stop seeking bliss; it's wrong

[findley]

As one allows oneself to enter and dwell in the Mysterious Pass-- One must forget the desire for bliss. If you are practicing FOR bliss, then you have blinded yourself and fallen onto a disingenuine path.

 

The mysterious pass-- it is 'without flavor'.

 

Never try to intentionally cultivate bliss.

[ToL]

What sould one seek then?

[Marblehead]

Yeah, Findley. What should one seek then?

 

(Yes, I am being a pest.)

 

Be well!

[Magitek]

If only I knew most the spiritual people were bliss bunnies I could have saved myself a lot of time.

 

Just got my hands on The Secret of the Golden Flower, its very direct.

[Sunya]

If only I knew most the spiritual people were bliss bunnies I could have saved myself a lot of time.

 

Just got my hands on The Secret of the Golden Flower, its very direct.

 

Cleary version right?

[Magitek]

Nope, reading Wilhelm. JJ Semple only needed the Wilhelm. He talks about how he experienced the primal spirit taking its rightful control in the spot between the eyes. Interestingly, U G Krishnamurti also said his whole body was controlled from this point.

 

I'll probably go onto Clearys version next.

[Vajrahridaya]

One can start channeling high spirits in that state. Of course for Buddhism, the explanation is something other than a primal spirit taking rightful ownership. It's just connecting to some high spirit in one of the higher of the 31 planes of existence.

 

Findley. What you say is right in one way. But, we do our practice in order to have greater calm and happiness, so we do utilize bliss, because from that bliss is also compassion and unconditional love, relaxation, healing... etc.

 

To identify with it is of course erroneous. But, that bliss goes hand in hand with realizing the true nature of things. If it weren't blissful, it wouldn't be worth the practice. You know?

 

At the same time, being a bliss bunny is better than being an angry bear or angry wolf type, ya know?

[Guest winpro07]

bliss light is one stage below production of void. An over abundance of bliss is very useful

Any light not put to use in cultivation/accumulation can be used in materialization and for healing

body or others.

[Mal]

[Sloppy Zhang]

From what I've read on this forum from level headed people in the more bliss oriented practices *cough*kunlun*cough*, they have a good head on their shoulders about bliss and the role it takes (or doesn't take?) in cultivation.

 

Now sure, there are going to be bliss junkies who get blissful and stop there. They may not have the "whole picture", but then again, there are people from all kinds of systems that don't have the "whole picture." Some people sit in lotus under trees in their front lawn for hours at a time, fast a lot, and deny themselves all kinds of pleasures, and they're like, "yeah, I'm so advanced!" even though they may be missing the mark.....

 

In my mind, that's not different from the bliss junkie who's taken one aspect of the practice a bit too far

 

But advanced students in all kinds of traditions, from my perspective, seem to know what they're doing, and can help others along the way, if you listen (or, in TTB's case, search through and read hundreds of posts over the course of several years )

[phore]

the mystery comes in every flavor, and and sometimes all of them at once. to say that mysterious pass is nothing is to say that it is all things. void is the unlimited potential. the taichi is part of the wuchi, and the wuchi is part of the taichi. they are inseparable.

union is blissful.

ecstasy creates the universe.

 

Edited August 11, 2009 by phore

[Vajrahridaya]

Bliss is the secret reason behind movement. Why else move except for the sake of joy, for the sake of finding joy or decreasing pain. The difference between an enlightened being and a un-enlightened being is that an enlightened being dances or moves out of joy, and for the joy of others, teaches for the sake of others. While the un-enlightened dance and move so that they can experience joy.

[minkus]

Hey Findley, you say we should never intentionally seek bliss wich i understand. To avoid not linking the bliss to nonduality or empty nature. But even without the intention when one lives and eats balanced and genuinly tries to be good towards others, spontanious bliss arises. It looks to me we are blissfull beings allready.

