now an efficient water car

[froggie]

In response to the inefficient BMW hydrogen 7 here. (which i couldb't find back so fast)

I have found this: 1 liter of water per 80 kilometers (at 80 kilometers an hour)

CrxfMz2eDME

Edited August 8, 2009 by froggie

[Herodes]

It is really weird stuff if you think about the implications.

I read about free energy machines in the past. It is often claimed that oil lobbyists inhibit the market introduction of such cars.

[Marblehead]

The hydrogen car is coming. It is just a matter of refining the technology. And when the time is right 'big oil' will not be able to do anything about it. (But they will probably have their hands all over it.)

 

Be well!

[froggie]

Less efficient than the above car, but more efficient than the BMW hydrogen 7

_QZLKcGkA-s

[Herodes]

And when the time is right 'big oil' will not be able to do anything about it.

It just does not make sense that this technology can be suppressed. There are a lot of engineers who develop alternative cars such as hybrid cars. A few years ago, they spend a lot of effort on developing the Toyota Prius.

Engineers are not stupid. Well, i suppose that at least some of them read science journals and internet board messages and try to stay "up to date". They do have internet access and may also try to contact the inventor of these machines.

Do you really think, these guys spend years developing the Prius without thinking about alternative technologies which would make their work obsolete? So you must be thinking that all of them just work for money.

[froggie]

It would be a really good idea to let go of the 'popular ways of talking' like: "Do you really think" etc. and making it sound almost like the other is a total nutcase etc.

Everyone has basically a right to their own opinion if it doesn't harm someone else.

 

It would be better to just keep it general and not personal.

 

Just observing..... (a not that great trend)

It's a great way to put yourself up for less 'credits' though.

 

....something like that

 

It just does not make sense that this technology can be suppressed. There are a lot of engineers who develop alternative cars such as hybrid cars. A few years ago, they spend a lot of effort on developing the Toyota Prius.

Engineers are not stupid. Well, i suppose that at least some of them read science journals and internet board messages and try to stay "up to date". They do have internet access and may also try to contact the inventor of these machines.

Do you really think, these guys spend years developing the Prius without thinking about alternative technologies which would make their work obsolete? So you must be thinking that all of them just work for money.

Edited August 8, 2009 by froggie

[Marblehead]

Do you really think, these guys spend years developing the Prius without thinking about alternative technologies which would make their work obsolete? So you must be thinking that all of them just work for money.

 

I have faith in the greed of man. Hehehe.

 

Be well!

 

 

Thanks Froggie,

 

I wasn't offended.

 

Fact is, the oil companies are getting their fingures into alternative energy. They know that one day their oil will not be needed as much as it is now. They want to share in the profits of the future.

 

Be well!

Edited August 8, 2009 by Marblehead

[Herodes]

making it sound almost like the other is a total nutcase etc. ... It would be better to just keep it general and not personal.

You misunderstood me. I did not attack you personally. All i was saying was

1) there are only few engineers who promote the theory of "free energy"

2) it is highly unlikely that the theory is true because only few engineers promote the theory.

3) it is highly unlikely that the rest of the engineers who currently do not promote the theory do so

3.1) because they are too stupid

3.2) because they do not feel responsible for the society

3.3) because they are part of the conspiracy

Edited August 9, 2009 by Herodes

[thelerner]

[Marblehead]

Okay. So my prediction is coming true. There will soon be a hydrogen car. We'll see how Mike does.

 

Be well!

[thelerner]

I admire the gumption of the Popular Mechanics writer. He hears about it, its interesting so he takes the months and expense to create it himself. In the 50's, 60's maybe early 70's you saw much more of that spirit. We had amateurs and small companies working on various flying cars and boat cars, some even going into small production.

 

Being a kids in the 70's we were raised to believe in the coming moon bases and colonizing the bottom of the ocean. On a personal level we also learned through building ourselves. From erector sets to circuitry sets (still around today). We learned about radio by making them(remember twirling the wire hundreds of times around the base?).

