanted by the prospects of career, wife, kids .etc. How wierd is that!!

 

I see it all as a shell. To actually believe there is anything in all that, how miserable would that make you?!