Follow-up on Kunlun; consequences? ?

[findley]

I asked TexasNative, in the other kunlun thread, if he could describe to me, as elaborately as possible, the changes he has undergone as a result of his Kunlun practice. What have been the consequences of your practices, will you kunlun'ers share?

 

I do have respect for the simple practice. I would like to hear what those who have spent some serious time practicing have to say.

 

Please?

[TexasNative]

I asked TexasNative, in the other kunlun thread, if he could describe to me, as elaborately as possible, the changes he has undergone as a result of his Kunlun practice. What have been the consequences of your practices, will you kunlun'ers share?

 

I do have respect for the simple practice. I would like to hear what those who have spent some serious time practicing have to say.

 

Please?

 

The Kunlun Poll thread gives a good overview. You called it a swamp, yes there is lots to wade through that the practices brings up. As is, and especially including RP I can't recommend it to anyone.

I'm gonna do a two-step out of here now.

[Aetherous]

[findley]

hmmm, oh ! And, the power one feels performing the practice is so tempting !

 

-In the classic taoist texts I have been reading, there is no mention whatsoever of 'cathartic' episodes on the way to enlightenment. (In fact, I am given the impression that it should be a pleasant trip all the way down the road.)

 

-I wonder, if there is anyone willing to answer, if classic Buddhist religion discusses any sort of necessary 'cathartic' episodes on the way to enlightenment?

 

Otherwise, I am left wondering: it is a practice that is cultivating raw power, it seems? -Then perhaps it is the case that it is a mistake to practice for power.

 

There is a classic concept in Taoism: One must be empty to be full. (TTC....)

 

also, 'there may be gold and jade to fill the halls, however there are none who can keep them....'

 

So, is it wise to come to the conclusion that Kunlun is a practice whereby one fills himself 'to the brim' with power, and thereby does himself harm? -That perhaps we should go in the other direction, and aim to empty ourselves, instead.

 

Or, maybe we should consider using Kunlun cultivation as merely a supplementary practice, with relatively little emphasis?

 

Or, perhaps it is too early to come to conclusions? -any other kunlun practitioners have long-term experience they would be willing to share, in this condensed thread?

[Marblehead]

Or, perhaps it is too early to come to conclusions?

 

Yes, let's not draw any conclusions - better to remain open-minded.

 

Be well!

[joeblast]

[Guest sykkelpump]

If red phoenix is what I have heard(creating certain energy pattern in the head).I would stay away from that exercise,thats not natural.and I have heard stories about people doing similar exercises have gotten serious life lasting mental problems,bipolar disorder and other problems.This is also logic for anybody who knows a little about how the chi flows or should flow through the meridians.

The kunlun posture let energy move freely,you are not creating any other energy patterns.And the energy are just moving freely in the meridians.Cant see why this exercise should be dangerous.

This is just my opinion,and maybe I have heard wrong about the red phoenix

[Aetherous]

If you don't practice these things, then why comment? This stuff is beyond the "logic [of] anybody who knows a little about how the chi flows."

 

Try to apply what you think you know, and the results are disappointing. Forget it all, and then you're practicing. And you will learn that you knew about the equivalent of a water molecule on the tip of an iceberg.

 

 

Conclusions are for those who don't practice.

[Guest sykkelpump]

If you don't practice these things, then why comment? This stuff is beyond the "logic [of] anybody who knows a little about how the chi flows."

 

Try to apply what you think you know, and the results are disappointing. Forget it all, and then you're practicing. And you will learn that you knew about the equivalent of a water molecule on the tip of an iceberg.

 

 

Conclusions are for those who don't practice.

 

If I belive it is dangerous I feel I should comment.by the way wasnt you recently complaining about side effects.And I see you comment everywere,why shouldnt I comment here.Are you getting bipolar scotty?

I have done the kunlun posture for some weeks,got the shaking first time.It is not beyond logic.Dont belive kunlun is so special.I found falun gong to be moore powerful and actually a great qi gong.It combines zhan zhuang postures with more normal qi gong movements and in the end it you do sitting postures like kunlun,only diffrent is you sit in half/full lotus.The exersice feels very much the same,without the shaking.

[Aetherous]

Okay, thanks for sharing what you know.

