Christian views on Taoism & Cultivation.

[Moonbar]

A request for help to all Taobums.

 

I have been involved almost all my life in martial arts & lately have begun to delve seriously into cultivation practices - I am enjoying it & feel i am making progress

 

I come from a Christian family & was raised happy & healthy

 

Throughout my life i have been constantly 'warned off' my martial arts training by Christian friends & my good ole Mum.

Now im no child (36yr old bloke) but these people do get to me - they speak to me from their 'High ground' & tell me i shouldnt be doing this or that, I tell them i am seaking to know God just as they are but this seems to stir them up into a frenzy of quotes & Bible verses saying that i am being fooled by evil forces.

 

I have 2 friends in Particular - 1, a 7th Day Adventist & the other a Jehovas Witness, they are great people & the SDA i have known since i was 5 so we are good mates

 

Now just once i would love to quiet their judgemental ramblings toward me & what better way to do it than with the Bible itself - surely they cannot dispute it if it is written

 

Does anyone else know of any passages or books within the Bible that do not condemn us cultivators to a fiery hell?

Or anyhting else that can help me with my 'discussions' with these 2 friends of mine?

 

Thankyou all in advance.

 

 

Cheers

[Pietro]

A request for help to all Taobums.

 

I have been involved almost all my life in martial arts & lately have begun to delve seriously into cultivation practices - I am enjoying it & feel i am making progress

 

I come from a Christian family & was raised happy & healthy

 

Throughout my life i have been constantly 'warned off' my martial arts training by Christian friends & my good ole Mum.

Now im no child (36yr old bloke) but these people do get to me - they speak to me from their 'High ground' & tell me i shouldnt be doing this or that, I tell them i am seaking to know God just as they are but this seems to stir them up into a frenzy of quotes & Bible verses saying that i am being fooled by evil forces.

 

I have 2 friends in Particular - 1, a 7th Day Adventist & the other a Jehovas Witness, they are great people & the SDA i have known since i was 5 so we are good mates

 

Now just once i would love to quiet their judgemental ramblings toward me & what better way to do it than with the Bible itself - surely they cannot dispute it if it is written

 

Does anyone else know of any passages or books within the Bible that do not condemn us cultivators to a fiery hell?

Or anyhting else that can help me with my 'discussions' with these 2 friends of mine?

 

Thankyou all in advance.

Cheers

 

 

I remember a friend's friend. They were both doing Kung Fu. nd then this guy was converted by some Genova Witness. They told him that meditation was bad because while it emptied the mind, then all sort of demons fills it.

 

Hmm.

 

I think the truth is that meditation is not good or bad, but an instrument. And is a very powerful and precise instrument. And as every instrument it can be used well or badly. Years ago we had a member of the board who would use martial arts to get strong, and then throw away the energy (sex? I don't remember). So he was using the same tools, but instead of using them to become stronger and healthier he was using them to have fun, and as a side effect becoming weaker and weaker.

 

Essentially he was worse of than if he did not know the practices. He was tapping into his deep jing... just to explode it faster.

 

But then the same practice can be used to make someone healthier.

 

SO I think you will not find definit words about meditation in either direction, because the truth is not black and white. But you could try to

a.) get your friend to admit that meditation can help under the right circumstances.

b.) a good teacher should be able to distinguish the how the what and the when of the meditations to have desirable effects

 

once those pillars are in place you can build on them.

 

FOr example you can ask them to pray for you so that you develop Discernment. Discernment as the ability to distinguish good versus bad. So that you may use your meditation toward a common good.

 

Find meditation teachers that they respect, and that you respect as well.

 

There are also some beautiful Christian meditations. I think right now at Ignazio da Loyla, Santa Teresa D'Avila, and many others.

 

They are more contemplations, and churning. But there is definitly a christian path. A path not grounded in believing but in meditating, and helping others. Maybe you could find some common ground over there.

[phore]

there are many parts of the bible that references martial arts and cultivation.

3 magi who came to pay homage to jesus are mystics (cultivators) of the zoroastrian religion.

