High level skills in martial arts.

[Yuen Biao]

I'm slightly lost in my training and wanted to ask your thoughts.

 

Firstly a question: do you believe all martial systems ultimately become alike? I mean in the sense that they all teach the same ideas/principles and so forth? If so what would they be in your opinion?

Is the internal aspect this high-end principle which unites arts?

 

I study Taijiquan and Qigong as some of you may know but I'm struggling to describe my path as a martial artist to those who are unfamiliar with the subject. Indeed how does one explain internal aspects, yielding and Qi to people who might be more used to hard skills like boxing or wrestling?

 

Your thoughts would be of interest mostly in relation to internal martial arts.

 

Peace.

[Naziri]

Your Shifu should teach you T'aijiQUAN martially and you should be taught how to apply the movements. If this is lacking then you should study a complementary style of traditional Kungfu, depending on your style of T'aiji, in order to complement your understanding.

 

Peace.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I'd say that generally speaking, they become the same. Meaning that things like efficiency of movement, conserving energy, striking at the most vulnerable points, etc, are all what masters focus on.

 

I think it was Bruce Lee who said something to the effect of, "put a bunch of masters in a room together, and they will all agree. Put a bunch of students in a room together, and they will argue."

 

Even if the style or the method differs, let's say that a karate master would rather strike hard and fast and a tai chi master would rather strike an overexposed target, they both would understand that each one of them would exploit the weakness of the other person (one exploiting the inability to defend properly, the other exploiting the overreaching of his opponent).

 

But if the karate master was facing someone who threw wild punches and would always leave exposed areas, the karate master would naturally use the strategy of the tai chi master, and if te tai chi master fought someone who would never commit, the tai chi master would adopt the strategy of the karate master to get the opponent to commit and create and opening, or something like that.

 

So.... yes and no?

Edited August 4, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Martial Development]

Firstly a question: do you believe all martial systems ultimately become alike? I mean in the sense that they all teach the same ideas/principles and so forth?

 

Absolutely not!!!

[Doctor Shaft]

I agree with Sloppy Zhang. I'd say that at a high level, martial arts generally head in the same direction.

 

I look at it as a web. In the center of the web is our goal for martial efficiency. To get to that goal, there are a variety of paths one can take. These paths are what form the web. Karate will start you at one point, but as you learn more and more and head towards the goal or the center, the defined lines that once said "Karate" start to dissolve.

 

That is where I am now in my own training. I'm a Tang Soo Do practitioner (which is, for all intents and purposes, karate). When I was 5 years into my practice, karate was karate. It was very much different from, say, boxing or wrestling. At year 17... the lines are starting to blur. Sure, I still very clearly see the difference between the arts... but their movements no longer surprise me, or impress me. This is not due to arrogance or some idle notion that karate's moves are just superior. It's just that mechanics are starting to look the same, or I can at least see where it's going.

 

So the notion that a bunch of masters would agree, and students would argue, seems to be correct. I'm constantly augmenting and learning skills for people that practice different things... and then I quickly see that it matches a movement or an application in something I've already done before. Granted, I'm no where near as proficient as the other practitioner, but that's more due to emphasis rather than the name of the art we practice.

 

I'd say the "No" part of the answer comes up more in the philosophy or approach to training than actual technique itself. Where different styles clearly diverge is both their starting point (what skills will the beginner learn and create a base from), and also the philosophy to how and why they will learn the skill. What are you training for?

[Martial Development]

Oscar Wilde said "Bad artists always admire each other's work," and nowhere is that more true than in martial arts.

 

Here is a principle: Habeas Corpus. Produce the body. Where are these expert martial artists, trained in different styles, who share all the same principles? Please start by identifying them. Then, we can consider whether their specific shared principles are anything more than trivialities.

 

Otherwise...case dismissed for lack of evidence.

[Meson]

Hi - just interested more in where you feel lost in your training? How is it connected with having to relate it to your previous body of practice/understanding of others?

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Mal]

Everyone has 2 arms 2 legs and a head (baring misfortune ) and there are only so many ways to use them. So yes I believe at a high level stylistic differences disappear and principals are basically similar for the traditional arts.

