TAOISM IS A FALSE WAY

[Satori]

Proof of this statement lies in the fact that discussion of practices teachers, methods and opinions gets in the way of true communion with the Tao. Look at this forum as an example.

 

Divine emptiness is enlightenment and this "now consciousness" needs no words.

 

Shut up and practice.

[Vajrahridaya]

Proof of this statement lies in the fact that discussion of practices teachers, methods and opinions gets in the way of true communion with the Tao. Look at this forum as an example.

 

Divine emptiness is enlightenment and this "now consciousness" needs no words.

 

Shut up and practice.

 

Without open hearted and minded discussion how does one clarify the meaning and integrate the various attainments with daily routine and people. Which is really what it's all about, unless you want to be a forest monk who just enjoys baking the cake but doesn't get to eat it too.

[Satori]

Without open hearted and minded discussion how does one clarify the meaning and integrate the various attainments with daily routine and people. Which is really what it's all about, unless you want to be a forest monk who just enjoys baking the cake but doesn't get to eat it too.

Teach by presence.

 

You look happy. Good for you.

[Vajrahridaya]

Teach by presence.

 

You look happy. Good for you.

 

That's only good for people who are sensitive towards your dimension of personal enlightenment. As in every enlightened being channels enlightenment into and through their karma. So, if a person has a karmic connection that's strong to the person from past lives, than presence is all that's needed.

 

Otherwise, one would have to learn other way's, like clever speech, or subtler avenues.

 

Thank you by the way. Looks can be deceiving... but in my case, it's not.

[Aetherous]

Proof of this statement lies in the fact that discussion of practices teachers, methods and opinions gets in the way of true communion with the Tao. Look at this forum as an example.

 

Divine emptiness is enlightenment and this "now consciousness" needs no words.

 

Shut up and practice.

 

Good topic.

[Marblehead]

Well Satori,

 

I do have to disagree with your thread title although you do make a valid point in the body of the thread opening post.

 

Be well!

[Guest winpro07]

I watched an insensitive clod wake up. they were late forties and probably asleep by 8.

The thing that brought them too was complete acceptance of their general presence

that had never been recognisedrealized from without. They had been numbed into

non interaction with their environment by lack of recognition. This is very common in the city

I live in. People are expected to follow the program here very early and children 3-4 show this

There is a necessity to negate essence as something vile. They are still required to carry some light

with them, just to use it in acceptable ways. Most 40's here have nothing left, but still the candle may

be re-lit any time. The flame is behind your own eyes -shine bright

 

Sleep is induced from outside. Awakening is ready to happen twice an hour.

[Vajrahridaya]

I watched an insensitive clod wake up. they were late forties and probably asleep by 8.

The thing that brought them too was complete acceptance of their general presence

that had never been recognisedrealized from without. They had been numbed into

non interaction with their environment by lack of recognition. This is very common in the city

I live in. People are expected to follow the program here very early and children 3-4 show this

There is a necessity to negate essence as something vile. They are still required to carry some light

with them, just to use it in acceptable ways. Most 40's here have nothing left, but still the candle may

be re-lit any time. The flame is behind your own eyes -shine bright

 

Sleep is induced from outside. Awakening is ready to happen twice an hour.

That's beautiful! That's what I felt in NYC. That's what I saw.

 

Take care... Keep that candle lit and burning bright!! Fan that flame!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Shut up and practice.

 

You can think and practice too...

 

And talk and practice...

 

Let findley do his own thing, Kunlun's been discussed enough in positive light. .

[mouse]

Without open hearted and minded discussion how does one clarify the meaning and integrate the various attainments with daily routine and people. Which is really what it's all about, unless you want to be a forest monk who just enjoys baking the cake but doesn't get to eat it too.

 

 

Whats this about forest monks just enjoying baking and not eating? Can you clarify?

[Vajrahridaya]

Whats this about forest monks just enjoying baking and not eating? Can you clarify?

 

Everyone has a phase they must go through in order to reveal themselves to themselves and forest monking it may be a part of it. But, generally it's a way of avoidance, thinking that the appearance of things, and the multifariousness of public life is somehow in the way of realization. so people renounce it as if this were the true way to realization. It can be, if you are in that phase where you need to be a recluse, of course. But, when it all comes down to it, one wants to spread the experience, the feeling, share the good news, even if you don't talk about it per-say and just talk about mundane things, one infuses all mundane activity with the realization of one-taste. The state of realization is enjoyed even more when it's shared. Which is the difference between the Hinayana school and the Mahayana school of thought of Buddhism. If one is not aware of these schools, then it's good to find out things if one's interest is perked as such.