 

Moses books make hidden references to the martial arts he was trained in and the cultivation side (he was raised as an egyptian prince so he recieved all sorts of education)

 

jesus stories are obviously a reference to enlightenment (the goal of taoist cultivation) and energy work. He and his disciples passed on their abilities through shakti pat or chi transmission.

 

the old testament prophets like samuel are cultivators. Thats how you get phophetic vision, great strength, ect..

 

basically any holy man or woman would have a type of cultivation, because thats how one goes about becoming a holy man, or talking to god.

 

also check out the mystic and gnostic sects of Christianity. they have the cultivation side of christianity still intact.

 

 

Most likely your friends dont have any experience in these matters personally and are just listening to what their pastor or parents has been saying for years (you can tell because they rely heavily on the bible). This means that their idea of god is a projection of their superego (the sum of societies brainwashing).

 

[Magitek]

Consider that it is OK to cut the cord....

 

They sound like fascists.

 

How about checking out the Nag Hammadi library (gnostic christian texts) ?

 

 

The Gospel of Thomas would be a great place to start

 

Oh yeah, I understand Moses had a kundalini awakening.

[October Gray]

I havn't so much as looked at a bible in years, my friend, so I can't help you with that...

 

But I can say that everyone must find enlightenment in their own way, no matter the religion, and you cannot force someone to believe what you do.

 

If these people are trying to convert you or simply are too aggressive about their veiws on what you're doing being wrong, you may need to let them go. I understand eveyone has good in them, and I'm glad to know you can see that in them, but I personally do not let people hault my spiritual persuits.

 

Everyone has their Way, and choosing to stay friends with them or not is a path you must decide for yourself. It will effect other aspects of your life, as well.

 

I hope I have been of some help, and I wish you well.

[Moonbar]

Thankyou a great place to start

 

Magitek, thankyou very much, do you have the verses that speak of Moses awakening? that sounds just what im looking for

My friends are not bad people they are just trying to help me 'I guess'

 

Phore, Yes my friends do not have any experience of cultivation or martial arts could you tell me where in the Bible some of these references are? You seem to have a very indepth knowledge - thankyou

 

Pietro, thanks for your reply Ive discussed the benefits of martial arts & meditation with my friends & their reasoning is that these 'benefits' are false gifts bestowed upon people by demons to trick them into believing they are coming closer to God - dude they have answers for EVERYTHING

Rational discussion does not work with them, they only believe the word of God - The Bible, & if its not written in there then its the path to destruction

My knowledge of the Bible is only Sunday school level so thats why i need this help from The Bums.

 

Cheers.

 

October Gray, very wise words - thankyou.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Moonbar

[enouch]

A request for help to all Taobums.

 

I have been involved almost all my life in martial arts & lately have begun to delve seriously into cultivation practices - I am enjoying it & feel i am making progress

 

I come from a Christian family & was raised happy & healthy

 

Throughout my life i have been constantly 'warned off' my martial arts training by Christian friends & my good ole Mum.

Now im no child (36yr old bloke) but these people do get to me - they speak to me from their 'High ground' & tell me i shouldnt be doing this or that, I tell them i am seaking to know God just as they are but this seems to stir them up into a frenzy of quotes & Bible verses saying that i am being fooled by evil forces.

 

I have 2 friends in Particular - 1, a 7th Day Adventist & the other a Jehovas Witness, they are great people & the SDA i have known since i was 5 so we are good mates

 

Now just once i would love to quiet their judgemental ramblings toward me & what better way to do it than with the Bible itself - surely they cannot dispute it if it is written

 

Does anyone else know of any passages or books within the Bible that do not condemn us cultivators to a fiery hell?

Or anyhting else that can help me with my 'discussions' with these 2 friends of mine?

 

Thankyou all in advance.

Cheers

 

 

 

 

When God visited the temple of babel he said''Nothing shall be restrained from them which they have imagined to do'' So right there you have the creator commenting on the imaginative faculty of human beings.The appostle Paul when he visited mars hill debated wih their philosophers but agreeing that ''in his Spirit we both move,live and have our being''[book of acts] Jesus said ''out of your belly will flow rivers of water'' some chi pratices are referred to as water practices.Prophets in the old testament used musical instruments to enter the estatic states to prophesy.