[h.uriahr]

If I belive it is dangerous I feel I should comment.by the way wasnt you recently complaining about side effects.And I see you comment everywere,why shouldnt I comment here.Are you getting bipolar scotty?

I have done the kunlun posture for some weeks,got the shaking first time.It is not beyond logic.Dont belive kunlun is so special.I found falun gong to be moore powerful and actually a great qi gong.It combines zhan zhuang postures with more normal qi gong movements and in the end it you do sitting postures like kunlun,only diffrent is you sit in half/full lotus.The exersice feels very much the same,without the shaking.

 

Doing something for "some weeks" doesnt exactly qualify you to comment on the potency of a certain practice.

 

Sure I guess you can give your opinion but keep in mind that your opinion is a very inexperienced one when it comes to Kunlun.

[Guest sykkelpump]

Doing something for "some weeks" doesnt exactly qualify you to comment on the potency of a certain practice.

 

Sure I guess you can give your opinion but keep in mind that your opinion is a very inexperienced one when it comes to Kunlun.

 

I did get the feel of it,lots of shaking and energy moving.And since kunlun is supposed to work 100 times faster than other practicees I already trained for years .

The main purpose of my post was anyway to warn people about creating energy patterns in the head.

And I have moore than 15 years of experience with diffrent qi gong systems and meditation.Have cured myself from serious nervous system problems and liver trouble.so I feel I have a little understanding about how the energy system in the body works.

Edited August 5, 2009 by sykkelpump

[h.uriahr]

I did get the feel of it,lots of shaking and energy moving.And since kunlun is supposed to work 100 times faster than other practicees I already trained for years .

The main purpose of my post was anyway to warn people about creating energy patterns in the head.

And I have moore than 15 years of experience with diffrent qi gong systems and meditation.Have cured myself from serious nervous system problems and liver trouble.so I feel I have a little understanding about how the energy system in the body works.

 

15 years is great but that doesnt make you qualified. Congrats on the cure by the way.

 

I can say I have 15 years as a carpenter but that doesnt mean I'm qualified to be an electrician, or boilermaker, or glazier.

 

I know whay you're saying but I dont agree with your logic.

[Andrei]

The shaking is supposed to stop when you have clear and unstuck meridians and balanced energy.

I did Kunlun for a couple of months, and I stopped shaking after two days, but that was because I practiced zhan zhuang two years previously and another two years of Hunyuan Qigong daily previously to Kunlun so I suppose I was balanced and clear enough. Anyhow I have a liver problem and I found out that practising Kunlun increased the internal heat in the liver and right kidney so I suppose this is my last issue I need to solve, and I stopped Kunlun several months ago. Do you have any suggestions about cooling the liver/kidney since my system tends to heat up?

 

I really love the five elements maoshan zhuangs and I practiced them afterward to balance the organs, right now I take a break during summer, but I intend to begin the practice again in autumn.

 

By the way, I saw ghosts due to Kunlun practice but not in my home, but when I slept in hotels in Chicago and Boston so I believe it was not me that I attracted them, they were already there and I was just around to see them. I believe Kunlun practice opens the Yin eye and you see what you get or you get what you see

Edited August 5, 2009 by steam

[chicultivation]

...

Edited August 13, 2009 by chicultivation

[Lucky7Strikes]

Hello Friends,

 

I am new to Kunlun and mainly practicing through the book for the last week. Please be patient with me and advice.

 

Anyone here who has not received the transmission from Kunlun teachers, practicing from the book and still having some level of success with the practice?

 

I am trying hard to go with the 100 days retention but can't go beyond 3 or 4 days. Without transmission, is this a big hindrance?

 

I try to hold the kunlun position but by the time my legs begin to slightly tremble, my hands and shoulders ache real bad and I am forced to drop my shoulders to rest. I rest my hands in closing posture and go back to kunlun pose after a while and again within minutes my hands begin to ache. With all this ache, I cant let go and I am focussed on the pain than anything else. This way, I never get beyond some slight trembling of legs. Any advice?

 

I did it from the book and got good enough results (I did eventually go to a seminar). I personally don't think a transmission is necessary, but the experience of seeing others really get into it can give you a sense of what is meant by spontaneous. There are many facilitators and instructors now across the country.

