The Eternal Self of the Buddha

[Lucky7Strikes]

Well, have you ever meditated and experienced an expansion beyond the body where you feel like your just consciousness without thought or object? It's all lit up, there are different stages. All white light, translucent darkness. Or just total darkness and no sense of awareness? These are the formless jhanas and I didn't list them in order here. But, beings generally fall into these states at the end of a cosmic eon due to mistaking these states of altered consciousness as the true blissful Self of all. Then the merits burn after some time and one by one, the first being the first born who thinks himself God and the others coming afterwards thinking he manifested them from the formless potentiality with no memory of a previous universe. This is why the Vedas are not truly correct and why the old testament is not truly correct, because the cause of life is given to this first born who mistakenly thinks his being as the start of all things. There are layers to this too, as some wake up from this formless state with infinite consciousness but no body, and others wake up with a refined body, and they are not necessarily all aware of each others dimensions at first. Some may start arguing with each other, literally about who the creator is then a big formless voice will come in saying, "ahahahaha, I... the creator of all being, saw you emanate from my formless essence, I am in you and you are in me." So...

 

Now do these mind streams separate and merge? I think you mentioned this before.

 

I don't think many Buddhists look into this deeply as you have...you being an..."ex-Hindu." There's more focus on practice and rooting out suffering. But the whole cosmology is very interesting.

 

Taoism gets tricky with the whole "becoming one with the Tao." There's less emphasis on intellectual theory but more on experience and practice. But I wouldn't mind interpreting the Tao as the phenomena of emptiness. The expression of that one law the practitioner "merges" with through direct realization. Something tells me there was some sort of Buddhist influence there...

[Vajrahridaya]

Now do these mind streams separate and merge? I think you mentioned this before.

 

I don't think many Buddhists look into this deeply as you have...you being an..."ex-Hindu." There's more focus on practice and rooting out suffering. But the whole cosmology is very interesting.

 

Taoism gets tricky with the whole "becoming one with the Tao." There's less emphasis on intellectual theory but more on experience and practice. But I wouldn't mind interpreting the Tao as the phenomena of emptiness. The expression of that one law the practitioner "merges" with through direct realization. Something tells me there was some sort of Buddhist influence there...

 

Oh Buddhism is mostly about experience and practice. Especially Vajrayana where the practices are deep and particular. Also, sure plenty of Buddhists look deeply into this, but they are the type that study the scriptures. All this is in the cosmology written down in texts really.

 

Anyway... no they don't merge, they think they do, but they just go into a suppressed state of consciousness where all the potentiality for 3 dimensional experience is hidden in their alaya vijnana, which is a formless storehouse consciousness that appears like a deep sphere or a bindu in meditation.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Lucky7Strikes]

Oh Buddhism is mostly about experience and practice. Especially Vajrayana where the practices are deep and particular. Also, sure plenty of Buddhists look deeply into this, but they are the type that study the scriptures. All this is in the cosmology written down in texts really. I mean, I suppose my way of speaking these findings and experiences are related personally of course and the spoken in my own words, and many I experienced first, then read about saying, "oh yeah, exactly what I feel".

 

Anyway... no they don't merge, they think they do, but they just go into a suppressed state of consciousness where all the potentiality for 3 dimensional experience is hidden in their alaya vijnana, which is a formless storehouse consciousness that appears like a deep sphere or a bindu in meditation.

 

So creation and destruction is just consciousness merging into its potential formless awareness and that potential becoming active as physical and mental creations where-in all the previous mind-streams from the eon before recycle again and again?

 

And this impermanent nature of Samsara is the basis for Nirvana...realizing the permanence of impermanence..

 

So the mind-stream that attains Nirvana is sort of like an un-abiding presence where it is everywhere in all aspects of Samsara..?

Edited August 4, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[JustARandomPanda]

Edited August 4, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Vajrahridaya]

So creation and destruction is just consciousness merging into its potential formless awareness and that potential becoming active as physical and mental creations where-in all the previous mind-streams from the eon before recycle again and again?

 

And this impermanent nature of Samsara is the basis for Nirvana...realizing the permanence of impermanence..

 

Yes where the gunas are balanced into a state of potentiality to manifest when the conditions ripen to do so.

 

Yes, and so your second assertion is also correct and succinct.

 

 

 

So the mind-stream that attains Nirvana is sort of like an un-abiding presence where it is everywhere in all aspects of Samsara..?

 

The alaya vijnana of the Samsarin has become now the Dharmakaya of a Buddha. So yes... you are correct.

[Meson]

[JustARandomPanda]

Can someone provide that link to the 31 Planes again? I lost it.

[ralis]

No primal cause other than endless cause and effect through a beginningless web of interconnectivity and how much we organize the received chaos into the understanding of expanding awareness of complexidly ordered connection, thereby acting virtuously and selflessly. Eventually seeing emptiness directly and having a body of both virtue and freedom.

