Finding my own people?

[findley]

Does anyone know where, on the internet, I could go to find people who are practicing (correctly,) the Secret of the Golden Flower and/or decent and genuine Zen?

 

I have a problem, that I only find assholes with zilch reading comprehension, (I may be guilty at times, too-- but I am not retarded! !) who think that tSotGF is referring to the Microcosmic Orbit, or otherwise corrupt the books teachings.

 

And in regards to Zen-- well, it is such a fashionable practice. . . I may have a hard time finding people who can relate to my own practice, outside of reciting Koan's at me. Also, I suspect that the majority of Zen practitioners are Block Heads who are only just fantasizing themselves as being on the road to spiritual blossoming.

 

I am looking for people who I can relate to, in terms of experience along the way to blossoming. Discussing such things as the many pitfalls of oblivion, specifically, but also confirmatory experiences.

 

Also, Philosophy is not what I am looking for, (unlike most people, I can read books for that sort of thing.)

 

 

-Thanks if anyone knows !!!

[tianshixian]

Does anyone know where, on the internet, I could go to find people who are practicing (correctly,) the Secret of the Golden Flower and/or decent and genuine Zen?

 

I have a problem, that I only find assholes with zilch reading comprehension, (I may be guilty at times, too-- but I am not retarded! !) who think that tSotGF is referring to the Microcosmic Orbit, or otherwise corrupt the books teachings.

 

And in regards to Zen-- well, it is such a fashionable practice. . . I may have a hard time finding people who can relate to my own practice, outside of reciting Koan's at me. Also, I suspect that the majority of Zen practitioners are Block Heads who are only just fantasizing themselves as being on the road to spiritual blossoming.

 

I am looking for people who I can relate to, in terms of experience along the way to blossoming. Discussing such things as the many pitfalls of oblivion, specifically, but also confirmatory experiences.

 

Also, Philosophy is not what I am looking for, (unlike most people, I can read books for that sort of thing.)

-Thanks if anyone knows !!!

 

 

"only you! can prevent zen forest fires."

 

help Smokey the zen bearddha put out harm of the three treasures.

 

if you want Zen, go find it. Don't wander a step or a letter on a forum though, or you'll have missed the turnout.

 

good luck in the next second.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I hate to tell you this but.... the chances of finding really brilliant people with actual first hand experience and "relatable" experiences in real life...... are quite low

 

It's kind of depressing actually. I've had similar experiences. All the groups and practice clubs and schools that I go to are uh.... sub standard.... and the standard that I have was set by this board

 

The great thing about the internet is that location isn't a factor. So here we get a lot of really bright people with lots of good experiences to relate to. So we wind up with a pretty high density of skilled people.

 

But out there in the "real world" you don't have that, and I've found that really brilliant people are few and far between.

[xabir2005]

Does anyone know where, on the internet, I could go to find people who are practicing (correctly,) the Secret of the Golden Flower and/or decent and genuine Zen?

 

I have a problem, that I only find assholes with zilch reading comprehension, (I may be guilty at times, too-- but I am not retarded! !) who think that tSotGF is referring to the Microcosmic Orbit, or otherwise corrupt the books teachings.

 

And in regards to Zen-- well, it is such a fashionable practice. . . I may have a hard time finding people who can relate to my own practice, outside of reciting Koan's at me. Also, I suspect that the majority of Zen practitioners are Block Heads who are only just fantasizing themselves as being on the road to spiritual blossoming.

 

I am looking for people who I can relate to, in terms of experience along the way to blossoming. Discussing such things as the many pitfalls of oblivion, specifically, but also confirmatory experiences.

 

Also, Philosophy is not what I am looking for, (unlike most people, I can read books for that sort of thing.)

-Thanks if anyone knows !!!

I'm not sure about tSotGF, but as for Zen, you could probably find a living zen teacher nearby your place: http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/

[exorcist_1699]

In fact, from Taoist point of view, yin can't be measured by yin itself , but by its opposite : yang. The height and depth of our spirit hardly can be measured by the spirit itself, or by referring to the Koan-typed conversations, but by how delicate the qi we can initiate . And , the delicacy of that qi can be further measured by how many wrinkles, white hair, broken teeth we can sustain/eliminate....so, in reality , we can't cheat ourselves or others . From Taoist point of view ,spiritual aspect and physical aspect of our existence can never be separated. The alienation of our spirit from body is the crucial issue that Taoism has to solve.