 

As long as you don't compare anything to the creator you're all good.The christians and muslims have a saying '' the distance between the creator and the creation is the distance of infinity'' Very clearly the God of Israel has a personality and demands strict loyalty.So don't call him shakti or other impersonal forces or confuse natural forces[chi] as being the creator and you should have no worries.Regarding spritual warfare.. a deleverance minister I know of who tends to cast out demons[a medical doctor too!] warns against constantly emptying the mind.Ken, a student of Wang Liping also cautions against just doing that.If you find your mind becoming slugish she advises[the doctor] a steady regimen of mathematics and critical thinking, so as to strengthen your native willpower.True, pure cultivation is great!

[Erdrickgr]

I am still familiarizing myself with Taoism, so I don't know if this is relevant, but one thing that comes to mind when I think of things like meditation from a Christian perspective is this passage by Saint Gregory:

 

"For we ought to think of God even more often than we draw our breath; and if the expression is permissible, we ought to do nothing else. Yea, I am one of those who entirely approve that Word which bids us meditate day and night (Ps. 1:2), and tell at eventide and morning and noon day, and praise the Lord at every time; or, to use Moses' words, whether a man lie down, or rise up, or walk by the way, or whatever else he be doing--and by this recollection we are to be moulded to purity. " - Gregory the Theologian, Oration 27

 

I'm not sure what to say other than that, partially because I'm unfamiliar with Taoist cultivation practices, and partially because I suspect that Christian practices are probably different than Taoist ones. I do know that there is a book called Christ The Eternal Tao, which seeks to show similarities between Taoism and Christianity, but I don't think it focuses on cultivation practices in particular (though I'm not sure, it's still on my to-read list). If Taoist cultivation practices can in any way be compared to Christian meditation, then certainly you can tell these people that there is a long history of Christian meditation practices. I am more familiar with the practices of the Christian (near) East, such as the Jesus Prayer, which is where the person says "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" (or a similar saying) repeatedly, until you can fulfill Paul's admonition to "Pray without ceasing" (1 Thes. 5:17). I don't know how similar such practices are to the cultivation practices that you're speaking of though.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Erdrickgr

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

If they were Catholics, I would have a TON of material for you. The Christian mystics for the medieval period have some really great stuff. Unfortunately 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses tend to have a lot of hatred for the Catholic tradition, so I do not think those texts will necessarily help you much. For your own personal practice, though, you might want to pick up a copy of the works of Meister Eckhart, a Christian mystic who really brings all of the spiritual enlightenment stuff together with Christianity in a beautiful way. And like it or not, all of the religions to come out of the Millerite movement were heavily influenced by the mystical traditions of old.

 

Maybe it would be fruitful to bring up Ellen White, the co-founder and prophet of the early Adventist church. I have not read her collected works, but from what I know she received many visions of the kind received by the medieval Christian mystics (Jesus as the bridegroom, etc.). If I know more about the tradition I could giude you further.

 

 

 

As for meditation, the defense that it opens you up for demons is very stupid when you think about it. It is based upon a misunderstanding of what meditation does to the mind, which comes from the phrase, "emptying the mind." Of course, though, the mind is not empty at all during meditation. What happens is the mind becomes radically stilled, like a pond with no ripples. If you believe in demons then, this is what would happen: A demon enters into a meditative, still mind and creates lots of ripples. The person instantly notices and uses their mental power/will power and pushes the influences away with ease. Now, a demon enters the mind of a normal person and creates one more wave among thousands. How could the person tell that they were being attacked? How could they tell if they were hearing their mental voice or the demon's? How could they even tell if they were controlling their actions or if the demon was?

 

In reality (again, if you believe in demons - even if they are archetypal) the person who does meditation has created the perfect defense. If he then couples it with faith, the light of God will shine through the stilled mental space without any doubt or other thoughts to hinder it.

[-O-]

..

Edited August 25, 2009 by -O-

[Ryan T.]