 

If a blissfull practice like tummo can help to blast people out of there confusion then this is a nice thing not ?

 

You have positive or negative experience with subtle blissfull energy acting on the mysterious pass ?

 

Cheers, Mike

[nac]

As one allows oneself to enter and dwell in the Mysterious Pass-- One must forget the desire for bliss. If you are practicing FOR bliss, then you have blinded yourself and fallen onto a disingenuine path.

 

The mysterious pass-- it is 'without flavor'.

 

Never try to intentionally cultivate bliss.

[findley]

Oh, well, I was reading through the Tao Te Ching again, and was particularly influenced by a line, that the tao is 'without flavor', or something or another. It was particularly appealling to me, in that it seemed to help trigger a 'turning around' of 'the light'.

Also, the TTC doesn't really seem to discuss the concept of Bliss at all-- it seems a book dedicated much more to the practice of wisdom-- and in my opinion, a genuine sort of 'enlightenment'.

 

Why I wrote this, is whenever I try and cultivate bliss directly, I make things worse. Whenever I intentionally try to induce bliss, in whatever aspect, I feel as though I take a step backwards. So I thought I would share and see what you guys have to say about it.

 

In regards to how bliss may affect one's capacity to dwell in the mysterious pass-- it is far too easy to cling to it ! and then, if you are genuinely seeking enlightenment, I imagine that it is a bad thing. That it may stunt your 'growth'.

 

anyways, this is just what I am thinking. Maybe, though, bliss is actually a reasonable alternative to enlightenment? Maybe enlightenment isn't really a big deal.

[Magitek]

Well for practical purposes I cannot see how bliss can be maintained.

 

U G Krishnamurti says that everywhere he goes people all want the same thing : permanent pleasure without a moment of pain. He describes God as the ultimate sensual pleasure. The mystical states as sensual. The sprititual goals (.e.g. hierarchy theosophy bullshit) as materialistic.

 

He also says how the body is not interested in bliss and it actually hurts the body. So out goes tantric sex.

 

His body acts exactly like is said in the Secret of The Golden Flower, the primal spirit taking charge, within the skull and between the eyes. The way JJ Semples body acts sounds similar but U. G.s is the most extreme awakening, he basically doesn't exist..... He often tells people the cabbage is more alive then they are. Hard to swallow, but I find it hard to believe in a light body that progresses up the dimensions through the astral .etc anymore.

 

In spite of that he says enlightenment does not exist, probably due to the exploitation in india (and elsewhere).

[joeblast]

You can roughly correlate with cultivation for the purposes of siddhis - if that's your highest aim....well then, you're shooting a little low!

[Magitek]

Don't get me wrong U. G. hasn't been a teacher or master or anything. Hes just my case study. So is Semple.

 

Anyone can say they are enlightened.

[Marblehead]

Well, all I can say is that I am happy to see that there are folks here who are finding bliss and ecstacy.

 

Be well!

[Tao99]

The natural emotion of the Heart is calmness and tranquility.

Do not disturb it and Harmony will naturally develop.

 

~ Neiye (found on Stig's site www.taowizard.com)

 

So perhaps in some ways tranquility is the natural base state and out of it the Harmony = harmonious Chi = bliss/euphoria naturally develops, and is then acted on.

 

So perhaps both developed (in that order for some).

Edited August 11, 2009 by Tao99

[Marblehead]

Ah! Harmony! One of my most favorite words and concepts.

 

Be well!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Well for practical purposes I cannot see how bliss can be maintained.

 

U G Krishnamurti says that everywhere he goes people all want the same thing : permanent pleasure without a moment of pain. He describes God as the ultimate sensual pleasure. The mystical states as sensual. The sprititual goals (.e.g. hierarchy theosophy bullshit) as materialistic.

 

He also says how the body is not interested in bliss and it actually hurts the body. So out goes tantric sex.

