A question about Arahats

[Vajrahridaya]

Thanks Mikaelz. I agree. I studied with Luang Phor Viriyang Sirintharo in the Thai Forest Tradition. The knowledge and experience in meditation I gained was a blessing. I spent some time in a couple of Tibetan schools as well. Vajrayana(black hat) was very interesting, and I found it less dogmatic than most- more practical. I have to say, though, I had many bad experiences with Gelukpa; which some consider Vajrayana. Especially after discussing history with non-monastics, 3 years ago in Tibet. I expected to find alot of contempt for China, but found happy people, who said it was liberating not to be ruled by a certain monastic lineage. Apparently all farmers had to give their crops to the monasteries, so if you didn't want your children to starve to death most of them had to become monks. To me, this is oppressive and tyranical. I do not intend to slander any beliefs... I just believe there was some corruption and power addiction. Why else would you abandon those you say you are to care for? To go and collect money and power from Richard Geres? I am not saying the Dalai Lama, himself is corrupt, as he is obviously not. He was groomed from a young age , and that could include furthering an agenda beyond himself. I may sound harsh, but I do respect everyones beliefs, and see the good in the religious history of Tibet. I mean no offence to anyone, I am in favor of practice and spirituality, but not religion. I think religion has served its purpose, and is too easily corruptible.

 

 

Black Hat is Karma Kagyu under the leadership of the Karmapa. They are a very good lineage with many deeply realized masters. Galugpa's are also wonderful, but mostly they are very scholarly, but they serve a good purpose, not my favorite lineage though. But yes there was corruption in the politics. Not the Dalai Lama himself as he did not even have power during the time he was in Tibet. If you watch the movie, "Kundun". It's a good biography, you'll learn some things. The Dalai Lama is quite realized. He's very highly realized in fact. He's not interested in the politics though he has tried to step down, the Tibetan people won't allow him, so he stay's to serve that purpose. Nyingmapa which is the old tradition, and the original lineage of the Vajrayana that came from Padmasambhava from India which are the ones that generally teach Dzogchen, are the least dogmatic and more about direct experiencing.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[nac]

To me, this is oppressive and tyranical. I do not intend to slander any beliefs... I just believe there was some corruption and power addiction.

Some corruption? Most people have no idea! The Utopian ideal is a myth and Tibet is certainly no exception.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWGGjpJJCKE (this guy's biased, but he's right on many counts)

Edited August 11, 2009 by nac

[Sunya]

Black Hat is Karma Kagyu under the leadership of the Karmapa. They are a very good lineage with many deeply realized masters. Gagyupa's are also wonderful, but mostly they are very scholarly, but they serve a good purpose, not my favorite lineage though. But yes there was corruption in the politics. Not the Dalai Lama himself as he did not even have power during the time he was in Tibet. If you watch the movie, "Kundun". It's a good biography, you'll learn some things. The Dalai Lama is quite realized. He's very highly realized in fact. He's not interested in the politics though he has tried to step down, the Tibetan people won't allow him, so he stay's to serve that purpose. Nyingmapa which is the old tradition, and the original lineage of the Vajrayana that came from Padmasambhava from India which are the ones that generally teach Dzogchen, are the least dogmatic and more about direct experiencing.

 