Now just once i would love to quiet their judgemental ramblings toward me & what better way to do it than with the Bible itself - surely they cannot dispute it if it is written

 

You will not be able to change the minds of "judgmental" people by trying to use their own verses against them.

 

1)They may resent it and find it disrespectful.

 

and

 

2)People can always find something else to validate their own positions, Christian or otherwise.

 

 

I say be okay "agreeing to disagree" about such things. Their words may still bother you, but it is really just another test on your journey.

 

Ultimately, a man can only prove himself through his actions. Continue your practice and live a life of integrity. If that doesn't prove the validity of your arguments to these people then nothing will.

[Fox]

I didn't thoroughly read this topic as much as I should have, but this makes me cringe a little.. it always does.

 

I was raised in a Catholic environment but.. a really liberal one... I know, right??

 

I went to a Catholic highschool which in class we discussed the issues with the church and why the issues mattered, we discussed other peoples views of the church, we discussed world religions and philosophies and how they differed AND COMPLIMENTED one another.

 

And as an unintentional side product, I know believe in various thoughts and they all sort of help us along the way, the path. I became a person who sees how religions compliment one another and how beautiful it is to transcend the ideas of a right way.. A very deep seeded view that I hope you guys can understand without me having to try to get in depth to.. Basically I just am fascinated and inspired by various schools of thought.

 

I did some music work for a catholic church this summer where the priest gave a homily (sermon) on Taoism and how Christianity and Taoism compliment one another, I want to see if I can find the priest (he was just filling in for another, not the usual one) and get a copy of his homily. It was beautiful and opened up the eyes and ears of many.

 

There are many christians who use eastern philosophies to compliment theirs, including priests and preachers.

 

You'll find these people though. You'll find the people who make it about damnation, make it about how to pray how to meditate, they make it about everything but right now..

 

There are varioussss, numerous, types of Christian meditation. Prayers are very similar to mantras, and if you've read The Accidental Buddhist, you'll find that quakers meditate together once a week, and there is a chapter in that novel that compares it to buddhist meditation.

 

This is what usually grinds my gears.. I have been very at one, at peace with myself, and others, but it just seems when people "don't get it" and they use anger to convey their different opinion, it just sets me back a bit, it's something I am working on.

 

I worked with a girl who wouldn't want us to read her horoscope in the news paper in the mornings because it was wiccan.

 

Sigh..

 

Okay this was nothing more than a ramble but I'm just saying I can relate and I wish you all the patience in the cosmos.

[Creation]

"We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ." (2 Corinthians 10:5)

This just about screams "meditation" to me .

 

"For in Him we live and move and exist" Acts 17:28

What is a way to become more conscious of this Immanence of God that if it wern't in the Bible many Christians would call Pantheistic? Meditation.

 

"In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." Romans 8:26

How can we become more in touch with these divine workings inside of us deeper than our minds? Meditation.

 

One thing Western Christianity has inherited from Greek philosophy is the identification of the rational faculties with the "soul" or "spirit" (not to mention the confusion about soul and spirit in the first place). To borrow from another philosophical system to correct this, the soul is the subtle aspect of the material nature (mind, intelligence and false ego) which is still corrupt, and the spirit is the Atman, the truly divine part of a person.

 

In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, there is a phrase "God became man so that man could become God". A Biblical reference is "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." (1 John 3:2) This purification to a divine state is a combination of man's pure efforts and God's grace, (which from the viewpoint of eternity are inseparable) is the sum total of Christian spirituality, IMHO.

 

Here is some fun speculation. Feel free to take it with a grain of salt. Consider Daniel learning all the secret disciplines of the Babylonians. He no doubt astrology, alchemy, etc. like all the other wise men of Babylon. But the only thing the Bible records him refusing is their food. Also, consider Jesus going up to the mountains to "pray" during his ministry. Why does a divine person need to pray (in the usual sense, i.e. ask things of God)? I am convinced he was doing something more like mediation to purify himself of all the crap he accumulated from preaching to and helping large numbers of people.

 

Paul's exhortation pray without ceasing has already been quoted. To do this one must move beyond discursive prayer ("God, please give me a new car", etc. or even "spiritual" things like "God give me wisdom"). There is a whole Christian tradition of Contemplation or Contemplative Prayer, which is more or less Christian meditation.