 

Some sports may not share principals.

 

The problem I have with arts NOT being similar is you would then have to assume that one art is intrinsically superior to others. And while practitioners can be "better" than others practitioners. I don't believe one art is intrinsically better than another.

 

Personally I have seen black belt karate forms that look like kung fu. Fujian White Crane, Wing Chun and Tong Long are very similar (as you would expect) and the stylistic difference are not that important IMHO

 

i.e. I could say that Tong Long's square on two handed stance makes it superior to Wing Chun's leading hand stance or that there is more control of opponents limbs in Tong Long, or that Tong long is more circular. But that's all nit picking e.g. a good Wing Chun stylist will feel that their styles leading hand stance will give them advantages over Tong Longs two handed stance.

 

Obviously we like the differences in our styles too or we would train something different

 

Indeed how does one explain internal aspects, yielding and Qi to people who might be more used to hard skills like boxing or wrestling?

 

You can't talk about it (well you can) you need to show them. We have a nice outside to inside redirection called Moot Sau that I like to use. Basically you get someone to punch you in the head (A jab is good) yet you redirect the incoming punch off target rather than using a force on force block. Feels really weird because the harder they try to hit you the easier it is for you to make them miss. If you can do the technique correctly they don't even feel you moving them. If you can't they will hit you in the head (ouch ) or your structure will take the force and it will just feel like a block.

 

I think it was Bruce Lee who said something to the effect of, "put a bunch of masters in a room together, and they will all agree. Put a bunch of students in a room together, and they will argue."

[Sloppy Zhang]

Oscar Wilde said "Bad artists always admire each other's work," and nowhere is that more true than in martial arts.

 

Here is a principle: Habeas Corpus. Produce the body. Where are these expert martial artists, trained in different styles, who share all the same principles? Please start by identifying them. Then, we can consider whether their specific shared principles are anything more than trivialities.

 

Otherwise...case dismissed for lack of evidence.

 

Sheesh it's not a court, calm down

 

Here's one: look at the taiji fa jin punch. The idea is that power is generated from the ground, goes up through the legs, through the body, through the arms, and into the other guy. You stay relaxed and coordinate moving with your full body to generate maximum power. Some tai chi guys around the world make a big deal about how tai chi is one of the few styles to use relaxed coordinated power. A lot of IMA-ists also knock external styles that aren't as "sophisticated" in terms of body mechanics....

 

Now watch

. Same principles. Slightly different application (different stances, different movement), but same overall principle.

 

So you have an "external" style, boxing, but at the highest level, highly similar application of techniques and mechanics to the "sophisticated" internal styles.

[Andrei]

I'm slightly lost in my training and wanted to ask your thoughts.

 

...

 

I study Taijiquan and Qigong as some of you may know but I'm struggling to describe my path as a martial artist to those who are unfamiliar with the subject. Indeed how does one explain internal aspects, yielding and Qi to people who might be more used to hard skills like boxing or wrestling?

 

Your thoughts would be of interest mostly in relation to internal martial arts.

 

Peace.

 

Just practice zhang zhuang (embracing the tree) for 30 min a day and go fight in competitions (boxing, wrestling, judo or any system you like) and you will understand Taijiquan AFTERWARDS.

[Martial Development]

Sheesh it's not a court, calm down

 

Here's one: look at the taiji fa jin punch. The idea is that power is generated from the ground, goes up through the legs, through the body, through the arms, and into the other guy. You stay relaxed and coordinate moving with your full body to generate maximum power. Some tai chi guys around the world make a big deal about how tai chi is one of the few styles to use relaxed coordinated power. A lot of IMA-ists also knock external styles that aren't as "sophisticated" in terms of body mechanics....

 

Now watch

. Same principles. Slightly different application (different stances, different movement), but same overall principle.

 

So you have an "external" style, boxing, but at the highest level, highly similar application of techniques and mechanics to the "sophisticated" internal styles.

 

If "try to be coordinated" is a principle, then who is unprincipled? Nobody.

 

"Intercept" versus "extend" is one example of a genuine difference in approach. They are not remotely the same thing. Yet they both can work.

