Christian views on Taoism & Cultivation.

[exorcist_1699]

Both singing /praying ( with or without making noise ) to God/Buddha/scripts in sutra /Bible constantly

enables us to settle our mind ,purify it and then condense it , plus some kind of ascetic life , at certain stage ,

we find ourselves having some sort of healing power against diseases or power to talk to ghost/ gods/Gold .

The only difference is that Taoist one is a jing-qi-shen way which requires our attaining physical , forever youth as the criterion to verify our practice , not letting it degenerate into some sort of evils . In fact , without the help of yang-qi, likely our spiritual achievement will deviate from the right way ;

[phore]

Hmmm... I modified the part you quoted because it was a bit too cavalier (it's been a while since I read up on this stuff, and have been doing so again because of this thread) but since you saw it before I edited it...

 

My point was that "the breath of life" was not the same type of thing as "the Spirit of God", but actually in a lot of contexts the two Hebrew words are interchangeable. In Ecclesiastes we find "The spirit [ruach] returns to God who gave it", which certainly doesn't fit with ruach being the fundamental personhood (in contradistinction to neshamah being an impersonal force) because it conflicts with the Hebrew conception of Sheol, the underworld, where everyone went upon death to rest (i.e. not Heaven or Hell, but somewhere in between).

 

The problem is that the Ancient Israelites were not at all clear about any of this stuff. Not that the Ancient Chinese were either...sophisticated theories of qi, shen, mind, etc. were not worked out until a while after the period when Ancient Israel flourished.

 

I generally hold holy spirit, divine energy, and shakti to be the same phenomenon. as you stated earlier.

 

To illustrate.

When i was much younger (before i was introduced to other religions than southern baptist christianity) i used to ride the school bus morning and night. I would sit in silence most of the time. I happened to discover that if i had the intent to connect to the holy spirit I would get a chilling sensation that shot up my spine. I spent many bus rides lost in this ecstatic state.

 

sheol seems similar to the European pagan concepts of the underworld. not necessarily evil or good.

does anyone have any useful sources for kaballah ?

 

[sunshine]

Meditation or not. If you don't follow their way you are lost anyway.... so why bother?

 

 

Harry

[lotusbud]

SO I think you will not find definit words about meditation in either direction, because the truth is not black and white. But you could try to

a.) get your friend to admit that meditation can help under the right circumstances.

b.) a good teacher should be able to distinguish the how the what and the when of the meditations to have desirable effects

 

once those pillars are in place you can build on them.

 

FOr example you can ask them to pray for you so that you develop Discernment. Discernment as the ability to distinguish good versus bad. So that you may use your meditation toward a common good.

I think this is fantastic advice.

 

I have to say that 7th Day Adventists and Jehovas Witnesses don't have reputations of thinking outside the box. You are likely encountering a lot of fear and weird assumptions.

 

I get a lot of worry from my parents about tai chi and medititation. They usually just have no understanding of what it is I am doing and what my goals are. My advice would be not to discuss the esoteric traditions of Christianity with them, that is for you to explore but will likely confirm their fears that you've fallen prey to some evil cult. So definitely don't start talking about the Cloud of Unknowing with them. Talk to them from a place of common ground.

 

What you can do is address their concerns. Usually their biggest fear is that you are replacing the gospel "you are a redeemed child of God" with something else "you must do whatever to be saved". Make clear to them, if it is what you believe, that enlightenment or unity with the Tao, however beneficial they may be, are something different than and not a replacement for Christ's work and message.

 

The other fear is of posession. What sort of practices are you doing? They don't involve trying to bring about posession do they? If they do you really need to rethink all this. :-{ I'm guessing not though. ;-)

Most meditation practices actually develop concentration, awareness, clarity etc. All virtuous things from the Christian perspective and things that should actually discourage possession from their point of view. Self examination is good, surely they agree. Cultivation can be thought of along the lines of hygene and exercize. Like brushing your teeth.

De-mystifying what you do can go a long way to helping them accept that this is not somehow abhorant behaviour.

