Should a Taoist Forum focus primarily on Taoism?

[Marblehead]

 

I would suggest prudence,

 

Hehehe.

 

Yes, prudence is a key factor in Taoism. There is a time to act and a time to remain still; a time to speak and a time to keep one's mouth shut. Of course, that's what wu wei is all about. It's not about doing nothing - it is about doing the right thing (if doing something will make a difference) at the right time. Timing matters!!!

 

Be well!

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, and even in the works of Gandhi's inspiration, Henry David Thoreau. Walden reads like early American Taoism (in spirit), but I don't recall how closely he was influenced by the Transcendentalist movement of the time.

 

He was supposedly influenced by the Bhagavad Gita if I'm not mistaken?

 

Only ego's think that they can rid others of their misunderstandings. Only ego's think that THEY have the answers others need. Only ego's post in every topic saying that they know and can expound on "The Way" for others.

Love,

Carson

 

Ah... but I don't think I can rid the people who are making the misunderstandings of their understandings. Just the people who are reading on the sidelines are reading and learning. So really, I'm not talking to the people who I seem to be talking to.

 

Besides, if you look for a second objectively... I hardly post in any topics other than the ones where Buddhism comes up. That's it.

 

 

Well xabir2005,

 

If the is no 'you' what are these words this 'you that doesn't exist doing in the post above?

 

And if there is no separation why is it that there are people who are disagreeing with what this 'you that doesn't exist'?

 

Yes, the universe will continue to exist after you and I have died. That's pretty much a given. And any people still around will have to deal with their own problems. Some find answers - some don't.

 

Be well!

 

Your quite the black and white thinker aren't you. Been looking at yin/yang symbols for too long.

 

 

 

I am the doer at the present moment who is pressing the keys on this keyboard in a process that creates words on my computer monitor as well as in the CPU of the computer (via electrical impulses) that will be sent to the destination so indicated. This is real stuff. Really!

 

Be well!

 

It all originates dependently.. upon an endless chain of causes and conditions. This moment is predicated upon an endless array of interdependent causes and conditions add infinitum.

 

Just think about that... on a molecular level, on a familial history level, your parents being based on parents, etc. Your computer being based on materials and workers, who are also based on parents, components that are based on more components. The seemingness of your typing is based not on itself, but on an endless chain of causes and conditions that have absolutely no point of origin, just endless regress.

 

If you can think about that really... you'll be coming close to what Xabir meant in his poem that he quoted.

 

If you can see that what you are calling real is an activity based upon so many causes and conditions in so many directions that have no beginning and that each component is itself without individual existence other than caused by other infinite chains of conditioning, you'll begin to understand what dependent origination means.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

... if I'm not mistaken?

 

But you probably are. (Sorry. I just couldn't resist that.)

 

Ah... but I don't think I can rid the people who are making the misunderstandings of their understandings. Just the people who are reading on the sidelines are reading and learning. So really, I'm not talking to the people who I seem to be talking to.

 

Who wooda' noed?

 

Why else do you think I am always right on your butt? I am offering the readers and learners a second opinion so they can better make up their own mind.

 

Be well!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

Besides, if you look for a second objectively... I hardly post in any topics other than the ones where Buddhism comes up. That's it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but not exactly true. Oh, come on, let it be pointed out that you are the one who introduces Buddhism into many threads...Buddhism "comes up" because you bring it up...for example the recent thread on 'Who is the Lord in The Tao Te Ching?' among others...which is part of the reason that there is now discussion/polls about the buddhists taking over ... maybe you can acknowledge something instead of ignoring or defending?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited August 19, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Marblehead]

Your quite the black and white thinker aren't you. Been looking at yin/yang symbols for too long.

 

Actually there are only shades of gray.

 

It all originates dependently.. upon an endless chain of causes and conditions. This moment is predicated upon an endless array of interdependent causes and conditions add infinitum.

 

Why do you keep implying that I do not hold to the concept of cause and effect? I do, you know. But for you to suggest that something doesn't exist simply because something cause it is very tunnel-visioned. (There! Now we are even again. Hehehe)

 

Just think about that... on a molecular level, on a familial history level, your parents being based on parents, etc. Your computer being based on materials and workers, who are also based on parents, components that are based on more components. The seemingness of your typing is based not on itself, but on an endless chain of causes and conditions that have absolutely no point of origin, just endless regress.