Gagyupas? lol

[林愛偉]

~~~Venerable master Hsuan Hua

 

Question: We often talk about how arhats and bodhisattvas are different and similar. Will the Venerable Master please explain the differences between arhats and bodhisattvas for us?

 

Master: "Arhats" and "Bodhisattvas" are just terms. This is a matter of difference between people. Bodhisattvas benefit other people while arhats only cultivate for themselves. These are stages of cultivation. As ordinary people, we don't understand the states of arhats. As we go back and forth, deducing and imagining, we will have wasted all our time.

 

 

This is golden, and simply overlooked. When an ordinary living being, one cannot see the states of an Arhat, as an Arhat, one cannot see the states of a Bodhisattva...so on and so forth.

 

While in freshman year, one may meet many sophomores, but they certainly are not experiencing sophomore life and studying sophomore materials. Hence, the freshman can not comprehend what a sophomore goes through.

 

Peace,

Lin

[Vajrahridaya]

Gagyupas? lol

 

OMG!! Man, I hope the Dalai Lama doesn't smack me!! Gelugpa. Sheeesh...

 

Some corruption? Most people have no idea! The Utopian ideal is a myth and Tibet is certainly no exception.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWGGjpJJCKE (this guy's biased, but he's right on many counts)

 

The Dalai Lama had no power. He was being trained, but he also wanted to change the corruption as he saw it. There were many problems, but on another hand there weren't many other types of problems that Western society has. It's complex and not so black and white. Though there were corrupted monasteries, there were also the monasteries that were run by highly realized beings.

[Vajrahridaya]

Also if the Dalai Lama and co. were all such jerks before the Chinese came. The old Tibetans wouldn't revere him so much. They would be like... "Thank goodness that asshole and his crew are gone". But, they all love him and he's tried to step down a few times, but the Tibetan people won't let him. This says more to me than a biased talk. I've also read plenty of autobiographies from old Tibetans and they had a different take on the whole thing. Though, some of them were wealthy, others were not.

[Li TaoRen]

The Utopian idea is only a myth as long as we live in delusion and are ruled by ego. One bad apple spoils the bunch, and with billions of us... and so many bad apples!

Some corruption? Most people have no idea! The Utopian ideal is a myth and Tibet is certainly no exception.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWGGjpJJCKE (this guy's biased, but he's right on many counts)

[Vajrahridaya]

The Utopian idea is only a myth as long as we live in delusion and are ruled by ego. One bad apple spoils the bunch, and with billions of us... and so many bad apples!

 

There are definitely those in all walks of life and places that live the Utopian life, due to self control, release of egoic pride and a good spiritual practice, as well as good karma collected from past lives.

[Guest paul walter]

The Dalai Lama had no power. He was being trained, but he also wanted to change the corruption as he saw it. There were many problems, but on another hand there weren't many other types of problems that Western society has. It's complex and not so black and white. Though there were corrupted monasteries, there were also the monasteries that were run by highly realized beings.

 

 

 

'In Secret Tibet': Theodore Illion. Paul.

[Vajrahridaya]

'In Secret Tibet': Theodore Illion. Paul.

 

It gets really horrible reviews. Sounds like a bunch of garbage.

Book Reviews on Amazon

 

 

I like autobiographies better by real Tibetans.

 

No offence.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Guest paul walter]

Also if the Dalai Lama and co. were all such jerks before the Chinese came. The old Tibetans wouldn't revere him so much. They would be like... "Thank goodness that asshole and his crew are gone". But, they all love him and he's tried to step down a few times, but the Tibetan people won't let him. This says more to me than a biased talk. I've also read plenty of autobiographies from old Tibetans and they had a different take on the whole thing. Though, some of them were wealthy, others were not.

 

 

 

Understand that for Tibetans, when the forces of darkness hover over the land (the Chinese), the enemy of my enemy becomes my friend (the lamas) out of survival imperatives. A nation based on class flourishes on the 'protection' it's citizens demand that come from the bad choices it's rulers make. Also-the rich and the very poor usually agree on most things, the one out of the need to maintain power and the other out of powerlessness/ignorance.

In systems of social hierarchy that are well ordered (usually held in place by a strong religious/tradition foundation) the 'powerful' and the 'powerless' support each other through a reciprocal stale-mate based on unhappiness and the inability to imagine anything better due to the daily chore of 'making-a-living' or of building fear/self-protection based constructs that keep each one in his place.

 

 

When the ideology and the nice costumes are stripped away this is what most national situations look like. Paul.

[Guest paul walter]