[Chen]

This is a sensetive topic and I hope that my poor English will not create any missunderstanding.I don't want to offence nobody.

As an Orthodox Christian leaving in Europe I had also a lot of problems practicing meditation.

The official "thesis" of the Orthodox Church is that the main difference between praying and meditation is that the christians via the Holy spirit during the pray are asking for forgiveness from God. From the other hand people that meditating they are trying via themeselves to become Gods. So because only via the pray we can reach heaven ,( via the uderstanding that we are shinners),if we try to do it via meditation it is considered to be egoistic and this is a trick of the devil .

Now ,trying to pursuit someone that you are doing smthng that has nothing to do with evil powers,will be in vain.So you have to keep a low profile even to hide it.

As it concerns my self ,I never explain what I am doing, especially to my relatives .Also I am trying to avoid any conversation about meditation.Everybody knows that I am practising "karate" ,something accept it and they leave me in peace.

[Pietro]

...

The other fear is of posession. What sort of practices are you doing? They don't involve trying to bring about posession do they? If they do you really need to rethink all this. :-{ I'm guessing not though. ;-)

Most meditation practices actually develop concentration, awareness, clarity etc. All virtuous things from the Christian perspective and things that should actually discourage possession from their point of view. Self examination is good, surely they agree. Cultivation can be thought of along the lines of hygene and exercize. Like brushing your teeth.

De-mystifying what you do can go a long way to helping them accept that this is not somehow abhorant behaviour.

 

Funny enough if I remember well the Schipper's Taoist Body, there is an issue of possession even inside Taoism. There are Taoists that use disembodied entitied (read anything from Ghost to Demons to Angel), and other Taoists that are critic to those practices.

 

It is a bit like someone becomes a Christian, and people would be afrait he would become a satanist. Now matter of fact a christian is much nearer to become a satanist than a non christian. At least a Christian believes there is satan. IT's going in that direction. Every tradition is very wide and complex, and includes in it all sort of perversions.

 

Once you have Christians you also have satanists. Once you have Taoists you also have taoist-vampires. It's kind of part of the package.

 

A friend of mine just avoided all of this by simply not discussing all this with his family. If they asked what she was doing she would answer: kung fu. And since kung fu is good for the body and good for self defence they would not bother her. Now Tai Chi is good for the body, so this is another option.

[Moonbar]

well ...

 

Thankyou everyone very much for your input, There is such a wealth of knowledge out there within you all

 

Your posts have given me a ton of material to study-thankyou

 

I think for the moment ill take the advice of not trying to debate any points with my friends untill i can swat up a bit on this new material

 

I have to say though, they are by no means enemies or adversaries - they are good people.

 

Thankyou all so much once again for now ill try not to "mess with the box" & perhaps ill give my practice a different name.

 

[Marblehead]

... for now ill try not to "mess with the box" & perhaps ill give my practice a different name.

 

 

 

Hey! It's okay to color outside the box!

 

(Just make sure the teacher's not watching.)

 

Be well!

[nac]

From "The Box, Inside And Out"

 

It's not whether you think inside our outside the box that matters so much. Think what you like. Believe what you like.

 

Just lose the box!

 

[Marblehead]

 

Just lose the box!

 

 

That sounded so good I wanted to say it myself.

 

Just lose the box!

 

Be well!

[Pietro]

That sounded so good I wanted to say it myself.

 

Just lose the box!

 

Be well!

which box?

[Marblehead]

which box?

 

 

Belly laughs!!!

 

Be well!

[nac]

which box?

[Guest paul walter]

A request for help to all Taobums.

 

I have been involved almost all my life in martial arts & lately have begun to delve seriously into cultivation practices - I am enjoying it & feel i am making progress

 

I come from a Christian family & was raised happy & healthy

 

Throughout my life i have been constantly 'warned off' my martial arts training by Christian friends & my good ole Mum.

Now im no child (36yr old bloke) but these people do get to me - they speak to me from their 'High ground' & tell me i shouldnt be doing this or that, I tell them i am seaking to know God just as they are but this seems to stir them up into a frenzy of quotes & Bible verses saying that i am being fooled by evil forces.