 

Again, cause and effect. Plain and simply. We don't need to use 87,347 words to say "cause and effect".

 

If you can think about that really... you'll be coming close to what Xabir meant in his poem that he quoted.

 

Okay. So I thought about it. Xabir still exists. And so do you. And so do I.

 

So tell me sir, what is the sound of one hand clapping?

 

Oh, darn, I forgot. That would be 'an endless array of interdependent causes and conditions'.

 

But then there probably isn't a hand and there probably isn't any clapping. Oh well.

 

Be well!

 

 

Sorry, but not exactly true. Let it be pointed out that you are the one who introduces Buddhism into many threads...Buddhism "comes up" because you bring it up...for example the recent thread on 'Who is the Lord in The Tao Te Ching?'...which is part of the reason that there is now discussion/polls about the buddhists taking over ... maybe you can acknowledge something instead of ignoring or defending?

 

Heheh. He would never be able to acknowledge that because for him nothing exists because everything is independantly originated which of course, makes no logical sense but then there is no law that states that everything we say must be logical.

 

Be well!

[Vajrahridaya]

Sorry, but not exactly true. Oh, come on, let it be pointed out that you are the one who introduces Buddhism into many threads...Buddhism "comes up" because you bring it up...for example the recent thread on 'Who is the Lord in The Tao Te Ching?' among others...which is part of the reason that there is now discussion/polls about the buddhists taking over ... maybe you can acknowledge something instead of ignoring or defending?

.

 

I said mostly. Also, there are direct causes for me bringing it up.

 

 

 

Actually there are only shades of gray.

 

true

 

Why do you keep implying that I do not hold to the concept of cause and effect? I do, you know. But for you to suggest that something doesn't exist simply because something cause it is very tunnel-visioned. (There! Now we are even again. Hehehe)

 

I think it's you who has tunnel vision because we keep saying that yes, we do exist relative to infinite causes and conditions, but we don't ultimately exist. As in we don't exist due to our own essence, we are not permanent, also we are ever changing thus our self is not a permanent fixture either. It's all convention. Stop seeing black and white and you will have an understanding. You say you see shades of grey but all your interpretations of the Buddha speak is so absolutist as if that is how we are seeing things. Of course you exist, relatively. We've said that many, many times.

 

Again, cause and effect. Plain and simply. We don't need to use 87,347 words to say "cause and effect".

Okay. So I thought about it. Xabir still exists. And so do you. And so do I.

 

Yes, we exist relatively, not absolutely.

 

Heheh. He would never be able to acknowledge that because for him nothing exists because everything is independantly originated which of course, makes no logical sense but then there is no law that states that everything we say must be logical.

 

independently originated? No... that doesn't make any sense.

 

Your not that dense... are you?

 

dependently originated, inter-dependently originated, co-dependently originated, co-dependent-arising, mutual-co-arising.

 

Thus, we exist relative to an infinite chain of causation.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I said mostly. Also, there are direct causes for me bringing it up.

 

 

 

Yes, of course. When one wears 'Buddhist glasses" then everything looks like... um, I'm not sure exactly. Is it not ironic that when you were a member of a Buddhist forum you were a "dogmatic" Hindu (as per Mikaelz, not my words), and now that you are a member of a generally Taoist forum, you are a dogmatic Buddhist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Marblehead]

I said mostly. Also, there are direct causes for me bringing it up.

 

Just wondering. Have you noticed that I have not made a single post in any of the threads that were created for the purpose of discussing Buddhism?

 

Nor do I post in the threads that have anything to do with Taoist alchemy or religion.

 

So I will ask this question, "What value does Buddhism have regarding a question like "Who is the Lord/God in the Tao Te Ching?""

 

Be well!

[Sunya]

Hi mikaelz,

 

a doer isn't necessary to post.

 

You just cancelled any reason for me to read any further of your post. If noone is posting then the post does not exist so there is no reason for me to read it because it doesn't exist.