It gets really horrible reviews. Sounds like a bunch of garbage.

Book Reviews on Amazon

I like autobiographies better by real Tibetans.

 

No offence.

 

 

 

A 'real' Tibetan (as illustrated many times in 'In Secret Tibet') may be more ignorant of their 'reality' than some undercover German who keeps his eyes open (Illion).

 

 

The idea of biography and autobiography is by it's nature an insane venture-who ARE we;the 'ego' warps our perception of ourselves; things are in flux; what constitutes 'important' events in a life; can we know/trust perceptions...it goes on. I get your point though.

 

The internet and its youth who compulsively post are not the best sources for 'quality' info on book content. Of course it is very re-assuring that it has 'horrible' reviews (I've read the book three times this year) as it tells me something about the true worth of the book. 'Sounds like a bunch of garbage' I take to mean that you are closed to the idea of reading it. Perhaps there are some 'secrets' about some peoples' idea of (their) Tibet that they don't want disturbed? There is no antagonism to this post. Paul.

[Vajrahridaya]

Understand that for Tibetans, when the forces of darkness hover over the land (the Chinese), the enemy of my enemy becomes my friend (the lamas) out of survival imperatives. A nation based on class flourishes on the 'protection' it's citizens demand that come from the bad choices it's rulers make. Also-the rich and the very poor usually agree on most things, the one out of the need to maintain power and the other out of powerlessness/ignorance.

In systems of social hierarchy that are well ordered (usually held in place by a strong religious/tradition foundation) the 'powerful' and the 'powerless' support each other through a reciprocal stale-mate based on unhappiness and the inability to imagine anything better due to the daily chore of 'making-a-living' or of building fear/self-protection based constructs that keep each one in his place.

When the ideology and the nice costumes are stripped away this is what most national situations look like. Paul.

 

Paul,

 

I'm aware of all that. But focusing on the dark half of society doesn't bring much other than a jaded as well as hopeless attitude. I'd rather focus on the good people of Tibet, and the enlightened masters and those that did the hierarchy well and didn't take advantage of the power they had for personal gain. That book supposedly has many holes in it... so, it's also reported to have a general bias. The thing about the mind as it gets what it looks for. Seek and you shall find. I prefer to find the great beings that come out of the incredible spiritual tradition of Tibet and not those that are probably a majority that abused the power. I'm into the rare diamonds in any tradition. Why should I plug my mind with all sorts of junk food? I'll watch Fox news if I want lies and negative takes on everything.

 

The Dalai Lama is obviously a genuine beauty. I've followed him and his mind. My Rinpoche is obviously a genuine beauty who himself doesn't get caught up in the Tibetan junk food and only teaches what is good. Vajrayana has an incredible amount of good and has a large amount of really realized masters from there.

 

Even the Catholics despite so much corruption and horror, has bread some really incredible beings, such as St. John of the Cross, St. Theresa of Avila, St. Francis of Assisi, Hildigard Van Bingen. Even the X-communicated Miester Eckhart. I don't care about the corruption of the Catholic Church. These people saw right to the diamond behind the dirt. There are also really incredible Tibetan Masters, from a much more complicated spiritual system, there were a lot more enlightened beings in Tibet per capita than probably anywhere else on the planet before the Chinese invasion. At the same time, where there's lots of light, those that want to get away with things, have to be even shadier in order to hide from that light.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Guest paul walter]

It gets really horrible reviews. Sounds like a bunch of garbage.

Book Reviews on Amazon

I like autobiographies better by real Tibetans.

 

No offence.

 

 

 

A 'real' Tibetan (as illustrated many times in 'In Secret Tibet') may be more ignorant of their 'reality' than some undercover German who keeps his eyes open (Illion).

 

 

The idea of biography and autobiography is by it's nature an insane venture-who ARE we;the 'ego' warps our perception of ourselves; things are in flux; what constitutes 'important' events in a life; can we know/trust perceptions...it goes on. I get your point though.

 

The internet and its youth who compulsively post are not the best sources for 'quality' info on book content. Of course it is very re-assuring that it has 'horrible' reviews (I've read the book three times this year) as it tells me something about the true worth of the book. 'Sounds like a bunch of garbage' I take to mean that you are closed to the idea of reading it. Perhaps there are some 'secrets' about some peoples' idea of (their) Tibet that they don't want disturbed? There is no antagonism in this post. Paul.

[Vajrahridaya]

A 'real' Tibetan (as illustrated many times in 'In Secret Tibet') may be more ignorant of their 'reality' than some undercover German who keeps his eyes open (Illion).