 

We made electrical engines from kits, to get a computer game (early 70's) we'd copy 100's of lines of code from magazines. If you make an electrical engine yourself you're less likely to be fooled by strange claims.

 

The kits are still out there, even build your own fuel cell model cars but I don't think kids have the same enthusiasm for it that we did. They're not raised with the same sci fi showing a red blooded americans defeating space aliens with a slide rule, tin foil and knowlege of physics. We watched every space launch. There were living heroes too like Buckminister Fuller, John Lilly etc.

 

Because we did things ourselves our knowledge was more rounded. We were more likely to say show me then take peoples word for it or better yet willing to build models ourselves. Ofcourse no cable TV or DVDs internet and a dozen other distractions didn't exist.

 

 

Michael

[Marblehead]

Hi Michael,

 

Excellent observation. And what you said above is exactly why America (and some European countries) is now a counrty based on the "service" industry as opposed to the "manufacturing" industry, the industry that allow American to become the most powerful nation on the planet.

 

There really are very few things "Made In The USA" anymore. Even the auto industry is falling to external forces. Yeah, we can still send rockets into outer space. Big deal.

 

This is where Rome was at the beginning of its fall.

 

But back to the water car. Or even the electric car. These things can become reality - there is no doubt in my mind. Consider the Tesla again. A 244 mile range on a full charge. What if that paint job was capable of collection solar radiation and converting it into electricity to charge the batteries during day-light hours? What if the motion of the vehicle could be captured and converted into electricity (a form of wind power)? What if the wheels were connected to generators to produce electricity?

 

Hey, we don't even repair most theings in the US anymore. When something breaks we throw it away and buy a replacement.

 

Be well!

[froggie]

Hi Marblehead,

 

PV paint and seethrough window solar panels will be possible in the future

(at least if things will continue to go as planned)

[thelerner]

As an active investor I keep an eye on alternative energy. There are breakthroughs coming in solar, but its maddeningly slow. You talk about powering a car through solar, what we have now is a Prius with some panels on top and it creates enough energy to power a fan to cool off the car when its parked. Nice hardly world shaking. (Admission I have an old Prius). To really run a car off solar would mean its electric and running off a home solar grid.

 

Passive heating and cooling techniques could revolutionize home energy use but people don't seem interested in them, some of the modern designs are simple and brilliant. Open floor plans where the basements 'coolness' is freed to circulate through the whole house as well as better window placement and simple coloring changes make dramatic differences.

 

It'd be nice to see a hydrogen revolution, but its still speculative. I'm betting we'll see a heightened reliance on natural gas before real greening comes into play.

 

 

 

Michael

[froggie]

You misunderstood me. I did not attack you personally. All i was saying was

1) there are only few engineers who promote the theory of "free energy"

2) it is highly unlikely that the theory is true because only few engineers promote the theory.

3) it is highly unlikely that the rest of the engineers who currently do not promote the theory do so

3.1) because they are too stupid

3.2) because they do not feel responsible for the society

3.3) because they are part of the conspiracy

 

Oh i know, but it's just that if you break it down (psychologically and everything) then attempting to write: "do you really think ***" is more like pointing fingers and blaming someone for not knowing, while if one would keep it general and open it's a totally different ''vitual scenario'' (if you will, really. there's always different ways to 'get something', so i can't be right all the time or with everything, one might suppose.

 

i'm not pointing fingers either, it's not that it's like unbareable, but just types of interaction which can make quite a difference. (like a salesman, it's not a great example, but someone who sees the difference between approaches has slightly more success than someone who doesn't regard it. ....and i should probably know because a nephew of mine has been the most succesful salesman of Volkswagen/Porsche for some years in a row, he does this by listening to any customer and never forces anything on anyone, also he simply does his best to be genuinely nice and does all he can to make a good deal for the customer also (within allowable margins ofcourse, he can't sell something for less than it cost ofcourse. etc.)

 

to some it may sound unusual that someone who doesn't force anything on someone else in net effect actually sells more than someone who does force someone (probably the latter also marginally sells more than someone doing nothing at all, but the top winner seems to be the one who doe neither of those and simply pays attention. i'm sure that he finds his actual job also more pleasing in the end in this way. And indeed also people come back more often and are more open (and nicer) by themselves also.)