 

I have 2 friends in Particular - 1, a 7th Day Adventist & the other a Jehovas Witness, they are great people & the SDA i have known since i was 5 so we are good mates

 

Now just once i would love to quiet their judgemental ramblings toward me & what better way to do it than with the Bible itself - surely they cannot dispute it if it is written

 

Does anyone else know of any passages or books within the Bible that do not condemn us cultivators to a fiery hell?

Or anyhting else that can help me with my 'discussions' with these 2 friends of mine?

 

Thankyou all in advance.

Cheers

 

 

 

I am living in the same situation with non-denominational sister and her two Christian children. There is no way to get through about the true 'meaning' of the biblical texts which are full of energy cultivation/practice/healings and energy based cosmological (religion) references. The reason being that the Christian sects/cults are closed to others by definition. Closed off from what they perceive as a threat (other religious bodies), they interpret the biblical texts their way to give validation to their reactionary evolution. Because the Jesus figure in the texts exhorts us to be like him they interpret that as how we can't ever be like him-it happens that way with hero worship, people end up claiming they know more about these beings they worship than the beings themselves do! It's called power/religion and it makes a perfect compliment to a lost soul. Thats how the ego works in order to feel safe in the world. You are attacking the very foundation of their cult (so think of the emotional investment you are up against!) if you speak to them as you would like to.

Essentially theology, like so much of academic enquiry, is about keeping things hidden so things can never be found and the search will go on forever as we all wait to die in this horrible life, hoping for better next time. I mean I can walk into the large local Christian bookstore and find thousands of books/dvd/mags/music all without a mention of energy healing, meditation techniques, the zodiacal origins of the Christ myth, the endless historical religious comparisons with 'pagan'(to Christians) practice/lore that Christians don't want to know about that are in the Book/Bible.

I understand what they are saying about energy cultivation, and in the ultimate sense they have a case e.g. that one should be content and not take the fire from the gods,to not have hubris,to not try to be better than god/tao, but since they know nothing of the science they are only parroting something based on misguided theological concepts like 'satan', 'spirit', 'God'.... The thing that is most irritating ,and perfectly tao, is that these smaller denominations claim to be closer to 'god' and gods life for us on earth yet are so insensitive to being like the Jesus guy and building paradise on earth and not killing and.... That's my experience anyway... Paul

[markern]

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6064

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6055

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6063

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6073

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5789

 

 

You should realy check out centering prayer and father thomas keathing. The pope has actualy aproved the practice of vipassana and similar practices as a way to know god and you could dig up the arguments given for this online. You might find something good written by Bernard Durell about this as he has not only been the abed of a Franciscan (I think) monastary but also a zen practioner and teacher for decades. Thomas mertons writings has a lot about this stuf. Of course check out St. John of the cross, theresa de avila and the cloud of unknowing. On this forum you will find people who know the budhist AND the christian contemplative tradition well:

 

http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/threa...s+of+Meditation

 

There should be some thorough arguments made online by people who have the same perspective as you for why this is right for a christian. Try googling christianity and meditation ok etc.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Moonbar.....

 

Might be worth checking out the book "The Second Coming Of Christ": http://www.yogananda-srf.org/scoc/scoc_frameset-des.html by Paramahansa Yogananda. It is his translation of the 4 Gospels. Supposedly he was in contact with Jesus Christ while writing this. I have read it and it is a LOT of material, but if you are truly interested in debating scripture with your friends this will be a GREAT resource for you.

 

Love,

Carson

[Pietro]

The pope has actualy aproved the practice of vipassana and similar practices as a way to know god and you could dig up the arguments given for this online.

 

Wow, really?

Which pope?

Can you give us a reference?

[Old Man Contradiction]

"The Imitation of Christ", written by a 15th century catholic christian monk for monks. It was one of Swami Vivekananda's two favorite books, the other being the Bhagavad Gita. It suggests the truth in this religion is having the mind of christ. There are links to online version from the wiki page.

[markern]

Wow, really?

Which pope?