 

A martial artist reaches a high level after they find the courage to choose a path, and take it. You cannot walk in every direction. You cannot master every skill.

[Sloppy Zhang]

A martial artist reaches a high level after they find the courage to choose a path, and take it. You cannot walk in every direction. You cannot master every skill.

 

And I..... disagree

 

Now some people choose to do one thing one way, another may choose another way to do it. Some people may choose to learn both ways of doing it. I think people can do whatever they decide to do, and I don't think that there's a limit, should you choose to delve into every skill (and please don't say "jack of all trades master of none", it's used way too often as a response in these types of discussion)

Edited August 5, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Spirit Ape]

Your Martial arts should lead you to Good fighting , Good Healing, Good health & longevity, Good spiritual path!

[adam mizner]

hi

 

simply put, no. different arts lead in different directions. the entire power generation in taiji for example is opposite to most arts.

 

as for showing someone what your art is about, well if your a taiji man then there is nothing like dropping them on their but or shooting them across the room. action speak louder than words.

 

metta

adam

 

I'm slightly lost in my training and wanted to ask your thoughts.

 

Firstly a question: do you believe all martial systems ultimately become alike? I mean in the sense that they all teach the same ideas/principles and so forth? If so what would they be in your opinion?

Is the internal aspect this high-end principle which unites arts?

 

I study Taijiquan and Qigong as some of you may know but I'm struggling to describe my path as a martial artist to those who are unfamiliar with the subject. Indeed how does one explain internal aspects, yielding and Qi to people who might be more used to hard skills like boxing or wrestling?

 

Your thoughts would be of interest mostly in relation to internal martial arts.

 

Peace.

[Yuen Biao]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

Maybe I am confusing myself, I am happy to be training and enjoy it but I have difficulty explaining what I know to people who aren't aware of the subtlety involved in Taiji. Obviously it is best to 'show' how this works but that's not always possible.

 

Maybe 'Sloppy Zhang' is correct in that body mechanics are used efficiently whatever the system; I think that is what I was struggling with. From speaking to martial artists you can say: "oh yea we have this technique which is the same as your way..." and I do agree with that.

 

At high levels are all systems fundamentally the same? Its basically the internal/external debate ad infinitum. I think the problem is when you begin to talk about effortless skill and using non-force because people just think you are nuts!

 

I do practise Zhan Zhuang but haven't tested my skills for a while, my sparring partner is injured at the moment so we cannot throw each other about.

 

Sorry to bother you all.

Peace.

[Sloppy Zhang]

hi

 

simply put, no. different arts lead in different directions. the entire power generation in taiji for example is opposite to most arts.

 

But that's the thing: it's NOT.

 

Look at the video on the boxing punch I posted earlier. Yes, boxing movements and the handling of the body is a bit different. But at the highest levels, you'd be amazed how similar it is to the "more sophisticated" internal martial arts. I suggest you take some boxing classes, or find some vids on youtube from some top boxing instructors (there are some good ones here and there). There are some really impressive teachers who teach many of the same concepts.

 

Also, look at some top MMA fighters, like Anderson Silva, for example, analyze their fighting style. They are just as relaxed and yielding as any taiji fighter would be. It's about efficiency of movement, conserving energy (tensed muscles take up too much energy). A seasoned fighter will know how to last in the ring, how to use their energy the most efficiently, and that's something shared by taiji.

 

I used to be one of those people that saw some difference between "internal" and "external", that external arts like boxing didn't have the subtleties that the internal arts had. Then I met some high level boxers (yes, high level boxers), and I realized that their skills were just as subtle.

 

as for showing someone what your art is about, well if your a taiji man then there is nothing like dropping them on their but or shooting them across the room. action speak louder than words.

 

metta

adam

 

I totally agree.... but across the board, it's the taiji people that don't live up to that when compared to say, boxing and wrestling.

 

Thanks for all your replies.

 

Maybe I am confusing myself, I am happy to be training and enjoy it but I have difficulty explaining what I know to people who aren't aware of the subtlety involved in Taiji. Obviously it is best to 'show' how this works but that's not always possible.