The idea of biography and autobiography is by it's nature an insane venture-who ARE we;the 'ego' warps our perception of ourselves; things are in flux; what constitutes 'important' events in a life; can we know/trust perceptions...it goes on. I get your point though.

 

The internet and its youth who compulsively post are not the best sources for 'quality' info on book content. Of course it is very re-assuring that it has 'horrible' reviews (I've read the book three times this year) as it tells me something about the true worth of the book. 'Sounds like a bunch of garbage' I take to mean that you are closed to the idea of reading it. Perhaps there are some 'secrets' about some peoples' idea of (their) Tibet that they don't want disturbed? There is no antagonism in this post. Paul.

 

Yes, I have no reason to read it, as how will it help my realization of the nature of all being? I'm quite aware of the dark belly of human activity. I grew up in the "hood", I've seen bullets enter a head, I grew up with drugs all around. I'm aware of our own corruption in our own government. I've lived in many ghetto's in a few of the bigger cities of America. I used to do street things. What do I want to read about the dark side of a tradition that is beautiful at heart. I've heard plenty of rumors about various enlightened beings. I'm sure some are true and I'm sure most are not, because I'm aware of the human ability to cling more to darkness than to see the light. The human animal has a tendency to enjoy the dark mysteries over the mysteries of enlightenment. Kali Yuga is in full swing.

 

Edit: Also, anyone, even enlightened beings will experiment. After having some good strong experiences of the non-dual, one might even do things that others think taboo, but because of the realization of the non-dual nature of things, it's just a play and an experiment. For instance, I don't understand the Taboo of Sex at all. It doesn't make sense to me. Have orgies, experience other people. Not from a space of darkness or rebellion but from a space of true openness, and love for one's humanness.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Guest paul walter]

Paul,

 

I'm aware of all that. But focusing on the dark half of society doesn't bring much other than a jaded as well as hopeless attitude. I'd rather focus on the good people of Tibet, and the enlightened masters and those that did the hierarchy well and didn't take advantage of the power they had for personal gain. That book supposedly has many holes in it... so, it's also reported to have a general bias. The thing about the mind as it gets what it looks for. Seek and you shall find. I prefer to find the great beings that come out of the incredible spiritual tradition of Tibet and not those that are probably a majority that abused the power. I'm into the rare diamonds in any tradition. Why should I plug my mind with all sorts of junk food? I'll watch Fox news if I want lies and negative takes on everything.

 

The Dalai Lama is obviously a genuine beauty. I've followed him and his mind. My Rinpoche is obviously a genuine beauty who himself doesn't get caught up in the Tibetan junk food and only teaches what is good. Vajrayana has an incredible amount of good and has a large amount of really realized masters from there.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, we seem to agree on the same things here. The book is completely biased which means it is less malevolent than all the books that pretend they aren't (or whose authors aren't aware enough to know that they are). Judging by your above comments the book and Illions point of view would be something you could seriously relate to. Paul.

[Vajrahridaya]

Well... I don't know, it seems to be a very negative bias like he had an agenda to prove or something. That's what many of the reviews say at least.

 

Yes, I don't feel quite pulled in that direction to read it. Who knows? But, I have so many books to read already and I haven't even really read a book for about 2 or more years now. I've bought some, but haven't read anything for the most part.

[Guest paul walter]

Yes, I have no reason to read it, as how will it help my realization of the nature of all being? I'm quite aware of the dark belly of human activity. I grew up in the "hood", I've seen bullets enter a head, I grew up with drugs all around. I'm aware of our own corruption in our own government. I've lived in many ghetto's in a few of the bigger cities of America. I used to do street things. What do I want to read about the dark side of a tradition that is beautiful at heart. I've heard plenty of rumors about various enlightened beings. I'm sure some are true and I'm sure most are not, because I'm aware of the human ability to cling more to darkness than to see the light. The human animal has a tendency to enjoy the dark mysteries over the mysteries of enlightenment. Kali Yuga is in full swing.

 

Edit: Also, anyone, even enlightened beings will experiment. After having some good strong experiences of the non-dual, one might even do things that others think taboo, but because of the realization of the non-dual nature of things, it's just a play and an experiment. For instance, I don't understand the Taboo of Sex at all. It doesn't make sense to me. Have orgies, experience other people. Not from a space of darkness or rebellion but from a space of true openness, and love for one's humanness.

 