 

If the shoulders hurt, you can let your arms drop to the sides. As you do it more and more and your shoulder blockages open up, you'll notice that holding the posture becomes easier. The hand posture is just to get the energy going anyway.

 

There are many threads here on Kunlun that you can read through. Check out Trunk's posts where he sums things up nicely.

 

It's normal in the beginning to have a difficult time letting go of the mind's habit of controlling the body. But it will eventually happen. The key is feeling the energy move within you and letting it take over.

 

3, 4 days...that's actually a pretty short period between involuntary ejaculations even if you're young...I suggest you learn the upward draw. The best way to do this is internalize in the mind of injaculating the sexual energy to counter your past habit of ejaculating outwards. Learn to control your externally manifested desires. Then pump the kegel muscles to guide the energy from the penis and the testicles into other parts of the body. I suggest reading through the Healing Love section on alchemicaltaoism.com. The transmission doesn't help this, nor is this necessary. But if you're serious about cultivation, you should learn to preserve and balance the sexual energy.

 

Remember, remember, remember to ground. If you don't ground, it is not only is dangerous, but you won't actually be cultivating and refining the energy from the practice.

 

I had health problems come up from doing the practice. Wrote about it in the Kunlun Poll thread. Lately things have been improving. I just had a lot to clear.

 

The warning on the Kunlun Bliss website was adequate:

 

Same here,

 

I've gotten very sick a few times from Kunlun. Very high fevers in the span of 2 months. And after each illness, I've noticed greater clarity and natural bliss running through the body.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[joeblast]

never been sick due to this practice. as far as "personal demons" are concerned, they will thrash to the max like an ego threatened. you can either maintain a level of equanimity, or let them consume you - its entirely up to you what you heed. just like with physical effects - you can either let yourself be perturbed by them, or you can take them with a measure of confidence and grace and have some faith you'll get through them.

 

omg what if that doesnt work?

 

exactly the line of thinking that will keep you from progressing.

[findley]

So the practice is so much more powerful than Ch'an-- than emptiness, and indulging in the mysterious pass-- that it is unique from these systems in the necessity cathartic episodes ?

 

-And, also, is it a mistake to consider kunlun a 'building', 'developing', 'improving' practice, in contrast to emptiness-based practices?

 

Hmmm... maybe I'll supplement my emptiness with some kunlun

 

Hmm, I do kunlun for 10 seconds, and it is obviously a building up of energy

[Aetherous]

Chicultivation,

 

Advice....stick with it.

 

It's okay if you consciously shake the tension out. Doesn't have to be all or nothing; pure spontaneous movement, or no movement. It's good to focus on the tensions that appear, but it's not good to hurt yourself by forcefully holding the arm posture. When it begins feeling tense, move around so it feels comfy again...that's what I do. It's a basic qigong exercise in itself.

 

If you smile a genuine smile all of the time, the upward draw happens naturally, so celibacy isn't as big of a deal. This is just my experience.

[joeblast]

probably the most fundamental aspect is breathing. most know this. establish a calm, gentle breath before you do anything...at all. this in and of itself, being able to effectively sink oneself, immerse oneself in the breath...it is invaluable.

 

no matter what practice you do, this is completely relevant.

 

if you dont stabilize the breath, you will never sink any deeper than the breath; your deeper connection to and stabilization of the heart will not happen; you will not calm your diaphragm and let the pericardium relax and sit comfortably upon it; you will never not feel your breath for a moment that lasts eternity. you will not feel your liver ebb and flow with the rhythm of your heart; you will never feel your kidneys massage your blood stream.

 

until you stabilize your breath, you wont really be able to appreciate the concept of 'letting go.'

 

that in and of itself will solve most any grounding issue, practiced diligently.

 

findley, its absolutely an emptiness practice...yet a fullness practice, a oneness practice...a reason max calls the vibe the 'one law'?

 

perhaps.

 

all of these things...relax beneath them until there simply is no foreground; hence the background becomes the foreground. again, not practice specific.

 

go there first, then see where the rest of your practice takes you.

Edited August 6, 2009 by joeblast

[松永道]

Prior to arriving in China, my primary practice was spontaneous natural movement qigong. This was before I'd ever heard of Kunlun. Rather I learned it from a friend and it ranged from intuitive stretching and yoga postures to shaking, spiraling and twisting. Overall I really enjoyed it and opened up in new ways psychologically and emotionally.

