How to avoid suffering when experiencing physical pain

[YawningMind]

This ability will help one conquer themselves, I think, so hopefully it is useful to Taoist practitioners on here. Hopefully there is someone here who can explain it better than I can. At first, it will take a lot of concentration, but it will become easier as you get more practice.

 

First, relax the spot that is in pain. Let go of all the tension in it, and let the pain fill your mind. Face the pain in your mind, and feel how it is something that is not necessarily good or bad. Look at every aspect of the pain and see how there is nothing inherently negative in it upon deep examination. Finally, clear your mind of the feeling of the body part that is in pain. Sit and forget!

 

 

If it doesn't work for you, then I probably explained it poorly. Someone help me explain it please!

 

 

Either way please comment!!

Edited July 28, 2009 by YawningMind

[Moonbar]

sounds very interesting,

 

For me about 20 mins in half lotus after which the pain comes in my knees & ankles the pain is such that it prevents me from practicing any longer.

 

My toes also begin to go numb & i lose the feeling in them I wonder if ignoring this & continuing is a good idea?

 

Any comments?

[YawningMind]

sounds very interesting,

 

For me about 20 mins in half lotus after which the pain comes in my knees & ankles the pain is such that it prevents me from practicing any longer.

 

My toes also begin to go numb & i lose the feeling in them I wonder if ignoring this & continuing is a good idea?

 

Any comments?

 

It probably isn't a good idea. When your body is feeling pain it's usually trying to tell you something. If you can't avoid the pain then it's one thing to ignore it (like if you stubbed your toe and are using the technique I posted to lessen the discomfort), but if you can avoid it, it might not be smart to seek it since you could end up hurting yourself. Even the sages in Zhuangzi wanted to keep their bodies whole.

 

I'm very new here and my opinion may differ from the majority here, but I don't believe in taking unnaturally contorted poses in order to meditate. When I feel like meditating, I just sit or lay down in a comfortable pose and clear my mind; I don't try to twist my body into a position it doesn't want to go in. Also I mostly do "sitting and forgetting" meditation where I clear my mind; I don't do breathing meditation as much. Hopefully I'm not doing anything wrong, heheh.

 

Thanks for commenting, and good luck with your meditation!

Edited July 28, 2009 by YawningMind

[Marblehead]

Excellent subject YawningMind.

 

Pain and suffering. Pain is physical, suffering is mental.

 

Pain is good. Okay, hold on. Let me explain.

 

Pain is an idicator that there is something worng with the body. Pain allows us to become aware that there is something wrong so that we can take action to correct what is wrong. From this point I will agree with you in what you said in your initial post regarding the reduction of percieved pain (pain tolerance) so that it will not cause suffering.

 

Suffering, on the other hand is a result of our feeling sorry for ourself for being in pain. If we understand that pain is good there is no reason to suffer. Sure, you will still have the pain. Hehehe. But there are ways to reduce the pain even if one needs to use medications to do it.

 

Be well!

[YawningMind]

Suffering, on the other hand is a result of our feeling sorry for ourself for being in pain.

It might be a little more complicated than that. Let's say you close your mouth and wrinkle your nose (or close it with your fingers) so you can't breathe. Try sitting like that for a few minutes. You will want to open your mouth because you are suffering from lack of air. I don't think simply analyzing it is enough in this case. In order to defeat this sensation, you have to completely clear your mind and accept the state of suffering you experience It's a little harder than conquering most kinds of physical pain in my opinion, though personally I got a little spooked and took a breath anyways after I managed to conquer this one. Just because I don't actually want to suffocate myself.

 

 

 

If we understand that pain is good there is no reason to suffer.

Sure, but the suffering still exists after merely realizing. We still have to look into it more to try and rid ourselves of it.

 

 

 

Sure, you will still have the pain. Hehehe. But there are ways to reduce the pain even if one needs to use medications to do it.

If your mind can conquer itself, then it is a lot better than medication. No side effects, no withdrawal, no medical bills. Of course it is a lot harder, but that is why I brought it up.

 

 

 

Thanks for commenting!

[Ya Mu]

Marblehead has the right of it with the "pain is good" as it lets us know when something is wrong.

I also agree with the OP in that if it hurts to get into a certain position, try to find one that doesn't.