 

Sad that you folks won't admit the you exist so that I might communicate with you.

 

Be well!

 

 

LOL

 

you picked a very apt name for yourself Marblehead

 

how do you go from "if no one is posting" to "the post does not exist" ?

no one is posting because no concrete self can be found, that doesn't mean that thoughts aren't arising, fingers aren't typing words, and ideas aren't being expressed.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, of course. When one wears 'Buddhist glasses" then everything looks like... um, I'm not sure exactly. Is it not ironic that when you were a member of a Buddhist forum you were a "dogmatic" Hindu (as per Mikaelz, not my words), and now that you are a member of a generally Taoist forum, you are a dogmatic Buddhist?

.

 

I'm actually not dogmatic.

 

Rather, I just see that Buddhism teaches an ultimate wisdom that no other path seems to teach. I had my wrestling match with Taoism, as it seemed to also teach the same here and there. But, I realized that this was wrong and yes, Buddhism is the only path that teaches this particular ultimate wisdom.

 

All other paths have plenty of endless conventional wisdoms related to life that parallel Buddhist wisdom, so there is no dogma.

 

Just that Buddhism is the only one that teaches no essence, no ultimate identity that is shared by all beings that stands on it's own light. No ultimate universal substratum.

 

Buddhism is the only path that teaches dependent origination to such a degree of scrutiny as to completely eradicate the ultimate conclusions of other religions and paths.

 

My Dogmatic Hinduism was that all paths lead to the same destination, that we are all touching one elephant from many sides, that we are all bubbles in one ocean that all religions point to the same moon. What all you guys seem to be thinking.

 

Buddhism is the only path that does not believe that, so is at odds with all the New Age, all religions are teaching the same thing through different words idealization.

 

So, I was on the Buddhist site telling them that they were dogmatic and I was open minded because I believed that we all came from one supreme source and that we all return to it at the end of the universe, when everything goes crunch. I believed that the big bang was the single primal cause and the big crunch was the coming back into that single, primal cause. This was my dogma.

 

Now, I don't have a dogma, I just see that all religions lead to higher rebirth and greater capacity so that one day they can realize what Buddhism teaches, even if on another planet, under another name.

 

Buddhism merely means, "awake-ism"...

 

That's it.

[Marblehead]

Okay. I am going to make this reply easy on myself.

 

Yes, we exist ...

 

I agree

 

Thus, we exist ...

 

I agree.

 

Be well!

[Vajrahridaya]

Just wondering. Have you noticed that I have not made a single post in any of the threads that were created for the purpose of discussing Buddhism?

 

Nor do I post in the threads that have anything to do with Taoist alchemy or religion.

 

So I will ask this question, "What value does Buddhism have regarding a question like "Who is the Lord/God in the Tao Te Ching?""

 

Be well!

 

People just starting going off and arguing...

 

If you read my post, I actually didn't mention it at first at all.

 

Then someone mentioned that the absolute truth was a great blackness that permeated everything. I was compelled to say something about that and mentioned Buddhist thought say's something like this... then an avalanche started...

 

So anyway... whatever... you guys are getting way to offended...

[Marblehead]

LOL

 

you picked a very apt name for yourself Marblehead

 

how do you go from "if no one is posting" to "the post does not exist" ?

no one is posting because no concrete self can be found, that doesn't mean that thoughts aren't arising, fingers aren't typing words, and ideas aren't being expressed.

 

And so when we fail with our arguements we rely on personal attacks. Sad.

 

And where are these thoughts coming from?

 

And what are these fingers attached to?

 

And from where are these ideas originating from?

 

Be well!

 

 

People just starting going off and arguing...

 

If you read my post, I actually didn't mention it at first at all.

 

Then someone mentioned that the absolute truth was a great blackness that permeated everything. I was compelled to say something about that and mentioned Buddhist thought say's something like this... then an avalanche started...

 

So anyway... whatever... you guys are getting way to offended...

 

Yes. And I don't like to see people who are trying to learn something about Taoism being offended and leaving the forum. I want them to stay here and be able to ask questions about Taoism and get answers from Taoists. If they wanted answers about Taoist from Buddhists I am sure they would join a Buddhist forum.