 

His body acts exactly like is said in the Secret of The Golden Flower, the primal spirit taking charge, within the skull and between the eyes. The way JJ Semples body acts sounds similar but U. G.s is the most extreme awakening, he basically doesn't exist..... He often tells people the cabbage is more alive then they are. Hard to swallow, but I find it hard to believe in a light body that progresses up the dimensions through the astral .etc anymore.

 

In spite of that he says enlightenment does not exist, probably due to the exploitation in india (and elsewhere).

 

The process U.G. went through was spontaneous and he had no idea how or why it occurred. There are many people who go through such awakenings and attribute it to an outer source. This leads to worship, irresponsibility, and reckless sense of superiority. The primal spirit was non other than an aspect of himself, but he didn't interpret it that way because of his past experiences with spirituality were shrouded in doubt, inferiority, and pride.

 

He is not exactly a man to look up to or even learn from.

 

As for bliss, it is one of many factors that guides the seeker. No need to seek it or not seek it. Just pay attention to it.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Magitek]

Well, all I can say is that I am happy to see that there are folks here who are finding bliss and ecstacy.

 

Be well!

 

 

Yes but what if they crash afterwards? Why ignore the practicalities? can it be maintained? Theres a blog BewareOfGod which talks about a guy who got involved with the sociopath Da Free John. The guy would practice in the group, would get shakti fever and had to go to the hospital and be operated upon! I have heard of people getting health problems from Kunlun too.

 

Most people are just talking about sweet dreams. But soon you have to wake up. If all you want is bliss then just eat hash. I can't think of a better way. Its quicker and you'll probably strain yourself less.

 

I think one of the Zen Patriarchs said the Siddhārtha Gautama (sakyamuni buddha) died lying on his side at a pretty standard age, obviously he was implying something.

 

Theres a clip of Paramahansa Yogananda saying do my yoga and you'll live past 100 and then he croaks at 59.

 

They called Bodhidarma the barbarian. Not the polite bliss-man.

 

I know many neurotic people who say they are happy .etc, but their faces tell a different story. I say if you have to tell youself you are happy .etc you are really in a horrible state.

 

Maybe their are authientic ways, which is why I'm moving onto the golden flower. Some pranayama however just constricts the breath and strains the body, altering the bodies chemistry and making one light headed.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Yes but what if they crash afterwards? Why ignore the practicalities? can it be maintained? Theres a blog BewareOfGod which talks about a guy who got involved with the sociopath Da Free John. The guy would practice in the group, would get shakti fever and had to go to the hospital and be operated upon! I have heard of people getting health problems from Kunlun too.

 

Most people are just talking about sweet dreams. But soon you have to wake up. If all you want is bliss then just eat hash. I can't think of a better way. Its quicker and you'll probably strain yourself less.

 

I think one of the Zen Patriarchs said the Siddhārtha Gautama (sakyamuni buddha) died lying on his side at a pretty standard age, obviously he was implying something.

 

Theres a clip of Paramahansa Yogananda saying do my yoga and you'll live past 100 and then he croaks at 59.

 

They called Bodhidarma the barbarian. Not the polite bliss-man.

 

I know many neurotic people who say they are happy .etc, but their faces tell a different story. I say if you have to tell youself you are happy .etc you are really in a horrible state.

 

Maybe their are authientic ways, which is why I'm moving onto the golden flower. Some pranayama however just constricts the breath and strains the body, altering the bodies chemistry and making one light headed.

 

It's not a drug high. The bliss becomes you and you no longer even see it as bliss.

 

A dualistic approach to anything such as bliss is not true bliss and impermanent.

 

I'm not sure what death has anything to do with this. Bodhidharma was a barbarian to the Chinese because he was foreign. They call all foreigner barbarians .

[minkus]

Ow ok thanx Findley. Do you see the mysterious pass as a state to dwell in or ? I mean a meditational state or state of mind/being one can reach when doing a practice or having sufficient insight in Tao ?