 

In the end one must renounce renunciation, and just recline with the flow, when it's true nature is realized of course.

[mouse]

Everyone has a phase they must go through in order to reveal themselves to themselves and forest monking it may be a part of it. But, generally it's a way of avoidance, thinking that the appearance of things, and the multifariousness of public life is somehow in the way of realization. so people renounce it as if this were the true way to realization. It can be, if you are in that phase where you need to be a recluse, of course. But, when it all comes down to it, one wants to spread the experience, the feeling, share the good news, even if you don't talk about it per-say and just talk about mundane things, one infuses all mundane activity with the realization of one-taste. The state of realization is enjoyed even more when it's shared. Which is the difference between the Hinayana school and the Mahayana school of thought of Buddhism. If one is not aware of these schools, then it's good to find out things if one's interest is perked as such.

 

In the end one must renounce renunciation, and just recline with the flow, when it's true nature is realized of course.

 

 

I wonder how much time you have spent with the forest tradition to make such definitive comments.

 

I have found many of your wide sweeping statements quite contrary with my experiences.

[Vajrahridaya]

I wonder how much time you have spent with the forest tradition to make such definitive comments.

 

I have found many of your wide sweeping statements quite contrary with my experiences.

 

I have spent time in seclusion, many years. I experienced very deep states of whatever...

 

The forest tradition is generally speaking, a hinayana path and not mahayana. But even Mahayanists go through periods of isolation, but they do it with the intention of realizing the nature of things for the sake of all beings. Just look at the Tibetans who go into caves for years and years for retreat, but they come out to give and to socialize and to be with others, drink, play, laugh, listen to music, have fun, give transmission, chant in groups, maybe get a wife and have some kids to help keep the lineage alive.

 

If you read my statement, it's not sweeping, as I said everyone must go through their own phase to phase out attachment to a phase. "My" experience is still subjective and probably necessary for you in whatever point. But, as the Buddha did, once realized, you turn the mirror around.

 

The forest tradition in general follows a different kind of intention, as it's more for self liberation than universal liberation. Though, individuals are individuals and will have their own realization and understanding. But, as a rule, Mahayana is about universal intent for realization.

 

 

 

Besides my intent was not aiming at a specific tradition. I wasn't thinking Thai Forest tradition when I made my statement. I was in fact just speaking in general. Retreat is important, so is renunciation during a certain point in a persons path. I'm just giving another side to the coin, flipping it a bit.

 

Neither good nor bad, heads or tails.

[Vajrahridaya]

Or at least expand the mirror to include the universe... well... it's all so personal really and what one needs for one's life and evolution, which is also deeply subjective and we don't always know what's right, even if it feels right.

 

Anyway... I'm not passing judgement and that wasn't my intention at all. I was just stating a metaphor for the most part.

[mouse]

I have spent time in seclusion, many years. I experienced very deep states of whatever...

 

The forest tradition is generally speaking, a hinayana path and not mahayana. But even Mahayanists go through periods of isolation, but they do it with the intention of realizing the nature of things for the sake of all beings. Just look at the Tibetans who go into caves for years and years for retreat, but they come out to give and to socialize and to be with others, drink, play, laugh, listen to music, have fun, give transmission, chant in groups, maybe get a wife and have some kids to help keep the lineage alive.

 

If you read my statement, it's not sweeping, as I said everyone must go through their own phase to phase out attachment to a phase. "My" experience is still subjective and probably necessary for you in whatever point. But, as the Buddha did, once realized, you turn the mirror around.

 

The forest tradition in general follows a different kind of intention, as it's more for self liberation than universal liberation. Though, individuals are individuals and will have their own realization and understanding. But, as a rule, Mahayana is about universal intent for realization.

 

Do you mean you have no experience with the forest tradition directly? (regarding you sitting in seclusion)

 

I am not familiar with the Tibetans (here I am assuming you mean tibetan monks) but the some activities listed break the monk precepts on no uncertain terms.

 

I find that there are occasions to spread the dhamma (when it is being sought after) and occasions to not speak. Reason being, often by speaking the truth, we can turn many away when the time is not ripe. No seed is planted and we provide more obscuration despite the good intentions.

 

I wish you well on your path.

[Vajrahridaya]

Do you mean you have no experience with the forest tradition directly? (regarding you sitting in seclusion)

 

I am not familiar with the Tibetans (here I am assuming you mean tibetan monks) but the some activities listed break the monk precepts on no uncertain terms.