 

It's the same difference as someone attenting something and being really interested, even if they don't know much about the subject at all, the sincerity and interest is worth something, one could say. Than if someone isn't really interested, but still is there. You kind of feel the difference and it makes all the difference sometimes.

Edited August 10, 2009 by froggie

[Marblehead]

As an active investor I keep an eye on alternative energy. There are breakthroughs coming in solar, but its maddeningly slow. You talk about powering a car through solar, what we have now is a Prius with some panels on top and it creates enough energy to power a fan to cool off the car when its parked. Nice hardly world shaking. (Admission I have an old Prius). To really run a car off solar would mean its electric and running off a home solar grid.

 

Yeah. I just a few days ago heard about that with the Prius.

 

Passive heating and cooling techniques could revolutionize home energy use but people don't seem interested in them, some of the modern designs are simple and brilliant. Open floor plans where the basements 'coolness' is freed to circulate through the whole house as well as better window placement and simple coloring changes make dramatic differences.

 

This has been available for some time but I think the hosing industry is avoiding it as the work adds to the initial cost which is all they are interested in. Never mind the savings the buyer would have long term.

 

It'd be nice to see a hydrogen revolution, but its still speculative. I'm betting we'll see a heightened reliance on natural gas before real greening comes into play.

Michael

 

You are probably right in this regard. As well as methane. I have been hearing a lot about it lately.

 

We'll see.

 

Be well!

 

 

 

Hi Marblehead,

 

PV paint and seethrough window solar panels will be possible in the future

(at least if things will continue to go as planned)

 

Yes, the paint I have heard of but not the see-through windows. I can imagine that though - wouldn't be much different from tinted glass.

 

Another subject I like to keep my ears open for is cold fussion. Unsuccessful attempts have been made but maybe one day ...

 

Be well!

[Machin Shin]

It is really weird stuff if you think about the implications.

I read about free energy machines in the past. It is often claimed that oil lobbyists inhibit the market introduction of such cars.

 

I'm still working on expanding the Hydrogen Highway here in New Mexico. While living in angelsnest(www.worldsnest.com) we had executive members of Ford Motor Company and a little later Sanco Drilling Company visit. These people were very interested in creating the Hydrogen Highway and introducing the technology into the companies. The Governor of New Mexico has his ears open for ideas on developing this technology.

 

It's not a simple process and takes time. The executives of these companies know this and have recently added these technologies to their business plans. Auto companies think about things in twenty year segments at least. Lessening the need of oil will happen but it's going to take time... a generation or two.

 

As for water as a fuel source Imagine that a household receives a 3 Gallon pitcher of water each day.

How much water does the house need to use for driving?

 

How much water does the house use for washing?.. for bathing?...for using the toliet?

That three gallons is going to get used very quickly in a family of six(mom dad son daughter daughter dog).

 

But Natural Gas as a source of Hydrogen. Much better and the math is very simple. CH4 versus H2O That's twice as much hydrogen in natural gas as water. And you get to drink!

 

Aidan

[Marblehead]

Hi Machin Shin,

 

Yes, I am aware of that aspect of the technology regarding hydrogen as well. That is the concept of having hydrogen filling stations similar to present gas stations. I thin it is a good concept because out west solar could be used as the source of energy for the conversion from water to hydrogen. (Making a portable energy source from a fixed energy source.)

 

I haven't heard anything about it lately though. No idea why.

 

Be well!

[Vajrahridaya]

YAY! the price of fresh water will skyrocket!!

 

Hi Machin Shin,

 

Yes, I am aware of that aspect of the technology regarding hydrogen as well. That is the concept of having hydrogen filling stations similar to present gas stations. I thin it is a good concept because out west solar could be used as the source of energy for the conversion from water to hydrogen. (Making a portable energy source from a fixed energy source.)

 

I haven't heard anything about it lately though. No idea why.

 

Be well!