 

Taoist criticisms on Zen's method can be found in lots of main Taoist writings. Although always appear a little implicit, their emphasize on the importance of the dialectic relation between yin and yang , spirit and body is unquestionable clear.

[thelerner]

Does anyone know where, on the internet, I could go to find people who are practicing (correctly,) the Secret of the Golden Flower and/or decent and genuine Zen?

 

I have a problem, that I only find assholes with zilch reading comprehension, (I may be guilty at times, too-- but I am not retarded! !) who think that tSotGF is referring to the Microcosmic Orbit, or otherwise corrupt the books teachings.

 

I suspect that the majority of Zen practitioners are Block Heads who are only just fantasizing themselves as being on the road to spiritual blossoming.

 

(unlike most people, I can read books for that sort of thing.)

 

If everywhere you look there are assholes, blockheads and the retarded then I don't think you'll find your perfect group or maybe you already have but categorized them too harshly too soon or vice versa.

 

 

 

 

Michael

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

I think you will also have trouble "relating" experiences with many authentic zen practitioners, since the zen tradition puts all of its emphasis on the doing of zazen... not talking about what altered state you reached, dream you had, or the energy sensation that you felt.

 

The zen tradition says, "yes, those things exist and are surprising and sometimes interesting, but they are not special. And if you focus on them, set them up as goals, or place other importance on them, they will just hold you back."

 

You tell your teacher/roshi about the experience, he tells you that it is just illusion, you go on with your practice and stay in the moment. And you will quickly find that anyone in zen tradition who has gone through many years of meditation under their roshi, and done many sesshin or sanzen retreats, will not be interested in talking to you about their experiences or in hearing about your experiences, because that just builds ego and pride in both practitioners.

 

In zen, you just sit. Visions, qi surges, heightened states, lights in your head, and thoughts from the monkey mind: you watch it all and not become wrapped up or caught by any of it. Eventually all of it will stop and your mind will become perfectly still, stable and quiet. That is when the real magic happens.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

http://www.dharmanet.org/listings/

 

Follow the links to where you live, and look at the centers that offer Zen. Usually you are better off if they just teach one school of Zen. If they teach a number of different styles, it probably means they are not part of any direct lineage. Once you find a couple, go visit them, meditate with them, and see if you like the atmosphere.

[findley]

I am not necessarily interested int discussing temporal experience-- but rather discussing the genuine legitmacy of the actual practice of cultivating that primal essence, (zazen.)

 

Such fools as to refuse to discuss such things are more and more likely to end up blockheads who have trapped themselves up into myriad forms of oblivion.

 

'no talk! sit!' (and so the poor fool student clamps down hard on his mind and does not let go; he sits for hours dwelling in awful, chilling, experience-- he becomes a blockhead.)

 

It does sound cool though-- and even somewhat correct, doesn't it? However the cultivation of the primal essence is found elusive.

 

I suppose I would like to discuss, primarily, the many pitfalls of such Oblivious states as bring about blockheadedness. The traditions pervading zen buddhism, though obscure and subtle, have obviously ruined the practice on the whole, for people in general. They also have a bad habit of pretending that the temporal doesn't exist-- that it doesnt deserve credit for observation.

 

(That means you tianshixian. Your words are fashionably zen, and you have lorded your wisdom over mine. You make me sick.)

 

 

thank you everyone else for your advice. I'm leaving town here for China shortly-- but I will have to keep an eye out for decent zen practitioners from now on.

[exorcist_1699]

Taoist criticism can be summarized in just one question : Without the help of jing and qi , our mind can really disentangle itself and open that Gate to Enlightenment?

Edited August 1, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[findley]

There is written in a taoist classic

 

That of jing, qi, and shen

 

qi controls jing

 

and shen controls qi

 

therefore, if you master the spirit, qi and jing cultivation will necessarily follow suit

 

All one needs

 

is to cultivate the primal essence.