Can you give us a reference?

 

Several popes I belive. This has been done in several rounds. In the 30s-40s there was one huge official "pope paper" (don`t know what they call them) written that aproved of quite a large experiementation with stuff from other contemplative traditions. This set off a trend of catholic monks experiementing with Zen etc. The current pope authored the second such "pope paper" but while the previous pope was still in charge so essentially the last pope aproved it but the current one definitively agrees. The did bar some practices but were clear that during something like Vipassana the holy spirit can be active within you and it can be a way to know God. If you google probably words like pope aproves.. vatican paper etc. etc. you should find this.

[Erdrickgr]

Here is a list of Papal Encyclicals, if that helps.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Erdrickgr

[bbsoft0]

If ever we find something wisely said by the pagans, we should not scorn it with the name of the author . . . but as the apostle says, "Test all things, holding fast what is good."

--Origen, Homily on Exodus (2nd century A.D.)

 

If people find themselves in this way in pure nothingness, is it not better for them to do something to drive away the darkness and the abandonment? Should such people not somehow pray, read, listen to a sermon, or carry out other works that are virtuous so as to help themselves? No! Understand this truly that remaining quite still and for as long at a time as possible is the best thing you can do.

--Meister Eckhart

 

If you keep a pure and a sincere heart you will find a way to continue your practice and the other people will gradually be silenced.

Just keep to the path of LOVE

[Li TaoRen]

I havn't read all the posts here so forgive me if I repeat anything. Most Taoist and Buddhist practices can work with Christianity. There is a book called the Jesus Sutras that may interest you. Born-Agains have harassed me as well. I question them as to what the hell did they think Jesus did? He was always going into solitude and practicing. When they put the bible together, they cut out dozens of books. The original definition of Heretic is "one who chooses how to think". Magitek has a good point in cutting the cord. Unless you agree that fossils and scrolls were planted by Satan and the earth is only 6000 years old. Practices are not ungodly. If everyone was meant to agree we would not have created thousands of religions and belief systems. If you look at the life of Jesus, he embodied the Taoist Sage. If you really investigate you will find that Christianity has very little to do with the teachings of Christ. The transfiguration story is great, it pertains to energy bodies and reincarnation. No matter what you find in the bible, it is my experience that fundementalists will always find a way to discredit it. Fundementalism in any religion is really collective psychosis, and displays many of the symptoms of schitziphrenia. ie.- I am part of a selected special group, some evil force is out to get us...etc. Plus if god is all powerful, how can any other being or any practice undermine that. If you do want to cut the cord, you should read some Richard Dawkins. Religion, in my opinion is bad news. If you go to some monasteries(of any faith) and find highly realized individuals you find they are always rule-breakers. It seems like most people who preach fundementally, have memorized books but done nothing. God is all loving, yet hates gays? God is all forgiving but will condemn us to hell? No logic whatsoever. Be free, the truth is within you, if you are a good person, no harm will come.

A request for help to all Taobums.

 

I have been involved almost all my life in martial arts & lately have begun to delve seriously into cultivation practices - I am enjoying it & feel i am making progress

 

I come from a Christian family & was raised happy & healthy

 

Throughout my life i have been constantly 'warned off' my martial arts training by Christian friends & my good ole Mum.

Now im no child (36yr old bloke) but these people do get to me - they speak to me from their 'High ground' & tell me i shouldnt be doing this or that, I tell them i am seaking to know God just as they are but this seems to stir them up into a frenzy of quotes & Bible verses saying that i am being fooled by evil forces.

 

I have 2 friends in Particular - 1, a 7th Day Adventist & the other a Jehovas Witness, they are great people & the SDA i have known since i was 5 so we are good mates

 

Now just once i would love to quiet their judgemental ramblings toward me & what better way to do it than with the Bible itself - surely they cannot dispute it if it is written

 

Does anyone else know of any passages or books within the Bible that do not condemn us cultivators to a fiery hell?

Or anyhting else that can help me with my 'discussions' with these 2 friends of mine?

 

Thankyou all in advance.

Cheers