 

 

 

Nope, I have no experience with the Thai Forest tradition, which is why I said, I wasn't even thinking of that with my comment as it was indeed besides the point. The Buddha ran for a bit, had a realization, came back, saw there was nothing to run from.

 

The Buddha also said, not to be absolutely attached to precepts that are all relative. There is different vinaya for certain beings and certain times, certain samayas that should not be broken and then at times transcended. Root downfalls happen if one is practicing a certain practice and there are various disciplines that if broken, one receives the consequences. It's all very relative and it's not necessary to be a monk to attain the realization of a Buddha.

 

Blessings are all wonderful... and happen in many ways. For you too!

[nac]

Teach by presence.

... when that's skillful.

[Marblehead]

In the end one must renounce renunciation, and just recline with the flow, when it's true nature is realized of course.

 

Nice.

 

Be well!

[mgd]

Proof of this statement lies in the fact that discussion of practices teachers, methods and opinions gets in the way of true communion with the Tao. Look at this forum as an example.

 

Divine emptiness is enlightenment and this "now consciousness" needs no words.

 

Shut up and practice.

In my experience for this to be possible you must ensure certain questions have been answered

in regards to a teacher, and practice when making your choice - and ensure they have been

answered to your satisfaction. Questions like:

 

How many YEARS are behind this teacher and practice?

What lineage is behind this? What proof of lineage can they offer?

What are the teachers credentials?

What are the credentials of the one answering the questions - Are they a student or a teacher? Are they a master? Recognized by whom?

Can they put their money where their mouth is and demonstrate what they claim?

Are the practices natural / spontaneous or forced? Important because you would then have to ask:

Are they qualified to offer guidance should the need arise, as well as provide help for any health issues brought about via the practices?

 

 

In March and May of this year I attended Michael Lomax workshops and have been practicing Stillness-Movement-Gift of the Tao. I did some research about him, paid attention to how he answered questions here on The Tao Bums, read his book, and emailed him with questions before the workshop. I attended 2 workshops and the rest of my questions were answered - I have all the proof I need that the teacher is genuine and that the practices/techniques work. I have no questions now.

 

Get the words over with first, and then the mind will allow

you to shut up and practice.

[markern]

Everyone has a phase they must go through in order to reveal themselves to themselves and forest monking it may be a part of it. But, generally it's a way of avoidance, thinking that the appearance of things, and the multifariousness of public life is somehow in the way of realization. so people renounce it as if this were the true way to realization. It can be, if you are in that phase where you need to be a recluse, of course. But, when it all comes down to it, one wants to spread the experience, the feeling, share the good news, even if you don't talk about it per-say and just talk about mundane things, one infuses all mundane activity with the realization of one-taste. The state of realization is enjoyed even more when it's shared. Which is the difference between the Hinayana school and the Mahayana school of thought of Buddhism. If one is not aware of these schools, then it's good to find out things if one's interest is perked as such.

 

In the end one must renounce renunciation, and just recline with the flow, when it's true nature is realized of course.

 

MOnastaries and seclusion ar like kindergarden and your first years of school. Middle and high school are definitively in society.

[Vajrahridaya]

MOnastaries and seclusion ar like kindergarden and your first years of school. Middle and high school are definitively in society.

 

As I've heard... Samadhi in the cave, but not in the town, ain't real samadhi.

[Marblehead]

Cheeezzze!!! Every time I look at the title of this thread I feel the need to say something.

 

So here goes again:

 

Taoism is a true way!!!!! (But not necessarily the only true way.)

 

Be well!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Get the words over with first, and then the mind will allow

you to shut up and practice.

 

That's right... get the concepts aligned, then you can start shooting them one by one.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I have spent time in seclusion, many years. I experienced very deep states of whatever...

 

 

 

"Many years"? Not just several? I'm impressed. Not many Westerners get to spend many years in seclusion.

Please tell... how many years? Where, when, with who? What is your definition of 'seclusion'? Were you a monk? How did you support yourself? (Shucks, if you were in an ashram, that doesn't really count). You mentioned elsewhere you were from a very modest upbringing... how did you pull it off? I'm sorry, it's not that I'm disbelieving, it's just that I've never met a real westerner other than Ted Kaczinski who was able to live a life of seclusion for many years and then come back to the hurly-burly...Oh please tell!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Gerard]

As I've heard... Samadhi in the cave, but not in the town, ain't real samadhi.

 

 

Yes but you need the cave first...or later...then go back like the Buddha did and others too.

 

Same as Taoism: shut up and walk or embrace the moon. Like this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&hl=...feature=related

 

More feeling and less blubber.

 

 

Do, do, do!

Edited August 15, 2009 by durkhrod chogori