 

Maybe 'Sloppy Zhang' is correct in that body mechanics are used efficiently whatever the system; I think that is what I was struggling with. From speaking to martial artists you can say: "oh yea we have this technique which is the same as your way..." and I do agree with that.

 

At high levels are all systems fundamentally the same? Its basically the internal/external debate ad infinitum. I think the problem is when you begin to talk about effortless skill and using non-force because people just think you are nuts!

 

I do practise Zhan Zhuang but haven't tested my skills for a while, my sparring partner is injured at the moment so we cannot throw each other about.

 

Sorry to bother you all.

Peace.

 

In books by Yang Jwing Ming, he uses the saying that, "external arts flow from external to internal, internal arts flow from internal to external." Being that, at the highest levels, they encorporate the same techniques. It doesn't always mean they train in the exact same techniques (so I taiji person might not start doing karate makiwara training ) but some principles would overlap.

 

I'm no longer one of those people that like to draw some distinction between "internal" and "external". Again, if you look at some expert boxers, wrestlers, they use the same principles that taiji uses.

 

As for using non-force and stuff like that, just watch some fights from some of the top names in MMA. They do some pretty crazy stuff from time to time, and they've pulled off some really effortless throws. They amaze the announcers, they're like, "it's like they didn't even touch them!" it's just that a lot of MMA guys don't go around SAYING "oh well I can throw them with effortless force" and things like that, which of course everyone just wants to see proven. They also don't say things like "I used superior qi to win" which is another controversial topic in the MA community.

 

Anyway, no matter what you decide to do, the highest levels will lead you to similar techniques.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Naziri]

Here is a principle: Habeas Corpus. Produce the body. Where are these expert martial artists, trained in different styles, who share all the same principles? Please start by identifying them. Then, we can consider whether their specific shared principles are anything more than trivialities.

 

There are a huge amount of expert martial artists trained in different styles that see commonalities. It doesn't mean, as the original poster suggested, that they are all the same, but there are great similarities of many styles.

 

The very fact of Sun, Lu-T'ang coining the phrase "Nei Jia" for Xingyi, Bagua and T'aiji demonstrates this, and of course he was a master of all three... It was once he learned T'aiji that he saw the principles did not contradict and in many ways overlapped (and in all ways complemented).

 

Peace.

[Martial Development]

There is no such thing as martial arts, much less any such thing as internal martial arts, and these skills do not converge at one apex. It is all a fantasy.

 

Anyway, I'll stop raining on your parade now. When your high-level Taiji skills look exactly like Xingyi--form is principle--please put it on Youtube so the rest of us can learn.

[Sloppy Zhang]

There is no such thing as martial arts, much less any such thing as internal martial arts, and these skills do not converge at one apex. It is all a fantasy.

 

Anyway, I'll stop raining on your parade now. When your high-level Taiji skills look exactly like Xingyi--form is principle--please put it on Youtube so the rest of us can learn.

 

I don't know what you read that made you construe what I'm trying to say as "high level martial arts will look the same." If I said something to that effect, it was my mistake and I apologize.

 

Just because someone is using similar principles (similar, not the same) doesn't mean they will look the same. Form is a principle, yes, a principle, one principle. And, again, just because two people are using the same principle, doesn't mean they will use it in the same way, or in the same shape

 

Your martial development is obviously on a level that is not within my ability to comprehend. But I have found that many practitioners of certain arts, not to mention the masters of certain arts, have a closed mindedness about them, and are unwilling to recognize valuble things within other systems. This inability to recognize comonalities in other systems is something that will, if you don't mind me saying, hinder the martial development of everyone.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Spirit Ape]

I agree with Sloppy, Boxing is by far a more internal striking art to most Traditional Kung Fu systems because Boxers train there hands in all areas, speed, timming, bags, plus they have better cardio and during a fight in the ring they can breath properly and not use all force to last 12 rounds. That is proper internal breathing, proper power releasing and saving energy/chi. They are well conditioned more then most External and Internal martial artist.

 

Form work and stnding still isnt all internal is about! You need to understand extreme force and how far your body can be pushed to learn about true softness and stillness. Most internal martial artist cant last 2-3 rounds in a boxing ring i guarentee. This is not an attack on our loved arts but its reality, be it in a ring or street fight, they can still last as long as rounds on the street and in the ring.