Ignorance is more like a way of saying the cause of limitation rather than a point of self aggrandization. It's more like the cause of limiting self identity.

Not if they were Buddhas. Besides, their mind stream didn't die, just that karmic physicality died. Those Iraqis are experiencing the fruit of previous karmas through other bodies in this or other realms right now.

Same as above, nothing happens without causes and conditions.

We'll according to Taoism, we are the Tao. So, in certain way's Taoism is in cahoots with Buddhism, though I think Buddhism goes into much more detail.

 

Your right there about Bohm. He musta been a Bodhisattva!

 

Well, I don't know how much actual bodhichitta he had developed. So... he mighta just been a really smart dude.

 

 

What a naive and heartless point of view. Just wrap the world in your mental concepts with no feeling and everything is just fine. You must live a very sheltered life.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited August 5, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[nac]

Ah, so for you there are no other realms of experience other than this physical realm?

What physical realm?

 

SereneBlue: The doctrine of ignorance is applicable to myself before anybody else.

[Vajrahridaya]

What physical realm?

 

SereneBlue: The doctrine of ignorance is applicable to myself before anybody else.

 

Well, I mean the realm you perceive through your 5 senses or dream states. I mean, for you there is no personal consciousness after the brain completely dies?

[nac]

Existence consists of a jumble of emergent phenomena interconnected by a web of cause, effect and randomness. There are subjective phenomena and objective phenomena and others, all interacting with each other in complex ways. Some phenomena are hard to classify as unquestionably subjective or objective.

 

Moving in any direction from there is bringing judgment and/or opinions into the picture. That's okay. At the moment, my judgment says there is probably no afterlife as we imagine it. I could be wrong. I don't remember dying and even if I did, I wouldn't trust the memory on face value.

[Vajrahridaya]

Moving in any direction from there is bringing judgment and/or opinions into the picture. That's okay. At the moment, my judgment says there is probably no afterlife as we imagine it. I could be wrong. I don't remember dying and even if I did, I wouldn't trust the memory on face value.

 

Fair enough.

 

For me there is based upon direct experiencing. But, I understand and I'm not a blind faith type of person either.

[dwai]

no thanks, i wouldnt of asked if i felt like googling it, i was more curious to get one of your or mikalez descriptions of it.

 

if your all about middle path free from extremes why do you keep arguing an extreme stance?

 

it just seems to me your refutation of monism is just about as extreme a view as a completely monistic view...

 

then again, what do i know?

 

chris

 

*bump* thought it's relevant to the Advaita Buddhism discussion currently underway

[JustARandomPanda]

Moved this to the Buddhist forum since this is where this topic belongs.

 

Here's a link to the Mahaparinirvana Sutra for reference.

[JustARandomPanda]

Well, I mean the realm you perceive through your 5 senses or dream states. I mean, for you there is no personal consciousness after the brain completely dies?

 

My answer now is "I don't know."

[C T]

My answer now is "I don't know."

If i may, i'd like to recommend two books which could shed some clear light on the matter.

 

http://books.google.ie/books?id=VHQPxMqmHNIC&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=buddha+nature+sallie+king&source=bl&ots=-sY5cKciO7&sig=WALN6elKA0moSY5l_gI_1igvm00&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Kl6QT_jnK8fChAfrqbS3BA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=buddha%20nature%20sallie%20king&f=false

 

http://books.google.ie/books?id=eXnF2dolnNgC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=ratnagotra&source=bl&ots=wtMT0_cgdR&sig=Tn9vNlhJ7pwRrfn7Ym6m2m-hIho&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aeiTT9DvF4iwhAfYv62IBA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=ratnagotra&f=false

[Informer]

I think you have a firm grasp on what Buddha was attempting to convey dwai.

 

Not-self is pointing to deduction, by eliminating the possibilities we inevitably arrive at the conclusion which is what is left. By reality I think Buddha was referring to objective reality, or evidence as is determined in science. Self evident truth or subjective truth is what you find within and what you use to determine what the self is not. After thorough deduction I think all that is left is a vast emptiness of pure awareness, without a self-image, just an awareness which everything phenomenal arises within.

 

I would suggest to everyone involved in the analogous debate to consider Ockham’s razor:

 

Ockham’s razor, also spelled Occam’s razor, also called law of economy, or law of parsimony, principle stated by William of Ockham (1285–1347/49), a scholastic, that Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate; “Plurality should not be posited without necessity.” The principle gives precedence to simplicity; of two competing theories, the simplest explanation of an entity is to be preferred. The principle is also expressed “Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.”

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/424706/Ockhams-razor

Edited May 30, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

I also do not think that Buddha had meant for his teaching to be divided up into sects the way it has become, so considering this only 1 out of the many interpretations is probably correct, and that one coincides with the truths from other teachings from other cultures, imo.