 

Now please understand, I am not trying to pass blame on any of the Buddhists here. All I am saying is that if we post to a thread our post should have something to do with the subject of the thread and not some other subject that is going to implant false information into the minds of the readers.

 

Be well!

[Sunya]

And so when we fail with our arguements we rely on personal attacks. Sad.

 

 

it's not a personal attack because theres no self, remember? all i'm pointing out is the stubborn pattern of energy that keeps repeating itself in your posts. people have explained to you 10 times over that nobody is positing non-existence.

 

And where are these thoughts coming from?

 

from nowhere.

 

And what are these fingers attached to?

 

the desire to point somewhere

 

 

 

And from where are these ideas originating from?

 

previous causes and conditions

 

Be well!

Yes. And I don't like to see people who are trying to learn something about Taoism being offended and leaving the forum. I want them to stay here and be able to ask questions about Taoism and get answers from Taoists. If they wanted answers about Taoist from Buddhists I am sure they would join a Buddhist forum.

 

i've been on this forum for 2 years and its never been exclusively Taoists

[Marblehead]

it's not a personal attack because theres no self, remember? all i'm pointing out is the stubborn pattern of energy that keeps repeating itself in your posts. people have explained to you 10 times over that nobody is positing non-existence.

from nowhere.

the desire to point somewhere

previous causes and conditions

i've been on this forum for 2 years and its never been exclusively Taoists

 

That is all bullshit and you know it.

 

So if there is no self why did you even make the comment in the first place? Isn't that like pissing in the wind?

 

It is you that keeps saying you don't exist. I exist. It is you who keeps repeating that noone exists but yet there are many people here who think that you exist and that you are quite insane.

 

So the thoughts came from nowhere and the words representing the thoughts just appeared, as if by magic, and the ideas were formed in a mind that doesn't exist because of some mystic cause and condition.

 

That sounds totally logical. Yeah, right. But you still believe in the tooth fairy, right?

 

I have never, ever said that this forum should be exclusively Taoists membership. (Shit. I don't have anything to say about that anyhow.)

 

All I have suggested is that when we are talking about a Taoist subject that is exactly what we should be talking about. When we are talking about a Buddhist subject that is exactly what we should be talking about.

 

I just wonder if you are aware of the fact that you have an ego problem.

 

And on the subject of stubbornness. I wouldn't have to repeat myself so much if you would actually consider what I have said instead of imagining that I have said something that you disagree with.

 

I think that there is nothing wrong with being a member of a Taoist forum and holding to Taoist concepts.

 

Be well!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

i've been on this forum for 2 years and its never been exclusively Taoists

 

That's not the point he is trying to make. Any threads the hard core Buddhists invade suddenly become an exposition of esoteric Buddhist philosophy, often to the exclusion of other points of view. Vajra is very very smart (but not yet wise, at least as he shows on the internet forums) and knows a lot about Buddhism and Hinduism, but he apparently doesn't know what he doesn't know and therein lies much of his dogmatism. (I'm not sure where you are, Mikaelz, because you reveal less in your posts, but you seem to come off as a kind of Robin to Vajra''s Batman---not bad).

 

But!...neither of you is Superman (that might be Sean, apparently a Nietzchean among other things). Wisdom in spirituality (which I do not lay claim to), lies not in swallowing doctrine whole, but in absorbing something deeply and then making it one's own...seeing the interrelationships and spaces between things. Not in dissing whole schools of thought as somehow inferior as ultimate spiritual paths.

 

What, in your minds, is the reason so many here resist your positions? Is it because we're closed-minded fools, or is it because the messengers, while being very very smart and having lots of spiritual life experiences, are going about the delivery of the message in the wrong way?

 

Vaj and Miklz often retort,

 

"you don't know anything about...x " or

 

"you don't know what your [sic] talking about"

 

...well, that's pretty offensive. How do you guys make those assumptions? You wonder why others oppose you when you show so little skill? You act so superior and cock-sure confident in your knowledge, that you steam-roller others. Gee, how am I supposed to feel about my spiritual path now that you've 'proven' to me it's inferiority? I tried pointing some of these things out to you, then gently chiding you, then yes, resorted to some sarcasm, but you seem to be so dense on this forum. On this forum, maybe or maybe not in your regular life, if you have much of one away from your computers. You just tell me, and others how "sad" we are for using humor and sarcasm to challenge you...but you guys seem almost militantly dense!