 

I do not believe that we should ignore pain. I believe we should seek assistance from qualified healers to help us. Sometimes, however, it is simply a matter of perspective. I think the key is to not indulge in the pain. Here is an example of perspective: One morning I woke up in a lot of pain and couldn't seem to get past it. I HAD to take the garbage out. After I had taken the garbage down to the pickup area, all the while muttering to myself how much I hurt and why did I HAVE to take the garbage out it suddenly dawned on me that it is NOT HAVING to take the garbage out. Instead it is WOW I GET to take the garbage out. At this realization I no longer had near the intensity of pain.

 

My suggestion is if one has pain first seek help then focus on NOW while practicing energetics.

[Marblehead]

It might be a little more complicated than that. Let's say you close your mouth and wrinkle your nose (or close it with your fingers) so you can't breathe. Try sitting like that for a few minutes. You will want to open your mouth because you are suffering from lack of air. I don't think simply analyzing it is enough in this case. In order to defeat this sensation, you have to completely clear your mind and accept the state of suffering you experience It's a little harder than conquering most kinds of physical pain in my opinion, though personally I got a little spooked and took a breath anyways after I managed to conquer this one. Just because I don't actually want to suffocate myself.

 

In your above example there is only pain, no suffering. You have tried to prevent natural operations of your body - there is something wrong - you feel pain.

 

Yes, we can hold our breath for only a certain amount of time, after that limit is reached our instincts overpower our conscious efferts and we will be forced to take a breath.

 

I agree with you - controlling suffering is a lot harder than controlling pain is. Pain is physical; suffering is psychological.

 

Sure, but the suffering still exists after merely realizing. We still have to look into it more to try and rid ourselves of it.

 

That's a deeper aspect of the subject and I didn't speak to it in my post. I agree with you, if we have allowed ourself to suffer it is difficult to eliminate the suffering. Afterall, feeling sorry for ourself is soooo self-gratifying.

 

If your mind can conquer itself, then it is a lot better than medication. No side effects, no withdrawal, no medical bills. Of course it is a lot harder, but that is why I brought it up.

 

I totally agree with you. Of course, the first thing we need do is attend to the "cause" of the pain - there is something wrong, it needs to be fixed. The pain will continue during the healing process. Controlling the mind can reduce and even eliminate the pain. Sometimes, however, the pain is too great so we should use medications until the pain is manageable mentally.

 

I broke my hip a few years ago and I can tell you this, during the first three days I never would have been able to manage the pain without the assistance of medication. But as soon as I thought I could manage it I made the medics take me off the morphine and I took nothing after that.

 

Be well!

Edited July 28, 2009 by Marblehead

[YawningMind]

I do not believe that we should ignore pain.

Yes of course not, but if it's already there and we know it's there then why not relieve the suffering?

 

 

 

I believe we should seek assistance from qualified healers to help us.

Sometimes it's something short term and minor but painful like a stubbed toe. It's nice to be able to shrug off the discomfort in cases like these.

 

Sometimes it's something long term like arthritis, that you can't really heal.

 

 

 

Sometimes, however, it is simply a matter of perspective. I think the key is to not indulge in the pain. Here is an example of perspective: One morning I woke up in a lot of pain and couldn't seem to get past it. I HAD to take the garbage out. After I had taken the garbage down to the pickup area, all the while muttering to myself how much I hurt and why did I HAVE to take the garbage out it suddenly dawned on me that it is NOT HAVING to take the garbage out. Instead it is WOW I GET to take the garbage out. At this realization I no longer had near the intensity of pain.

Yeah, positive thinking! That can help with pain too!

 

 

 

My suggestion is if one has pain first seek help then focus on NOW while practicing energetics.

Sorry I am a little confused. How will focusing on NOW help if you are feeling pain NOW?

 

 

 

In your above example there is only pain, no suffering. You have tried to prevent natural operations of your body - there is something wrong - you feel pain.

 

Yes, we can hold our breath for only a certain amount of time, after that limit is reached our instincts overpower our conscious efferts and we will be forced to take a breath.

 

I agree with you - controlling suffering is a lot harder than controlling pain is. Pain is physical; suffering is psychological.

That's a deeper aspect of the subject and I didn't speak to it in my post. I agree with you, if we have allowed ourself to suffer it is difficult to eliminate the suffering. Afterall, feeling sorry for ourself is soooo self-gratifying.