 

Oh yeah, that's good, utilize the ever present power of the sun... that's an idea that needed to be implemented yesterday.

[Marblehead]

YAY! the price of fresh water will skyrocket!!

 

Hehehe. I was sure someone would come along with that sooner or later.

 

Be well!

[Machin Shin]

We were calling Hydrogen produced by solar power free range white hydrogen. Black hydrogen is what the oil industry produces to distill oil at the refineries.

 

Solar powered refilling stations are possible. A new infastructure to support the new technology that isn't harmful to the environment. But fuel cells that produce water should be used in environments that are closed and can use the exhaust to support life. Like a space station or living labs on the moon.

 

Solid Oxide Fuel Cells (SOFC) are the type that can utilize CNG as a fuel and produce heat as well. I haven't had any hands on experience with them yet.

 

Permiable Electron Membrain(PEM) are the type that recombine hydrogen and oxygen to produce e-.

 

This type of electrolisis is an interesting use of water. Power(wattage) is consumed by several units to distill then deionize the water. Then this water is run through the PEM to get hydrogen and oxygen (consuming more wattage) and pumped to storage(yet more wattage). These products are then stored. But the storage tanks have to coated in carbon fiber and will need to be replaced because of hydrogen embrittlement.

Then the hydrogen and oxygen are run through a different PEM to get e-(measuured in watts).

 

Problems: AT what scale does the use of this technology become feasible? small personal use is currently costly. Then there's the use of drinking water for fuel.

 

 

I should get out the schematics and figure out the efficency.

 

Aidan

[Marblehead]

Hi Machin Shin,

 

Wow! You tickled my brain cells that time. Got more than I expected. Hehehe.

 

But fuel cells that produce water should be used in environments that are closed and can use the exhaust to support life.

 

Aquaculture maybe? Just guessing. I don't know about the quality of the exhaust water.

 

Problems: AT what scale does the use of this technology become feasible? small personal use is currently costly.

 

Yep. The old tradeoff game. Could the energy for the process have been utilized more efficiently through direct consumption? I think that this is the key regarding electrolysis and hydrolysis. It needs to provide more energy than it consumes and the byproducts must be less hazardous than petroleum based fuels.

 

Be well!

[Machin Shin]

Aqua culture. I'll have to think about it.

 

Some SOFC can use potassium which can also be used for the distillation of Biodiesel. There's something there but I don't know what it is yet.....

 

The system that I was working with was a starting point for living on the moon. SO if your tools make you breath then you had better start doing your work. The more work you do the more you get to breath. Not very pleasant but the view is nice.

 

Aidan

Edited August 11, 2009 by Machin Shin

[Marblehead]

 

The system that I was working with was a starting point for living on the moon. SO if your tools make you breath then you had better start doing your work. The more work you do the more you get to breath. Not very pleasant but the view is nice.

 

Aidan

 

Hehehe. A very good incentive for one to do one's job well.

 

Yes, I think the view of the heavens from the moon would be fantastic. No atmosphere to cloud to perception.

 

And I agree, if man is to establish permanent sites on the moon water would be the most important consideration.

 

Be well!

[Machin Shin]

A simple introduction to ship design or "Living in an enclosed environment and drinking yesterdays coffee."

 

The systems have to add up and support each other with out breaking laws of thermodynamics.

 

System1+System2+System3...+SystemN=Total Power consumed

 

The total power in a enclosed system is equal to or less than the maximum output of the powerplant over time.

(Scotty I need more power! I'm given all that she's got captain.)

 

T.P.=dO/dT

 

Power consumed must be regulated so as to not exceed the maximum output available from the power plant at any given moment. The output of the powerplant is based on the type of plant being used for generation of e-

 

Examples:

A fuel cell has higher efficiencies if it is used to create heat and electricity. But the storage of the fuels is bulky.

 

A nuclear battery will create a constant source of electricity. The amount of electricity decays proportional to the half life of the material being used.

 

Solar power provides electricity in proportion to it's efficiency rate and the amount of sunlight that is available.

 

T.T.F.N.