[WhiteTiger]

There is written in a taoist classic

 

That of jing, qi, and shen

 

qi controls jing

 

and shen controls qi

 

therefore, if you master the spirit, qi and jing cultivation will necessarily follow suit

 

All one needs

 

is to cultivate the primal essence.

 

*nods* This is true with authentic real practices taught properly.

 

Unfortunately all my search or practice for real Ch'uan or Zen Buddhism has lead me drastically astray.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Unfortunately all my search or practice for real Ch'uan or Zen Buddhism has lead me drastically astray.

 

Could you elaborate? I am curious as to what deficiencies you see in the Chan/Zen approach, and how those problems might be mitigated or avoided. Or perhaps: what do you think is a better way to go directly to the primal essence?

 

In addition to zazen, I also do additional stretching, qigong, and some depth meditation. This combination has worked very well for me, and I can see how only doing zazen all the time would not exactly be very gentle on your psyche (zen sickness being the biggest problem).

 

In my opinion, the zen tradition probably has the most powerful methods for developing the surface mind and transitioning the mind into the alpha state. It does not, however, have any tools for accessing the deeper levels of consciousness (theta or delta states). Instead, the alpha "heightened awareness" state seems to subsume the entire mind during the kensho experience and presumably it does so permanently after satori. These are only my current observations and theories from the glimpses of these states that I have had so far.

 

The question that arises for me is, do we need to address and work with unconscious/collective unconscious/archetypes (as in the Vajrayana tradition), or the jing, qi, and physical body as in the Daoist tradition? - This is a genuine question I have, not a rhetorical one -

[宁]

In fact, from Taoist point of view, yin can't be measured by yin itself , but by its opposite : yang. The height and depth of our spirit hardly can be measured by the spirit itself, or by referring to the Koan-typed conversations, but by how delicate the qi we can initiate . And , the delicacy of that qi can be further measured by how many wrinkles, white hair, broken teeth we can sustain/eliminate....so, in reality , we can't cheat ourselves or others . From Taoist point of view ,spiritual aspect and physical aspect of our existence can never be separated. The alienation of our spirit from body is the crucial issue that Taoism has to solve.

 

Taoist criticisms on Zen's method can be found in lots of main Taoist writings. Although always appear a little implicit, their emphasize on the importance of the dialectic relation between yin and yang , spirit and body is unquestionable clear.

 

Hello exorcist

 

I agree with your words, they ring true to me.

It is said that the closer your spirit comes to you, well... I don't know the correct expression, but it's about becoming more and more kind and gentle.

I remember reading something in the Dao De Jing related to this virtue of gentleness...

You may know more about it.

Care to comment?

 

L1

[Vajrahridaya]

 

The question that arises for me is, do we need to address and work with unconscious/collective unconscious/archetypes (as in the Vajrayana tradition), or the jing, qi, and physical body as in the Daoist tradition? - This is a genuine question I have, not a rhetorical one -

 

I think both Taoism and Vajrayana do both, no? Vajrayana has Trukoor Yoga techniques. There are other types and names of the different forms of Vajrayana Physical Yogas. Visualisations and breath controls along with body movements and mantra vibration. Taoism has this as well, yes? I'm not sure what you mean by unconscious collectives, are you talking about alaya vijnana or the 8th consciousness of chittamatra, that's done in Zen too. As Yogachara went to China and Japan and there's forms of Shingon/Tachikawa Buddhist Tantra in Japan which most likely came through China too, but supposedly came to a Buddhist practitioner through visions? I'm not that well versed in the activities of Buddhism east of India. I just read of the Mantra or Tantric School (Mi-tsung or Chen-yen) in China during the 7th century that later just got took over by the popular Lamaism?

 

Hmmm?

 

This is a good explanation of the Alaya Vijnana.

 

http://waynedhamma.blogspot.com/2007/12/wh...sciousness.html

Edited August 1, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Yes, I was referring to alaya vijnana (storehouse consciousness) when I mentioned the collective unconscious.

 

 

And it is of course true that all of the aforementioned techniques and philosophies were geographically available to Chan and Zen practitioners. Chan had very close ties to Daoism, and Japanese Zen arose side by side with Shingon vajrayana/tantra, Tendai, Pure Land, etc. There were also many onmyoji (yin yang sorcerers), mountain hermits, and exercists/energy healers in medieval Japan.

 

It was a conscious choice for the Zen school to disavow these techniques as superfluous. They claim visions and appearances of deities to be mikyo (illusion) and they focus on purifying the mind only through chant, zazen, koans, and samu (physical work/cleaning).

 

So my question was whether this decision was a wise or effective one.

[Vajrahridaya]

So my question was whether this decision was a wise or effective one.

 

I suppose it depends on the person, but integration with all cosmic potentiality seems to be the aim of tantra. No dismissing anything as either illusion or inherently real, but just integrating Buddha mind with it all. Utilizing all aspects as sign's of dharmakaya through contemplation.

[thelerner]

Findley, the discussion here shows something. Sometimes the best way to find something is to create it yourself. You could get a Personal Discussion page and create 4 sections. SofTGF Light, SofTGF Heavy, Best of the GF, and Rules.

 

You'd have full power to edit and delete posts in all the sections. To get into the 'Heavy' people would have to apply and answer a questionaire to your satisfaction including how dedicated they are to the process. Otherwise posts there would be erased.

 

Ofcourse you wouldn't get many, but you may get some and the SoftGF light part might lure in some talent as well.

Some of your kind may forage around here, you could provide a home.

 

 

My 2 cents

 

 

Michael

[exorcist_1699]

Hello exorcist

 

I agree with your words, they ring true to me.

It is said that the closer your spirit comes to you, well... I don't know the correct expression, but it's about becoming more and more kind and gentle.

I remember reading something in the Dao De Jing related to this virtue of gentleness...

You may know more about it.

Care to comment?

 

L1

Zen Buddhism seldom mentions jing and qi, besides the fact that in its system,there is no such elements , I think it also likely for the consideration of not making people attached to them .As we know, the key of Zen Buddhism is to nourish an immense , splendid Mind from nowhere ("於無所住而生其心" from Diamond Sutra ); incapable of doing that, then no matter how many years we sit, it is just a waste of time (of course , if some people think that attaining a peaceful mind can be called some kind of achievement, I can't argue with them); I think this kind of methodological consideration does make sense for paying attention to jing and qi can be some kind of blockade.

 

On the other hand, Taoist standpoint is always clear: accumulate certain jing enables us have a qualitative jump to qi or more delicate qi , and after having accumulated certain amount of qi , can further make our mind has a qualitative jump provided that we always stick to the principle of non-attachment (nothingness ).

 

Some Taoist masters also think that only people called super- virtue ("上德" ), because of their having no deficiency in jing and qi , can afford using the Zen method ,ie, skipping jing and qi, and go directly to the shen level . ; so , it is a method for some "priviledged " , talented guys...

Edited August 2, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[宁]

Zen Buddhism seldom mentions jing and qi, besides the fact that in its system,there is no such elements , I think it also likely for the consideration of not making people attached to them .As we know, the key of Zen Buddhism is to nourish an immense , splendid Mind from nowhere ("於無所住而生其心" from Diamond Sutra ); incapable of doing that, then no matter how many years we sit, it is just a waste of time (of course , if some people think that attaining a peaceful mind can be called some kind of achievement, I can't argue with them); I think this kind of methodological consideration does make sense for paying attention to jing and qi can be some kind of blockade.

 

On the other hand, Taoist standpoint is always clear: accumulate certain jing enables us have a qualitative jump to qi or more delicate qi , and after having accumulated certain amount of qi , can further make our mind has a qualitative jump provided that we always stick to the principle of non-attachment (nothingness ).

 

Some Taoist masters also think that only people called super- virtue ("上德" ), because of their having no deficiency in jing and qi , can afford using the Zen method ,ie, skipping jing and qi, and go directly to the shen level . ; so , it is a method for some "priviledged " , talented guys...

 

 

what means do Taoists use to accumulate jing and qi?... and why do they speak so little of it?

 

i found one short movie that tells some interesting things about Zen training:

 

[findley]

Thank you Thelerner--

 

I have been considering, lately, about devising and holding work-shops in Memphis teaching the Secret of the Golden Flower, when I get back from my study in Beijing. I was thinking about creating a website to help advertise and supplement the teaching experience-- it would be a good idea to support a forum specific to these teachings, as well.

 

I may not be a master-- but I am certain I could earn recognition and be perceived as one, doing this sort of thing.

 

thank you...

[WhiteTiger]

Could you elaborate? I am curious as to what deficiencies you see in the Chan/Zen approach, and how those problems might be mitigated or avoided. Or perhaps: what do you think is a better way to go directly to the primal essence?

 

In addition to zazen, I also do additional stretching, qigong, and some depth meditation. This combination has worked very well for me, and I can see how only doing zazen all the time would not exactly be very gentle on your psyche (zen sickness being the biggest problem).

 

In my opinion, the zen tradition probably has the most powerful methods for developing the surface mind and transitioning the mind into the alpha state. It does not, however, have any tools for accessing the deeper levels of consciousness (theta or delta states). Instead, the alpha "heightened awareness" state seems to subsume the entire mind during the kensho experience and presumably it does so permanently after satori. These are only my current observations and theories from the glimpses of these states that I have had so far.

 

The question that arises for me is, do we need to address and work with unconscious/collective unconscious/archetypes (as in the Vajrayana tradition), or the jing, qi, and physical body as in the Daoist tradition? - This is a genuine question I have, not a rhetorical one -

 

 

Sorry at this moment I'm unable to render any ability to clearly and safely elaborate.

 

peace, virtue

wt

Edited August 3, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[contrivedname!]

Thank you Thelerner--

 

I have been considering, lately, about devising and holding work-shops in Memphis teaching the Secret of the Golden Flower, when I get back from my study in Beijing. I was thinking about creating a website to help advertise and supplement the teaching experience-- it would be a good idea to support a forum specific to these teachings, as well.

 

I may not be a master-- but I am certain I could earn recognition and be perceived as one, doing this sort of thing.

 

thank you...

always with the pointed responses eh Mr. Findley? what does it require to become a "master" besides earning recognition and preception as such? and who, i wonder, are the folks giving these titles?

 

as to finding your own people, i would suggest nothing, yes nothing.

 

enjoying your posts,

...?

[WhiteTiger]

There is written in a taoist classic

 

That of jing, qi, and shen

 

qi controls jing

 

and shen controls qi

 

therefore, if you master the spirit, qi and jing cultivation will necessarily follow suit

 

All one needs

 

is to cultivate the primal essence.

 

*nods* This is true with authentic real practices taught properly.

 

Unfortunately all my search or practice for real Ch'uan or Zen Buddhism has lead me drastically astray.

 

Although the following is true

There is written in a taoist classic

 

That of jing, qi, and shen

 

qi controls jing

 

and shen controls qi

 

The next following

therefore, if you master the spirit, qi and jing cultivation will necessarily follow suit

 

All one needs

 

is to cultivate the primal essence.

 

May also be true but this isn't how it works. This is a standpoint of a Ch'uan Buddhism approaching the issues.

It leaves little room for the cultivator.

[Birch]

 

I may not be a master-- but I am certain I could earn recognition and be perceived as one, doing this sort of thing.

 

thank you...

 

Hi Findley! You could get both of those without having other people spend money on your teaching. Kind of like a trial run. And until you are a master - which it sounds like you are on the right course for becoming - I would be wary of putting my dime down.

 

I don't know if what you're considering is quite the same as opening an online boutique. Would you be willing to spend all that time and effort responding to your students? See how much flak Chris and co got for not providing adequate input? And if you're not going to do the work with your students, what would be the result? It seems like it's often tough territory, do you just tell them "suck it up"?

 

I know I may sound terribly critical but I'm worried that until you're straight about motivation (because it might "unstraighten" afterwards) you might be setting yourself - and others- up for a bad ride. I hope I'm wrong! And if I am then you can help me later;-)

 

Either way, all the best!

 

Kate