I totally agree with you.

That's not the kind of suffering I am referring to! I am referring to the suffering that is directly caused by pain even if people don't pity themselves. It can be decoupled with enough effort.

 

I'm claiming you can even disconnect the suffering of suffocation from the pain of suffocation, and block the desire to breathe while still feeling the effects of oxygen deprivation, though it is more difficult than other kinds of pain.

 

 

 

Of course, the first thing we need do is attend to the "cause" of the pain - there is something wrong, it needs to be fixed.

Yes of course! But that is a separate issue.

 

 

 

Sometimes, however, the pain is too great so we should use medications until the pain is manageable mentally.

This definitely depends on how proficient you are at tolerating pain. I was hoping that the method I wrote of could greatly increase one's tolerance.

 

 

 

I broke my hip a few years ago and I can tell you this, during the first three days I never would have been able to manage the pain without the assistance of medication. But as soon as I thought I could manage it I made the medics take me off the morphine and I took nothing after that.

Hope you're feeling better now!

 

 

 

Most importantly, this is an exercise in conquering the self. To be one step farther away from being psychologically debilitated by uncontrollable circumstances. I thought it was considered an important goal by Taoists....

 

 

 

Thanks for commenting!

Edited July 28, 2009 by YawningMind

[Ya Mu]

Yes of course not, but if it's already there and we know it's there then why not relieve the suffering?

Sometimes it's something short term and minor but painful like a stubbed toe. It's nice to be able to shrug off the discomfort in cases like these.

 

Sometimes it's something long term like arthritis, that you can't really heal.

Yeah, positive thinking! That can help with pain too!

Sorry I am a little confused. How will focusing on NOW help if you are feeling pain NOW?..

 

I was referring to qigong practice which can help eliminate the pain. True qigong practice is always NOW. The qi goes to where the pain is and pushes sick qi out of the body.

And arthritis can be helped immensely with this qigong practice as well.

 

I have operated a pain clinic for close to 30 years and have personally dealt with pain every day, so I can say absolutely it IS a matter of perspective and non-indulgence (which probably coincides with your suffering concept). I can also say absolutely that a properly trained medical qigong healer can eliminate most but usually all pain from a person, including arthritic pain. I do this every day and teach others how to do this as well.

[YawningMind]

I was referring to qigong practice which can help eliminate the pain. True qigong practice is always NOW. The qi goes to where the pain is and pushes sick qi out of the body.

And arthritis can be helped immensely with this qigong practice as well.

 

I have operated a pain clinic for close to 30 years and have personally dealt with pain every day, so I can say absolutely it IS a matter of perspective and non-indulgence (which probably coincides with your suffering concept). I can also say absolutely that a properly trained medical qigong healer can eliminate most but usually all pain from a person, including arthritic pain. I do this every day and teach others how to do this as well.

Well then you know better than I do. Sorry about that. Maybe I just tricked myself into being really non-self-indulgent with regards to pain or something.

 

I guess I did attract the attention of someone who knows more about the subject, yay! Thanks for the info. I'll try and look into how Qi is related to pain.

Edited July 28, 2009 by YawningMind

[Marblehead]

That's not the kind of suffering I am referring to! I am referring to the suffering that is directly caused by pain even if people don't pity themselves. It can be decoupled with enough effort.

 

I'm claiming you can even disconnect the suffering of suffocation from the pain of suffocation, and block the desire to breathe while still feeling the effects of oxygen deprivation, though it is more difficult than other kinds of pain.

 

Hi YawningMind,

 

You know, we are saying almost the same thing except that we view the concepts of 'pain' and 'suffering' differently.

 

In my mind, pain is physical, suffering is psychological. Holding one's breath is not suffering as they are doing this knowingly and willingly - no suffering, only pain (resulting while trying to prevent the body from performing its natural processes).

 

One never has to suffer, never ever. What you mentioned in your first post touches on this. One will experience pain, however. You are walking barefoot and smack you toe against some hard object. Ouch!!!!! Pain!!!!! Am I going to suffer psychologically because of my inattention to where I was walking? I don't think so. Will I feel the pain for a while? Sure. Will I forget about it over time? Of course. (Unless the pain doesn't stop or gets worse which would indicate that I had broken it then I would go see my doctor.) (Actually, for that I wouldn't go to the doctor because all they will do is tell you to keep off of it for a while and give you pain pills. I don't use pain pills under normal conditions and I already know how to sit down and stay off my feet for a while.)