 

My 2cents

 

Ape

[Andrei]

When your high-level Taiji skills look exactly like Xingyi--form is principle--please put it on Youtube so the rest of us can learn.

 

Does this look close enough to XingYi to you?

 

CPYtoFllHy8

 

J4w_62WX9Rk

 

HN88QIsMHqA

[orb]

I agree with Sloppy, Boxing is by far a more internal striking art to most Traditional Kung Fu systems because Boxers train there hands in all areas, speed, timming, bags, plus they have better cardio and during a fight in the ring they can breath properly and not use all force to last 12 rounds. That is proper internal breathing, proper power releasing and saving energy/chi. They are well conditioned more then most External and Internal martial artist.

 

Form work and stnding still isnt all internal is about! You need to understand extreme force and how far your body can be pushed to learn about true softness and stillness. Most internal martial artist cant last 2-3 rounds in a boxing ring i guarentee. This is not an attack on our loved arts but its reality, be it in a ring or street fight, they can still last as long as rounds on the street and in the ring.

 

My 2cents

 

Ape

 

very well said, my friend

Edited August 6, 2009 by orb

[Mal]

[dwai]

I'm slightly lost in my training and wanted to ask your thoughts.

 

Firstly a question: do you believe all martial systems ultimately become alike? I mean in the sense that they all teach the same ideas/principles and so forth? If so what would they be in your opinion?

Is the internal aspect this high-end principle which unites arts?

 

I study Taijiquan and Qigong as some of you may know but I'm struggling to describe my path as a martial artist to those who are unfamiliar with the subject. Indeed how does one explain internal aspects, yielding and Qi to people who might be more used to hard skills like boxing or wrestling?

 

Your thoughts would be of interest mostly in relation to internal martial arts.

 

Peace.

 

Hi,

 

My take on it is as follows:

 

Taiji Chuan (or Bagua, Hsing-I) take a long time to develop proficiency in (especially the true Internal power aspect) as compared to Hard MA such as Karate or the Shaolin styles. Though Taiji is an excellent MA, it's power comes from the Cultivation techniques it teaches. My teacher says Taiji Chuan can be learnt to acheive the following objectives (from the Lowest level of refinement to the highest level, as presented below):

 

1) Martial Applications

2) Healing Applications

3) Nourishment

4) Merging with Tao (spiritual aspect)

 

As far as the MA angle goes -- The Internal Arts are more powerful but take a longer time to develop. So till say, the Taiji Chuan practitioner can use Fa Jing effectively and has learnt to cultivate and use the 8 energies with the 5 directions he/she will not be effective in demonstrating the power of his art.

 

As far as I know, the Hard MA might teach Internal Aspects at the highest level (higher Black belt level)...but none know of or practice the Internals like Internal MA do...and certainly don't have the mechanics developed enough to take the practitioner beyond level 1 (as shown above).

[Li TaoRen]

The power of internal martial arts lies in focusing the all of the bodys power to project at one point. Ultimately we will train the qi and shen to follow. The stillness and slowness is used as a tool to study and control the physical body. Then one can go from soft to immense hard power- snap! In the internal martial arts the tendons are like springs, the spiraling motions winding the spring, and -pop! These are some ways my teacher explained.

Thanks for all your replies.

 

Maybe I am confusing myself, I am happy to be training and enjoy it but I have difficulty explaining what I know to people who aren't aware of the subtlety involved in Taiji. Obviously it is best to 'show' how this works but that's not always possible.

 

Maybe 'Sloppy Zhang' is correct in that body mechanics are used efficiently whatever the system; I think that is what I was struggling with. From speaking to martial artists you can say: "oh yea we have this technique which is the same as your way..." and I do agree with that.

 

At high levels are all systems fundamentally the same? Its basically the internal/external debate ad infinitum. I think the problem is when you begin to talk about effortless skill and using non-force because people just think you are nuts!

 

I do practise Zhan Zhuang but haven't tested my skills for a while, my sparring partner is injured at the moment so we cannot throw each other about.

 

Sorry to bother you all.

Peace.