 

About contemplative prayer:

Historical things to look into: Desert fathers, Cloud of Unknowing, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross.

Modern authors to look into: Thomas Merton, Basil Pennington, Thomas Keating

(These are mostly from the Western Tradition, a lot of good Eastern Orthodox stuff is available too)

 

From a Jewish/OT perspective on meditation, try Aryeh Kaplan's Meditation and the Bible. Kaplan was both an Orthodox rabbi and Kabbalist. The book goes into how the OT prophets were meditators and that's how they received their visions.

 

Incidentally, from the Taoist perspective mediation can be dangerous. The power generated can attract spirits, including evil ones, and it does "open you up" so if there is a strong evil spirit around and you are not very strong and awake it could come right in. (Of course, if you are meditating "right" this won't happen, but no one does that when they are first starting) But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! There are things to do to protect yourself (try praying ) and don't meditate in places that feel negative to you.

 

An opposite caution for Christian meditators is to attribute every little thing that happens in meditation to "God" or "The Holy Spirit". Chi / Kundalini energy is not the Holy Spirit (although the case could be made that the intelligent "Shakti" is related to the Holy Spirit, but whatever...), and most stuff that happens in the beginning is mental wind anyway.

[宁]

Hello amigo,

 

this battle you can NEVER win, because they are being backed up by STRONG DOCTRINE, meanwhile you're steps towards a new perspective are still small and shivery.

 

this is a battle that can not be won with arguments, or proof.

 

it's about you having your daily practice, and that's all there is to it.

if possible, the fiewer the 'friends' that know about your views, the better.

try to talk about these things ONLY with people that have simmilar views.

here you have a good environment for it... snoop around, the goods may lie just around the corner

 

it will save you a lot of time, alot of headache and heartache.

but for pity's sake, don't try to 'convince' them, or to 'save' them...

if not for another reason, then for this one: no one really knows what is Out There, and everyone makes wild guesses about it. you'll soon have your share.

 

be well

 

L1

[phore]

thing about it is: The bible is written in symbolism. its kind of like a secret code. ive never met a "christian" who understands the code.

 

 

I recommend that you grab "the message" bible. either the normal or the remix. Its translated from the original greek. Its actually a pretty good read. Theres no old english so its not so arcane. Clear your mind of what people have told you about the bible and read. you will come away with a totally different understanding.

 

the message audio bible on amazon.com

 

Then buy man and his symbols by carl jung. Apply what you learn to the bible.

 

man and his symbols audiobook on amazon.com

 

the above is probably your best bet. when you can talk circles around your christian friends concerning the bible and its contents, they might back off. When you understand jungs stuff you might make them cry (or get yourself some taichi partners).

 

the audiobook bible is the best way to go otherwise it will take you FOREVER to read it.

 

Genesis

The symbolism of the garden of eden represents man before he fully evolved. the process of evolution is represented by the snake. the reason why the snake is portrayed as evil is because this evolution allowed humans to develop the ego. The ego is a false self. It is the equivalent of satan in the bible. But the snake also brought knowledge.

You will see that many ancient cultures revered snakes. The greek symbol for a healer is that of 2 snakes entwined on a staff.

the snake represents the kundalini ( a sanskrit term for a raising of energy through the spine that leads to samadhi or enlightenment). known in taoist alchemy as the enlightenment of the kan and li (fire and water).

 

gods word:

pop-christianity takes gods word to mean the bible. In actuality gods word is a concept that has roots in many cultures as well.

The hebrew kaballah (jewish mysticism) illmu kebatinan (sufi or islamic mysticism) and yoga (hindu mysticism) all incorporate a similar concept. there are more but i am not so familiar with them as to be able to speak authoritatively on the subject.

mantra yoga uses mystical syllables to invoke various aspects of god.

in the sufi tradition they use sounds which follow the same idea as mantras.

in kaballah they have similar concepts.

when god is creating the world he uses spoken words. this is a reference to the use of these mantras.