I'll try not to post again on this since we have no reason to. just to say it is the 'light' that the book embodies (through Illions' continual contrast with the dark) and claims as true spirit/religion that appeals to me. Paul.

[Vajrahridaya]

I'll try not to post again on this since we have no reason to. just to say it is the 'light' that the book embodies (through Illions' continual contrast with the dark) and claims as true spirit/religion that appeals to me. Paul.

 

Well, I wouldn't know... but the reviewers seemed to disagree as he called Tibetans stupid supposedly and ignorant. The reviews don't seem to say much of what your saying. But, the reviewers could be biased and unobjective as well? I don't mind if you actually quoted some things from the book, or revealed some real information from the book if you are so inclined, I don't mind that.

[Guest paul walter]

[Yes, I don't feel quite pulled in that direction to read it. Who knows? But, I have so many books to read already and I haven't even really read a book for about 2 or more years now. I've bought some, but haven't read anything for the most part.

 

 

Well done-that's admirable. As long as our 'mind' goes the same way. Paul.

[Guest paul walter]

Well, I wouldn't know... but the reviewers seemed to disagree as he called Tibetans stupid supposedly and ignorant. The reviews don't seem to say much of what your saying. But, the reviewers could be biased and unobjective as well? I don't mind if you actually quoted some things from the book, or revealed some real information from the book if you are so inclined, I don't mind that.

 

Oh dear, I am in 'chat' mode for the first time ever online and I can't stop! The Tibetans he meets are largely 'stupid and ignorant' as are we all. I think the important part is knowing that he points the blame for this ignorance on lamaism. It is perhaps something whiteys don't want to discuss openly. It's perfectly apt that the 'reviewers' can't see that the book is all about how the 'path' to 'enlightenment' is an entirely individual endeavour (as opposed to institutional directives being followed blindly) as that is not what Tibet represents to the average spiritual aspirin, woops, I mean aspirant. I'm sure books like this can never be popular as they don't take the popular line-simple as logic. I feel that for most readers the fact that there is no pageantry and dramatic accounting in the book, but only the telling of the thoughts that come from what his eyes see, would be a dissapointment to their 'exotic' idea of Tibet as well. It's more critique/appraisal (hence the bias) than documentary (which is bias masquerading as objectivity).

 

 

So his, along with Alexandra Neel's is one of the few accounts there are of outsiders going in disguise into Tibet in the 'pre-Chinese' period. He does it alone, on foot, on a largely raw vego diet (so cooking smoke doesn't attract bandits!), and meets the people 'in their original settings' so to speak. That alone would be worth the price for someone heavily 'into' Tibet and it's spiritual practices. He gets around, sees a 'flying' lama, enters monasteries (bit of James Bond here), meets and talks to nomads, meets what he calls the ' true wise men of Tibet' who live outside the monastic structure, usually in caves, and are wary of lamaism too. The account of these 'wise' people is to me the most wonderfully validating aspect of the book-they are everything the lamas aren't. Illion deeply relates to these men who seem to be a different breed of Tibetan because of their awareness/humility/vegetarianism Also, they are probably the only people in Tibet who wouldn't turn him in to the lamas for imprisonment or worse, even though they are the only ones to see through his disguise. I'm aware the Tibetan traditions have great things to teach us. Paul.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ah well that seems more objective.

 

I don't see a problem with some Lamas, but the vast majority of Lamas are generally speaking, quite heavy with knowledge but not light with wisdom. Of course, that's just the way it is on Earth. A vast majority of unenlightened beings. Eh!

 

There are some really great Lama's though, and some really great Rinpoche's. But yes, even my Rinpoche met his root Guru outside of the system. He was a Tibetan doctor and teacher of Dzogchen, and renowned as a great reincarnate, but he wasn't into all the rituals. He was into direct experiencing and transmission of direct experiencing. You can read Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's account in "Crystal and the Way of Light". It's very interesting.

 

It's also why I'm more attracted to Nyingmapa over any of the other traditions. Karma Kagyu is nice too. But the Nyingmapa lineage is the old lineage directly from Padmasambhava and it's open hearted, poetic, is mostly the tradition that teaches Dzogchen. Sakya 3rd and Gelugpa 4th. Though the Dalai Lama is my favorite Gelugpa, his main practice is Dzogchen and his vision is more that of Rime.

 

Anyway, I might be more interested to read the book now. Thanks Paul!