 

You insult whole schools of thought, teachers, spiritual ways as being "lesser", saying that this is the way things are, rather than, 'the buddha taught y, and that's how I see it'. Again, offensive. You offend other's spiritual paths in your zeal to make your points. I brought up the sketchy pasts of several of V's yoga gurus to see how he would react. His defense: "well, if you believe a bunch (actually a whole bunch) of internet gossip!" --even though many of these charges of impropriety, sexual and otherwise, existed long before the internet, such as in New Yorker magazine exposes. Sounds like a brainwashed ex-member of the converted...an answer that would have impressed me would have been more like this:

 

"I don't know if those things are true, I don't think they are, but even if they were, the teachings of Siddha Yoga are still a valid and true spiritual way"... hmm, I'd buy that... it's not.............dogmatic.

 

Hey, I'm very open to learning more about Buddhism... but you guys are poster children of blind believerism, bringing out the resistence in others...

 

Lots of words and abstruse concepts, but little appealing clarity. You've set up grudge matches, which are getting dull. There's a number of us here who are discontent with your attitudes, why not look at yourselves to see what you're not doing right? C'mon...if you're so smart, win us over! But be open and respectful to other ways... just because you kinda tried on Taoism and it didn't fit, doesn't mean your current way is THE way... that's the way fundamentalists think...

 

Vajra often scolds others: "clean your mirror"...hello?

 

 

 

 

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Edited August 19, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Vajra often scolds others: "clean your mirror"...hello?

.

.

 

Yes, because you do... I can clearly see the dirt.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Yes, because you do... I can clearly see the dirt.

 

 

Dude, you're goofy! you've just proved my point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited August 19, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Sunya]

relax peoples, you take all this too personally! its just a discussion board.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Vajra, could you respond to some of the points I made in the above post?

Can you hear anyone else?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited August 19, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[宁]

If there is no I there is no Karma?

 

 

The Karma is not made up by an I. According to taoist philosophy, it takes alot of effort to build up an I. Most of what people have is just a funny mixture of psychological tensions - that's the modern definition of how personality is created = psychological tensions that create specific patterns of action and re-action.

 

You come to this forum with the preconceived idea that if the majority of the threads are infantile postings, the IQ of the taobums must be really down the drain...

Man... there are many that I know of, who would put you and your buddhist philosophy right where you belong, it's just they don't bother posting that much.

You're not here to enlighten anyone.

 

No I, no Karma... jeez

[Sunya]

in Buddhist philosophy the I is a karmic habit, a thought, a mental pattern that is repeated. nothing more.

 

 

You come to this forum with the preconceived idea that if the majority of the threads are infantile postings, the IQ of the taobums must be really down the drain...

Man... there are many that I know of, who would put you and your buddhist philosophy right where you belong, it's just they don't bother posting that much.

You're not here to enlighten anyone.

 

this is what I mean by people getting too defensive, taking everything too seriously, because of attachments to a specific tradition.

 

all Vajra is doing is pointing out your own insecurities and attachments with how you react. he's only posting words and ideas, you're the one thats reacting so. creating a whole thread about kicking the mad Buddhists out. this is just a discussion board, we are all just people who are talking and trying to figure out a thing or two. I think we are forgetting that when our identity is threatened and we instantly run for cover and label ourselves Taoist or Buddhist. seeing the other side as an enemy who is invading our territory, or something to that effect.

[Pietro]

A brief view on our favourite Buddhist subconscious thinking process

 

I'm actually not dogmatic.

 

I'm actually not dogmatic.

I'm actually non dogmatic.

I'm actually non dogmatic.

I'm actually non, dogmatic.

I'm actually non, dogma is.

I'm actually non; dogma is!

I'm actually non.

Dogma is!!

Edited August 19, 2009 by Pietro

[Sunya]

ok and the point of such attacks is?