 

joseph of the many colered coat, had the ability to interpret dreams. somewhere around genesis 40. This is a skill you can learn from the "man and his symbols" book. it is based in symbolism.

 

as for martial arts. moses parting the water is similar to some indonesian martial arts practice. there is a reference somewhere in the moses books to throwing down a stave and it turning into a snake. In martial arts it is a common practice to use a small length of rope (kusari fundo i believe) in the same way you would grapple with a jo staff.

 

the jesus symbolism will be easier to see in the message bible, as king james took great pains to hide the references in his bible.

 

as for saul being struck down on the road to damascus. It is the effects of a shakti pat. It has happened to me before.

 

Edited August 12, 2009 by phore

[nac]

You're lucky. I'm a closet Buddhist in a Muslim family.

[Sloppy Zhang]

As someone who was raised Christian (Roman Catholic), and as someone who has lots of Christian friends (of various denominations) and as someone who has talked, debated, and argued, in real life and online, with Christians (from many denominations), let me give you this advice:

 

Use this opportunity to practice "letting go". You can't win

 

Whenever they pull out their quotes, smile and nod. Accept that they are on their path, they are doing what they feel they must do, and you will do what you feel you must do.

 

First of all, different denominations of Christians will require different strategies. You can't argue with Catholics in the same way you argue with a Presbyterian, or Jehovah's witness. In fact, many denominations of Christians think other denominations are just as vulnerable to satan as a meditator or as a pagan

 

On top of that, there's a little thing about satan that Christians are taught: he knows a lot about the Bible, and as he tempts you will try and use the Bible to support his own views (he did this with Jesus, who of course defeated satan with His own knowledge of the Bible).

 

So what does this mean?

 

If you are arguing with a Christian who uses passages from the Bible to support their views, and you, countering their argument, cite passages of your own, well, they will then accuse you of warping the Holy Scripture and all conversation will shut down

 

So, no matter what you do, you cannot win.

 

There are plenty of level headed Christians who, of course, will stop trying to convert you, and let you do your own thing and you let them do theirs. There will be others who are just judgmental and mean, but those people are found in all walks of life, just because they are Christian doesn't make them that way

 

All in all, chances are neither side is going to make any headway in convincing anybody. So take it from me who has devoted/wasted many hours of his life: let it go

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

An opposite caution for Christian meditators is to attribute every little thing that happens in meditation to "God" or "The Holy Spirit". Chi / Kundalini energy is not the Holy Spirit (although the case could be made that the intelligent "Shakti" is related to the Holy Spirit, but whatever...), and most stuff that happens in the beginning is mental wind anyway.

 

Actually, if you know any Latin, the work "spirit" come directly from the Latin word spiritus, which means "breath," or spirare, which means "to breath." This is just like chi, ki, or prana, which all literally mean breath, but also mean energy or life force.

 

Here is what Etymology.com has to say:

 

spirit (n.)

c.1250, "animating or vital principle in man and animals," from O.Fr. espirit, from L. spiritus "soul, courage, vigor, breath," related to spirare "to breathe," from PIE *(s)peis- "to blow" (cf. O.C.S. pisto "to play on the flute"). Original usage in Eng. mainly from passages in Vulgate, where the L. word translates Gk. pneuma and Heb. ruah. Distinction between "soul" and "spirit" (as "seat of emotions") became current in Christian terminology (e.g. Gk. psykhe vs. pneuma, L. anima vs. spiritus) but "is without significance for earlier periods" [buck]. L. spiritus, usually in classical L. "breath," replaces animus in the sense "spirit" in the imperial period and appears in Christian writings as the usual equivalent of Gk. pneuma. Meaning "supernatural being" is attested from c.1300 (see ghost); that of "essential principle of something" (in a non-theological sense, e.g. Spirit of St. Louis) is attested from 1690, common after 1800. Plural form spirits "volatile substance" is an alchemical idea, first attested 1610; sense narrowed to "strong alcoholic liquor" by 1678. This also is the sense in spirit level (1768).