 

I also don't think he was meaning to say that he is special, or in anyway different from us, not a god, not to be worshipped, only to guide us to the truth of all of our essential natures. (Like the rest of the prophets)

 

He seemed to be modest and humble, because I think he knew deep down that we are all that very same thing underneath it all in the conclusion and realization that he arrived at so very long ago. Ridding one of a residual self-image is only a very small step in realizing what you are. It is the breaking down of misconceptions to provide a firm base to build self-evident truth and continue the journey of discovery to determine what you really are.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Informer

[dwai]

I think you have a firm grasp on what Buddha was attempting to convey dwai.

 

Not-self is pointing to deduction, by eliminating the possibilities we inevitably arrive at the conclusion which is what is left. By reality I think Buddha was referring to objective reality, or evidence as is determined in science. Self evident truth or subjective truth is what you find within and what you use to determine what the self is not. After thorough deduction I think all that is left is a vast emptiness of pure awareness, without a self-image, just an awareness which everything phenomenal arises within.

 

I would suggest to everyone involved in the analogous debate to consider Ockham's razor:

 

 

indeed...I have used the law of parsimony to often indicate (in such discussions and I do believe even here) that to go from one to many or to go from one to nothing are both more convoluted and complicated (not simple) as compared to just staying with "one". True emptiness is not truly empty...

 

Take Alaya Vijnana for instance...it is so ludicrous that it makes me laugh every time I hear or read someone arguing about it in seriousness...

 

Its whole and sole purpose is to try and explain the non-dual experience without accepting the eternal self (so the infinite "non-dual" individual streams of consciousness interconnected via indrajaal)...it is posterior to the experience...an intellectual exercise to describe the indescribable.

 

That's it from me...these discussions are pointless after a while...if seeds are planted they will germinate into trees...but if the soil is not prepared, seeds will simply not germinate...

Edited May 30, 2012 by dwai

[dwai]

[xabir2005]

Alayavijnana is the state of ignorance, and through the latent tendencies or seeds project a world of duality. It has no resemblance whatsoever to some ultimate ground of being. Alayavijnana is also not talking about nondual experience.

 

Through the arising of wisdom, alayavijnana ceases to have its designation, as all dualistic consciousness, totaling 8 consciousness (vijnana) has transformed into the five wisdoms.

 

All delusional states arising through the eight consciousness, and all wisdoms, are utterly empty of self and unestablished from top to bottom.

Edited May 31, 2012 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

[Informer]

Interesting that this coincides with how I understood Buddha:

 

It is the uprooting of the ideas, firmly set in the mind, that we are totally accustomed to. These habitual thought-currents identify us to the physical body, pranic body, mental body, intellectual body and causal (kaarana) body (Pancha-Kosha, meaning, 5 sheaths of the Soul). Our usual mental pattern is like this, "I am this body", "my name is such and such", "my personality is my identity", or, "I am this child's father or, mother", "I am this person's son/daughter", "I am this woman's husband", or, "that man is my husband", "I belong to this community", "I am male/ female", "I am human" and so on. These thoughts strongly bind us to this worldly existence and all the joys and pains that arise from it.

 

The reverse hypnosis or, analytic logic of Vedantic Jnana-Yogis is the opposite thinking-process that Free our Consciousness from this worldly realm. It is known as Neti-Neti Vichara, or, "Not-this, Not-this Analysis". It goes on like, "I am not this body, not this mind, not the receptacle of thoughts, but 'I am Pure Undivided Consciousness without beginning or, end'". It is analogous to disconnecting our identification to this body (or, individual existence) and firmly connecting it to the Omnipresent Consciousness, or, Absolute Oneness. This train of thought gives rise to a special mental wave or, Vritti, called Brahmakara Vritti, (A Thought Wave simulating Brahman/ Omnipresent Consciousness). This Vritti destroys all other waves of the mind and in the end, it self-destructs. Thus all mental vibrations are eradicated by this Neti-neti meditation, causing Chitta-Vritti-Nirodha state of Patanjali, ("Yogas-chitta-vritti-nirodha", Patanjal Yoga Sutras, Samadhipaad, 2)[[1]]

 

As all reflections of this world vanish from the mind, only the consciousness remains, which had always been behind our existence. This Pure Consciousness is the Truth, or, Atman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti

 

Thanks for that Xabir, I wasn't aware of this correlation before. I think that "I am not this body" is equivalent to not-self. It seems like Anatta was sayin something very similar, imagine that some interpretations do coincide with other teachings from other cultures . . . hmmm . . . Maybe we are getting closer to what Buddha too was talking about and understood, and found to be truth as well . . . .

Edited May 31, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

Awareness remains after you die, it's just not your awareness. People laugh when they realize that they are not that little residual self-image inside of their heads that they had thought they were, you know why they laugh?

 

Because how simple the truth was.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Informer