 

Then I learned Vipassana meditation. I began to contain energetic currents that before I would have allowed to push and pull my physical body. I understood the dichotomy: interior stillness, exterior motion; exterior stillness, interior motion. I watched the ten thousand things rise, fall, and return to the origin.

 

When I arrived I was very curious about spontaneous movement qigong and asked many cultivators. Some simply said it's a side effect of energy cultivation best not to indulge in. Others said, as a tool, it's useful for resolving "xieqi" or pathogenic qi. However, everyone advised against it as a long term practice.

 

So if spontaneous qigong is so fast, so powerful - why don't you find it in the spiritual systems of India or China?

 

After further research, particularly of African religions, I discovered there where cultures that practiced spontaneous movement systems. But their main objective is different - it's possession. In Africa and other shamanic cultures, dancing, shaking, spontaneous practices exist to invite the spirit or gods into your body.

 

 

 

PS. On cathartic experiences, every system will produce them. But they aren't discussed as such in the classics. The old sages tended to be rather stoic - at least on the bamboo slats, scrolls, and stones. However, eating bitter (suffering difficulty) is mentioned a great deal, and any study of Daodejing should reveal the life of a sage was far from easy.

 

PPS. Quieting the mind and the mysterious pass are different stages. For example at quiet mind, the ears still hear, but the mind doesn't rouse; at genuine stillness, the ears do not hear.

[findley]

Yes !

I have spent a good time today contemplating the difference between emptiness and the mysterious pass.

 

The discernments are so subtle, they are difficult to recognize.

 

I believe that the only real fruit emptiness may bear, is that it may induce the recognition of the mysterious pass in the practitioner. Unfortunately, I also believe that clinging to emptiness practice will more likely serve to HINDER such progress, as one CLINGS to emptiness. (BLOCKHEAD Zen practitioners.)

 

Ough... Thank you for your comment.

 

I am still just a student. I am only just learning to discern between practices... what a fool I am, to think that I might supplement a cultivation of the mysterious pass, with kunlun !

 

wait, no, I disagree--

 

perhaps it is through the mysterious pass that 'genuine' emptiness may be reached--

 

but also, I believe that perhaps it is key to 'wu-wei'-- one may indulge in the mysterious pass, apparantly in gradations. Therefore, it is possible to 'know' it, however to exist on the temporal plane simultaneously.

 

no? what do you think?

[Guest winpro07]

are you referring to the germinal vesicle?

[freeform]

Song Yongdao,

 

Thanks for your post - very interesting, thanks.

 

I also believe that this form of spontaneous practice originates from the oldest lineages of all - in Africa... However, your understanding of African religion seems really very limited... The kind of evaluation an English gentleman anthropologist might come up with studying the 'brutish barbarians'... They actually have a very developed system and experiential understanding of spirituality... they have the dan tiens, yin, yang, central channel etc... The system is not in any way theoretical, but experiential... talking about it is not what they like to do.

 

So if spontaneous qigong is so fast, so powerful - why don't you find it in the spiritual systems of India or China?

 

Because you don't look hard enough

 

(there are many others - this kind of thing is very anti-theoretical, so you won't read much about it, but you will find it if you're open to it)

[Mal]

Anyone here who has not received the transmission from Kunlun teachers, practicing from the book and still having some level of success with the practice?

 

I am trying hard to go with the 100 days retention but can't go beyond 3 or 4 days. Without transmission, is this a big hindrance?

 

Retention is a midfield that we often play in here @ TTB. Try not to feel bad whatever happens. There was a 100 days thread once, IIRC I don't think anyone got to 100.

 

The book is all you need. A "transmission" comes with the book, again it's as much as you need.

 

I did Kunlun for a year. It enabled me to meditate for more than 20 min, it enabled me to meditate for 1h20m without pain. I had fun. I enjoyed practicing. The best thing was it gave me a peaceful, blissful feeling. I had some minor strange things happen, none were particually important.

 

Speed, power, these are not things to seek and not things to value should they happen.

 

Smile, be happy, love. What more can you want or need?

 

Many systems can give you this, Kunlun was one that helped me.