 

 

Simply calling it the "Holy Spirit" carries a huge amount of theological meaning. It is clear that the reason it was so called was because God breathed into Adam and the breath was what gave him life. When you die it is the breath, or the animating principle/energy, that leaves your body. Just from the words "holy spirit," it cannot reasonably be imagined any other way than as a particular type of divine "chi" that animates or moves through a person.

 

I personally think that it relates best to the Taoist idea of Te (roughly Virtue), or the manifest principle of the Tao that resides in cultivated individuals. I think that is why I prefer the translation The Classic of the Way and Its Power for the Tao Te Ching, over The Way and Virtue Classic.

 

_____________________________

 

But anyway, I defiantly agree with the many people who have already said it: You are not going to be able to convince someone of something that they do not want to hear. If they are open, these are things that you can talk about, but if they are just trying to strong arm you into compliance... then trying to push back will not accomplish anything. It will only ruin friendships and harm familial relations. This is why I do not talk politics with many of my co-workers (I want to discuss and they want to convert or fight, so I walk away).

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

 

gods word:

pop-christianity takes gods word to mean the bible. In actuality gods word is a concept that has roots in many cultures as well.

The hebrew kaballah (jewish mysticism) illmu kebatinan (sufi or islamic mysticism) and yoga (hindu mysticism) all incorporate a similar concept. there are more but i am not so familiar with them as to be able to speak authoritatively on the subject.

mantra yoga uses mystical syllables to invoke various aspects of god.

in the sufi tradition they use zickrs which follow the same idea as mantras.

in kaballah they have similar concepts.

when god is creating the world he uses spoken words. this is a reference to the use of these mantras.

 

In Christianity, this is The Word, or the logos λόγος, from the first line of the Gospel of John. Logos literally means word, reason, or thought.

 

"In the beginning was the Word/logos, and the word/logos was with God, and the Word/logos was God."

 

And again, "And the Word/logos became flesh."

 

I emphasized the use of the original Greek word logos, because it seems to carry more of the idea of the impulse before speech. In Zen this is called nen, and it is the underlining pressure that gives birth to the discursive thinking mind (and therefore, it also gives birth to the separation from unity into duality, multiplicity and form).

 

Now compare this to the Tao Te Ching, where one gives birth to the two (yin and yang), which births the three (heaven, earth and man/flesh), which give birth to the ten thousand things/everything. And all of this is triggered by ming or the named (logos), which the TTC tells use in chapter 1 gave birth to the 10,000 things. Remember also that the very word Tao can also mean "to speak."

[goldisheavy]

Now just once i would love to quiet their judgemental ramblings toward me & what better way to do it than with the Bible itself - surely they cannot dispute it if it is written

 

You'd be surprised. People fear unknown. People cling to the old and familiar. That's the nature of conservatism. It's trying to maintain the old and familiar. To preserve. To conserve. To stuff reality into tin cans for long safekeeping. In case... Just in case. To keep it forever the same. Nice and safe. In the cans. Forever. Don't fuck with the cans.

[Creation]

Actually, if you know any Latin, the work "spirit" come directly from the Latin word spiritus, which means "breath," or spirare, which means "to breath." This is just like chi, ki, or prana, which all literally mean breath, but also mean energy or life force.

I would be more careful about identifying concepts based on their basic meanings and ignoring context. A culture can use a word with a particular meaning in a metaphorical way to mean something else, but these metaphors do not neccecarily carry over to the other languages along with the direct meaning. For example, the qi and prana. They mean the same thing in an everyday sense, and probably as far as medicine goes as well, but philosophically the Taoist conception of qi is much more broad than the Yogic conception of prana.

 

I have investigated the Hebrew and Greek words relevant to the discussion. So in Greek it is pneuma for spiritus and psyche for anima. Yes, pneuma means breath but to say that is the same philosophically as qi is clearly wrong because many of the Greek associations with pneuma correspond to shen in Chinese. When you get into the Holy Spirit in particular, Jesus and Paul refer to the Holy Spirit as personal (of course, one can debate which texts were added later, are they interpreted correctly, etc. but I am trying to work from within standard Christian doctrine as much as possible) so identification with impersonal life force is a no-go. But this is what I had in mind when I made the remark about Shakti and the Holy Spirit, since Shakti is said to be an intelligent and transformative energy, not just ordinary life force.