 

 

But, to speak directly to your initial premise, yes, we can control our pain through mental practices. Different practices work better for some than for others. We find what works for us and use it.

 

Be Well!

[Magitek]

sounds very interesting,

 

For me about 20 mins in half lotus after which the pain comes in my knees & ankles the pain is such that it prevents me from practicing any longer.

 

My toes also begin to go numb & i lose the feeling in them I wonder if ignoring this & continuing is a good idea?

 

Any comments?

 

Moonbar,

 

My opinion is that that if it hurts just do a different position. There is a book called "becoming the lotus" that explains that the lotus requires tremendous hip flexibility and if you do not have this you will be stretching your knee and ankle ligaments instead..... Ligaments aren't meant to be stretched because there function is not movement but holding bones together.... It is basic anatomy, when done properly the feet are facing the body (not upwards that is wrong) and your knees are left in such an alignement so that they can bend forwards and backwards as nature intended!

[YawningMind]

Hi YawningMind,

 

You know, we are saying almost the same thing except that we view the concepts of 'pain' and 'suffering' differently.

 

In my mind, pain is physical, suffering is psychological. Holding one's breath is not suffering as they are doing this knowingly and willingly - no suffering, only pain (resulting while trying to prevent the body from performing its natural processes).

 

One never has to suffer, never ever. What you mentioned in your first post touches on this. One will experience pain, however. You are walking barefoot and smack you toe against some hard object. Ouch!!!!! Pain!!!!! Am I going to suffer psychologically because of my inattention to where I was walking? I don't think so. Will I feel the pain for a while? Sure. Will I forget about it over time? Of course. (Unless the pain doesn't stop or gets worse which would indicate that I had broken it then I would go see my doctor.) (Actually, for that I wouldn't go to the doctor because all they will do is tell you to keep off of it for a while and give you pain pills. I don't use pain pills under normal conditions and I already know how to sit down and stay off my feet for a while.)

But, to speak directly to your initial premise, yes, we can control our pain through mental practices. Different practices work better for some than for others. We find what works for us and use it.

 

Be Well!

 

 

Sorry for responding late; I was sleeping.

 

 

Okay, you are correct! Thanks for commenting!

[Ya Mu]

Well then you know better than I do. Sorry about that. Maybe I just tricked myself into being really non-self-indulgent with regards to pain or something.

 

I guess I did attract the attention of someone who knows more about the subject, yay! Thanks for the info. I'll try and look into how Qi is related to pain.

 

I think you, marblehead and I all are saying some same things but with slightly different personal experience that color our concepts. I didn't mean that you were incorrect in what you were saying, just trying to add a further perspective to it.

 

About qi and pain. This is fairly simple. If there is pain then sick qi is involved. What we do is project qi to displace the sick qi, pull the sick qi out of the patients body, and re-balance the energy. When we do this then there is no more pain.

[sognidoro]

Marblehead has the right of it with the "pain is good" as it lets us know when something is wrong.

I also agree with the OP in that if it hurts to get into a certain position, try to find one that doesn't.

 

I do not believe that we should ignore pain. I believe we should seek assistance from qualified healers to help us. Sometimes, however, it is simply a matter of perspective. I think the key is to not indulge in the pain. Here is an example of perspective: One morning I woke up in a lot of pain and couldn't seem to get past it. I HAD to take the garbage out. After I had taken the garbage down to the pickup area, all the while muttering to myself how much I hurt and why did I HAVE to take the garbage out it suddenly dawned on me that it is NOT HAVING to take the garbage out. Instead it is WOW I GET to take the garbage out. At this realization I no longer had near the intensity of pain.

 

My suggestion is if one has pain first seek help then focus on NOW while practicing energetics.

 

[Moonbar]

Magitek thankyou very much for your advice,

 

Unfortunately i cant try another position as the half lotus is the only position ive been instructed to train in - at the moment

 

But it sounds as though i am probably incorrect in my positioning, I did think it was all knee flexibility but thinking about it now-the hips do play a major part - thankyou for your advice, ill be working a lot more on the hips now

I wonder if this could be the key to attaining the most elusive-full lotus?

 

YawningMind, thankyou for your kind words regarding my meditations good luck to yourself also & i hope life gives you all you ask from it

[Magitek]

Magitek thankyou very much for your advice,

 

Unfortunately i cant try another position as the half lotus is the only position ive been instructed to train in - at the moment

 

But it sounds as though i am probably incorrect in my positioning, I did think it was all knee flexibility but thinking about it now-the hips do play a major part - thankyou for your advice, ill be working a lot more on the hips now

I wonder if this could be the key to attaining the most elusive-full lotus?

 

YawningMind, thankyou for your kind words regarding my meditations good luck to yourself also & i hope life gives you all you ask from it

 

Ask your master if you can do burmese posture, that may be better. I know people say you can grow into the lotus but I don't see how this is so when for most people all the pressure will be on the kness and ankles. Even the people who show it off often cannot do a correct one, just watch.

 

I wish people would mention more often that the a proper full-lotus requires animal-like hip flexibility.

 

BTW Drew Hempel got his lotus through soccer stretches, he posted that another on forum.....

 

*edited to be polite.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Magitek

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

QUOTE(Moonbar @ Jul 28 2009, 03:40 AM) *

 

smile.gif sounds very interesting,

 

For me about 20 mins in half lotus after which the pain comes in my knees & ankles sad.gif the pain is such that it prevents me from practicing any longer.

 

My toes also begin to go numb & i lose the feeling in them unsure.gif I wonder if ignoring this & continuing is a good idea?

 

Any comments?

 

What everyone was saying regarding pain is correct. If you are experiencing pain you need to switch off with a different pose for a while. Either do seiza or Burmese.

 

If it is not actual pain, but just that your leg is sometime falling asleep, then that is a different story. You should just ignore it and keep going. Even an hour of having your foot or leg asleep is not going to damage anything, so I would not worry about a 20 minutes or a 1/2 hour. And with time your legs will adjust and they will fall asleep less and less. In this case, you treat it like you would an itch, and just ignore it and keep your attention elsewhere. Building this type of focus willpower will help you to deepen your concentration and stay in meditation for longer and longer periods of time.

 

Also, some types of pain are a very good thing to work through in seated meditation, like muscle pain from holding a position for an extended period of time. As long as your body is properly aligned, this is like the "pain" you get from working out and it is totally healthy. It strengthens your willpower and resolve while conditioning your body for longer bouts of meditation. Just make sure that you know yourself and can tell the difference between pain that is damaging your body and pain that it strengthening it.

 

 

I wish people would mention more often that the a proper full-lotus requires animal-like hip flexibility.

 

BTW Drew Hempel got his lotus through soccer stretches, he posted that another on forum.....

 

It is not that hard to build up to the full lotus, but it does take a lot of time and patience. I personally think that people should not even bother trying to do it until after they have practiced with the butterfly stretch to the point where they can comfortably put both knees flush to the ground and pull in the heels to the crotch with a straight back. This stretch will open up the hips without putting any stress on the knees or ankles. Once you can do this, the full lotus will be completely safe and comfortable and it will be easy to go all the way into it without putting stress on the ankles or knees.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

From Zhuo Ming-Dao:

 

Also, some types of pain are a very good thing to work through in seated meditation, like muscle pain from holding a position for an extended period of time. As long as your body is properly aligned, this is like the "pain" you get from working out and it is totally healthy. It strengthens your willpower and resolve while conditioning your body for longer bouts of meditation. Just make sure that you know yourself and can tell the difference between pain that is damaging your body and pain that it strengthening it.

 

This is very true and I did not mention it in any of my posts. We will always experience some pain while we are training our body to go beyond what has been normal activity in our life. But I will suggest that this pain is good to. Hehehe. It indicates that we are accomplishing something.

 

Be well!

[tianshixian]

One three people are qualified to explain increasing pain tolerance:

 

women who've given childbirth

people who've been in severe accidents and lived

people who've self-inflicted ironbone training (or other random pain)

 

it's quite simple: increase your threshold for pain by greater pain, pretty soon less things hurt.

 

unfortunately, as you get better with Qi, things that never hurt before will.

 

Don't you hate it bwhen your buddhist practice and taoist practice cancel each other out and leave you just as you really are?