 

Anyway, the Hebrew is different. There are two Hebrew words that are be translated spirit: neshama and ruach. Neshama is the one that is related to breath (as in breath of life in Genesis 2:7), but every time the Spirit of God is mentioned in the OT it is a translation of Ruach Elohim. Now ruach is related to wind, so maybe they are not so different, but there are places in the OT (Job 32:8 for example) where they are both used. I don't think the Ancient Hebrews really had a comprehensive philosophy of all this though.

 

Thanks for indulging my need to rant and try to sound smart .

 

Yours,

Tyler

 

P.S. I would really appreciate an answer to my question in the college thread about good schools for genuine intellectual development if you are willing.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Creation

[Meson]

When you get into the Holy Spirit in particular, Jesus and Paul refer to the Holy Spirit as personal (of course, one can debate which texts were added later, are they interpreted correctly, etc. but I am trying to work from within standard Christian doctrine as much as possible) so identification with impersonal life force is a no-go. But this is what I had in mind when I made the remark about Shakti and the Holy Spirit, since Shakti is said to be an intelligent and transformative energy, not just ordinary life force.

 

Anyway, the Hebrew is totally different and very relevant here. There are two Hebrew words that are be translated spirit: neshama and ruach. Neshama is the one that is related to breath (as in breath of life in Genesis 2:7), but every time the Spirit of God is mentioned in the OT it is a translation of Ruach Elohim. Perhaps the ancient Hebrews had a better understanding of qi versus shen than the ancient Greeks.

 

Please do continue sounding smart! That's very interesting, I have also wondered about the parallels drawn between the breath of life and creation in the context of chi/shen. The idea of a personal God being anathema to Taoism (an intelligent and transformative force seems acceptable though).

 

I emphasized the use of the original Greek word logos, because it seems to carry more of the idea of the impulse before speech. In Zen this is called nen, and it is the underlining pressure that gives birth to the discursive thinking mind (and therefore, it also gives birth to the separation from unity into duality, multiplicity and form).

 

Now compare this to the Tao Te Ching, where one gives birth to the two (yin and yang), which births the three (heaven, earth and man/flesh), which give birth to the ten thousand things/everything. And all of this is triggered by ming or the named (logos), which the TTC tells use in chapter 1 gave birth to the 10,000 things.

 

In Zen, how is nen viewed? Is it seen as an involution, or as the natural order of things? Or maybe both?

 

Many thanks.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Meson

[Creation]

Please do continue sounding smart! That's very interesting, I have also wondered about the parallels drawn between the breath of life and creation in the context of chi/shen.

Hmmm... I modified the part you quoted because it was a bit too cavalier (it's been a while since I read up on this stuff, and have been doing so again because of this thread) but since you saw it before I edited it...

 

My point was that "the breath of life" was not the same type of thing as "the Spirit of God", but actually in a lot of contexts the two Hebrew words are interchangeable. In Ecclesiastes we find "The spirit [ruach] returns to God who gave it", which certainly doesn't fit with ruach being the fundamental personhood (in contradistinction to neshamah being an impersonal force) because it conflicts with the Hebrew conception of Sheol, the underworld, where everyone went upon death to rest (i.e. not Heaven or Hell, but somewhere in between).

 

The problem is that the Ancient Israelites were not at all clear about any of this stuff. Not that the Ancient Chinese were either...sophisticated theories of qi, shen, mind, etc. were not worked out until a while after the period when Ancient Israel flourished.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Creation, thanks for calling me on my over generalizations. I think so many weeks of 115+ degree Arizona weather has had an effect on my brain.

 

And thanks for teaching me a new word! I was not aware of neshama.

[Old Man Contradiction]

this book is on the parallel teachings of Lao Tzu and Jesus Christ:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Lao-Tzu-Parall...s/dp/1569752249

 

I haven't read it, but it might help you do the vulcan mind meld on your friends.

 

PS.

 

This book parallels Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, and Lao Tzu.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction