Should a Taoist Forum focus primarily on Taoism?

[宁]

By the same extent, if i come and kick you butt, and you react, it's because you care too much about your butt...

And you should thank me for the wise lesson

 

I suspect buddhist philosophy is much more than it transpired to us until now.

It may very well be the same case as with daoism: until now we know a little more than nothing.

 

You're the type that seems to like ideas. Why don't you think about this idea for a while:

 

Karma kicks in when there is no I to choose the path in life.

Karma is like an auto-pilot.

The 'I' that people usually have is no more than a mixture of undischarged psychollogical tensions, that make them act and react in specific ways.

The I of the practicioners comes about only when they are able to re-integrate, re-unite all the parts of their being, starting with:

- the reunion between mind, heart and sex

- the reunion between body, soul and spirit

- the reunion of man, earth and heaven

When there is no union, no coherent action, there is no 'I'.

 

What do you think?

[Pietro]

ok and the point of such attacks is?

 

to have fun.

 

Beside I thought it was artistic

 

Mikaelz, it's not an attack, it's a teasing.

 

It's a way to dissolve some of the tension.

 

You know, it would really be helpful if you two got a grip and kept some form of self discipline (which we all do in any society), by keeping on the general topic. or at least not bringing the same topic everywhere you go.

 

the Tao Bum never had a policy of ownership of a thread, but we all recognised that diversity is nice, and to have all the plates taste the same it's rather dull. So you have been discussing the nature of reality, the nature of enlightenment and the experience of losing the self in countless threads. When one thread gets ignored you move to another. You don't speak with each other because you don't have any interest to speak with fellow minded. So when we don't respond the thread just die, and you need to pick a new one.

 

We cannot make a separate section on tTB (apart that Sean would not do it), because the section would be empty. You would not write there, because no one would read you. Which is the same reason why you are not starting your own forum. geez, you manage to even be criticized by new members that arrive and say that the situation is hopeless on post 2. On post 2! And post 1 is the required introduction. Never in my most obnoxious moment did I manage this.

 

This thread is here trying to decide how to handle the situation. You first entered very respectfully. No one answered you, did you felt ignored? You were. You were being consciously ignored because we had other things we wanted to discuss. So you are picking up topics and excuses to hack this thread as yet another one of your threads.

 

Either you do not realise that it is annoying, or you do not care that it's annoying, or you enjoy to annoy other people. We told you that it was annoying so I exclude the first option. Both the others undermine any possible claim of virtue from your side, and thus make your posts an intellectual game. Which is why everybody is now thinking your attainment are empty and irrelevant.

 

Mikaelz, get a grip kid. You asked me if you were the cause of the stress? No at the beginning you were not cause of great stress, although you did not help. Now you are weighting on.

 

And your little buddy Buddhist vampire who enjoys and sucks upon other's attention is really being infantil to the extreme. He is not going through an adolescential phase. He never came out of it.

 

Now the one before was a teasing, this is an attack.

 

Can you spot the difference?

 

Pietro

 

LATE EDIT: even in a net attack is important to keep to boudaries, and not claiming things we don't know, or end up name calling. SO I corrected the post: Took out "Vampire" (name calling). Took out "He is not going through an adolescential phase. He never came out of it." . (Not my business, don't know if it temporary state or not)

Edited August 19, 2009 by Pietro

[Mal]

Beside I thought it was artistic

 

It was beautiful, like a Star Wars scroll

(I'm too lazy to change fonts and colors

)

I'm actually not dogmatic.

I'm actually non dogmatic.

I'm actually non dogmatic.

I'm actually non, dogmatic.

I'm actually non, dogma is.

I'm actually non; dogma is!

I'm actually non.

Dogma is!!

[Gerard]

http://www.kheper.net/topics/blind_men_and...phant/Sufi.html

[Marblehead]

If there is no I there is no Karma?

 

 

The Karma is not made up by an I. According to taoist philosophy, it takes alot of effort to build up an I. Most of what people have is just a funny mixture of psychological tensions - that's the modern definition of how personality is created = psychological tensions that create specific patterns of action and re-action.

 

You come to this forum with the preconceived idea that if the majority of the threads are infantile postings, the IQ of the taobums must be really down the drain...

Man... there are many that I know of, who would put you and your buddhist philosophy right where you belong, it's just they don't bother posting that much.

You're not here to enlighten anyone.

 

No I, no Karma... jeez

 

 

Nice post Little1,

 

Yes, I repeated it intentionally.

 

Be well!

 

 

this is what I mean by people getting too defensive, taking everything too seriously, because of attachments to a specific tradition.

 

 

Actually, I have been following your lead in this discussion. I am being a mirror for you to reflect upon.

 

If someone is being too defensive perhaps you are being too aggressive?

 

I feel sure we will work this out but it is going to take time.

 

(Afterall, I am speaking with a lot of young folks here and we all know that the young already know everything.)

 

Be well!

[Marblehead]

http://www.kheper.net/topics/blind_men_and...phant/Sufi.html

 

I have always enjoyed that story. Nice lesson. Thanks for sharing.

 

Be well!

[nac]

A brief view on our favourite Buddhist subconscious thinking process

I'm actually not dogmatic.

I'm actually non dogmatic.

I'm actually non dogmatic.

I'm actually non, dogmatic.

I'm actually non, dogma is.

I'm actually non; dogma is!

I'm actually non.

Dogma is!!

Have compassion for the unenlightened.

 

PS. Thank Buddha for Taoists. In E-Sangha, politically incorrect "flaming" of any religion will get you suspended within 2 seconds. Then again, they've already been sued many times for all sorts of crazy reasons.

Edited August 19, 2009 by nac

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

If they wish to endlessly discuss the finer, more esoteric aspects of Buddhist philosophy/dharma, etc., why do they not have their discussions on e-sangha? Why drag endless technical Buddhism into nearly every thread they get involved in and basically kill any lively discussion? (see 'Chicken or the Egg' thread for a good example of why many of us are so annoyed and increasingly disgusted with the Boorish Buddhists).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Smile]

"Welcome to The Tao Bums discussion forum. This is an informal community created to discuss Tao (Dao), particularly as is expressed in key philosophical texts such as the well known Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu, health and cultivation practices such as Tai Chi and Qigong (Chi Kung), nonconceptual meditation approaches such as Zuowang (sitting and forgetting), and also the historical developments of Taoism as the bona fide Chinese religion of Taoist priests and shamans. Don't let this intro scare you though. Most of us are syncretic at heart. Discussion is encouraged to wander eclectically across a wide range of spiritual thought and practice, whether Buddhist, Yogic, Tantric, Judaic, Advaitic, Christian, Islamic, Shamanic, Occult, "New Age", Integral... As long as you are up for a good time, you're welcome to discuss your path. Though we can get rowdy at times, we all do our best to keep it civil. We are, almost as a rule, rather strange, but we have good hearts and even better senses of humor."

 

This thread has no other purpose but to create an argument.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Smile

[nac]

If they wish to endlessly discuss the finer, more esoteric aspects of Buddhist philosophy/dharma, etc., why do they not have their discussions on e-sangha? Why drag endless technical Buddhism into nearly every thread they get involved in and basically kill any lively discussion? (see 'Chicken or the Egg' thread for a good example of why many of us are so annoyed and increasingly disgusted with the Boorish Buddhists).

.

I ask for forgiveness if that's what I did.

 

BTW I've been banned from E-Sangha until August 22.

[~jK~]

Edited August 19, 2009 by ~jK~

[Vajrahridaya]

If there is no I there is no Karma?

 

 

The Karma is not made up by an I. According to taoist philosophy, it takes alot of effort to build up an I. Most of what people have is just a funny mixture of psychological tensions - that's the modern definition of how personality is created = psychological tensions that create specific patterns of action and re-action.

 

You come to this forum with the preconceived idea that if the majority of the threads are infantile postings, the IQ of the taobums must be really down the drain...

Man... there are many that I know of, who would put you and your buddhist philosophy right where you belong, it's just they don't bother posting that much.

You're not here to enlighten anyone.

 

No I, no Karma... jeez

 

I is both a result of the karma of endless cravings for existence and the receptor of karma as one brings together experiences into a firm identity from birth through life, generally undergoing reactions from previous actions in previous lives in this life as the constructing factor for this new form of an "I", i.e. the parents you are born with and the circumstances that be-fall you seemingly out of your hands, are actually being attracted to you due to cause and effect, causation transcending and preceding this life.

 

If you don't identify with an I, you don't grasp at anything, and everything just flow's, because you haven't centered anything into a stuck construct, you see all interconnectivity because there are no more wall's based on an "I". You're actions transcend subject vs. object in a non-substantial sense and you are flowing seemingly individually with the entirety of the endlessness of the whole flow without calling that a self either, or an "I", in an appropriate manor that is reflective of the highest virtue because your taking in the entirety as you don't have this identity with limited thoughts and experiences anymore and you that you reify as "my self". So, have no identity there-in that is deemed a permanent structure, only an appropriate reflection of infinity in every moment.

 

So, you don't have this... "reified I", you have transcended karma even while karma continues to do it's thing. What you read was a black and white absolutism into a relative, which is why you didn't understand the context of the statement. It's not that having no "I" completely takes away karma, but rather it takes away one's identity with karma and thus one is free from karma. So for a being who is liberated, there is no more karma, just liberated energy in action. Only Nishkam Karma is left, but you yourself don't see it as that really, only others do so that they can learn from you as you are now a teaching body, a Buddha.

 

 

Karma kicks in when there is no I to choose the path in life.

Karma is like an auto-pilot.

The 'I' that people usually have is no more than a mixture of undischarged psychollogical tensions, that make them act and react in specific ways.

The I of the practicioners comes about only when they are able to re-integrate, re-unite all the parts of their being, starting with:

- the reunion between mind, heart and sex

- the reunion between body, soul and spirit

- the reunion of man, earth and heaven

When there is no union, no coherent action, there is no 'I'.

 

What do you think?

 

We basically have an I of no I as a Buddha. There is calming centered-ness referencing infinity from within, but from without, there is just action that is reflective of the need of the moment without attachment to the fruit of the action, just pure focus on the moment without attachment to the past as a wall for being and without fear of the future as a wall for being, just flow. But, internally, through the intuition of dependent origination, one has the constant realization that there is no "I", thus no "karma" as well. Total liberation while in action.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

A holy man who's reference for action far transcends our limited notions may act within societal conventions, or may act outside of them, depending...

 

So, at times a holy man may act in way's that fly completely in the face of our pre-conceived ideas of what it is to be a "holy man". As in what's appropriate may not always conjoin with our notions.

[Pietro]

BTW I've been banned from E-Sangha until August 22.

What happened?

 

Also, I would not be surprised if people advertising taoism on e-shangha gets banned.

 

But what about the buddhist we have here.

Are we hosting buddhists that are unable to express themselves over there,

or just buddhists that are uninterested to express themself over there?

 

It was beautiful, like a Star Wars scroll

 

Yeah, but then the grey should have been on the back. That gives more the sense of the distance. I thought about that but I felt it would give the wrong message. I see the unconscious as being more pervasive, although generally harder to spot, than the conscious thought. So it had to be bigger, and blend more with the background. I then tried to do it the other way around, with the small and black at the end, after all that was meant as the end of a process, but then the reader would start by reading the punch line. And finally the biggest problem: The last line would not fit a single line. I realised later I should just have reached size 6. Bah, noting is perfect, it was just a joke, after all .

[Marblehead]

 

This thread has no other purpose but to create an argument.

 

Well, I suggest we declare it a success!!!!!

 

(Of course, a Taoist Sage is unaware of success or failure.)

 

(But then, a Taoist Sage wouldn't be caught dead in a discussion such as this. Hehehe. Just goes to show you the level I am at at the present time.)

 

Be well!

 

 

 

In China one of the translations for the word "Tao" is "Universe"

Tao actually has many meanings but: Nature of the Universe or Way/Path of the universe, sums it up pretty well.

 

As Such - Buddhism is a part of the Tao. If you exclude a portion of the Tao from conversation - are you really talking of the Tao?

 

Very often Taoist temples are operated by Buddhist monasteries such as in the folowing case:

 

One other - if you are separating Taoism and Buddhism - you cannot leave out Confucianism as it is one of the 3 pillars of Chinese culture & philosophy.

 

 

I just wanted to highlight by repeating these portions of your above post. Thanks.

 

Be well!

[Wayfarer64]

A holy man who's reference for action far transcends our limited notions may act within societal conventions, or may act outside of them, depending...

 

So, at times a holy man may act in way's that fly completely in the face of our pre-conceived ideas of what it is to be a "holy man". As in what's appropriate may not always conjoin with our notions.

 

 

"Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box. Religion is the smile on a dog." What I Am--Edie Brickell & New Bohemians...

[Wayfarer64]

a doer isn't necessary to post. a mover somewhere inside the head pulling levers and pushing buttons. Xabir is a continuum of mental energy with no 'self' nature. this means that Xabir doesn't exist independent of his parts. Xabir is compounded, made up of mental patterns stemming from experiences intermingling with environment and other beings. "Self" or "I" is just an idea that we have made up that isn't based on facts. its a fantasy. this doesn't mean that Xabir doesn't exist. he just posted a really wonderful response! but the "he" isn't a self-entity but rather a bunch of energies coming together and acting.

 

no separation does not mean oneness. As if the whole universe is actually one color, one mind, one sound, one being. etc. no separation means interdependence. like the Yin Yang symbol, you can't have Yin without the Yang, and can't have Yang without the Yin. These two energies aren't one, and they aren't two. they are interdependent, and yet still exist. in Buddhism though, there is no mysterious source of energies, they simply are. they arise based on conditions and causes.

 

not everyone has non-dual insight or insight into the true nature of the self.... so of course there will be disagreement. not everyone has wisdom. i'm not saying I do... i'm still learning and figuring things out.

this just shows how little you know about Buddhist traditions. sorry of that sounds like hubris to you.

sorry about your mother. but your comments came off really ignorant, you made it seem like the world has no suffering.. and now you tell me you know about suffering but view it as opportunity for change? what does that mean? of course i'm not saying that suffering is inherent to all beings and theres nothing that can be done about it. and the whole point of becoming a Buddha isn't to escape into a meditative cocoon its about realizing the true nature of reality and helping other beings. We become Buddhas to help all beings, not to escape the world. there is no world to escape, there is nowhere to escape to, and there is nobody that is escaping.

 

it seems you would agree with a lot of Dharma if you opened your mind to it. I'm not insulting you, i'm just saying you are insulting a tradition that you don't know much about. reading a few Sutras doesn't cut it.

 

Go shill yr dogma elsewhere - I've read and met enough Robed Buddhists to know it is not the WAY for me- I find it lacking in its' options and childish in its precepts. Why would you even care if that supposed "ignorance " exists?

 

I do not get the sense that you wish to help anyone-only convince others of the correctness of yr ideas at this time...

 

I put very little value in any insight that is not arrived at thru experience - be it in meditation, a shared bed or swimming a swollen river.... Crossing the great water as we say... dangers and suffering are just imposed notions we can accept or deny, -up to a point of course - and that is also why violence has a place in our shared reality....

 

I know I am a spirit having a human experience. I know this thru living through several out of body experiences and long long hours of meditaion and martial arts practices. That i arrived at a place of bliss or awakening without Buddhism may up-set yr apple cart of notions about the world around you. That is a good thing - it may even lead to your own satori....

 

Everything is needed to create the balance that is harmony -to those who are in their own Tao - true to their own being and walking the path that they are at their best walking...Nothing is good nor bad... it just is... I can be there often enough to know I am on the right path for me- yr insistance that I read the ideas you espouse is obnoxious in the extreme...

 

I think I shall add you to my ignore list for now, that way I can filter-out yr insistant BS...

 

 

stay well- Pat

[Vajrahridaya]

"Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box. Religion is the smile on a dog." What I Am--Edie Brickell & New Bohemians...

 

Could be.

 

 

I know I am a spirit

 

What is this spirit? What's it made of?

[Pietro]

...

 

Vajrahridaya,

I just post this to let you know that I have added you to my ignore list.

 

As your post will still in part appear as quoted by other users,

I will take you off from that list when I feel your contributions will be more limited, up to the point, and constructive.

 

Till then,

Pietro

[Vajrahridaya]

It's actually good that there are people on any sort of spiritual path at all. That's worth commending...

Edited August 19, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[nac]

What happened?

I'm not entirely sure, but I can make some shrewd guesses. Okay okay, I made a bet with my brother about how much trash the mods are going to take before suspending me. Even I didn't think they'd do it on my first go without any warnings. I already had a warning level of 10%. That means I've been banned before, but I refused to apologize.

 

Also, I would not be surprised if people advertising taoism on e-shangha gets banned.

TBH no, certainly not if the mods decide you're being polite and honest, but the debate never stops. E-Sangha has a LOT of members, some of whom will actually take your side. If they find the topic interesting, the debate will probably go on long after you've left, unless it spawns a flame war. A few E-Sangha members are Taoists with an interest in Buddhism like Daozen, who joined this forum a few months ago on my recommendation but hasn't posted since. He was probably scared away by Taobum's unique take on moderation. Superstitious topics are immediately laughed away from E-Sangha, unless of course it's traditional, approved superstition. But nothing New Agey (or plain stupid) gets past the mods. There are also some de facto Taoists like Erime who are convinced they're Zen Buddhists. Actually, they're somewhere on the spectrum between Taoism and Zen. Many real Far Eastern sects used to be like that.

 

Wayfarer64: Have you really talked to Robed Buddhists? They don't act like us at all. All the monks in E-Sangha at least are unbelievably joyful and rational at the same time. On the other hand, I remember a Pure Land Taiwanese layman who said that many modern Chinese monastics are rather suspect. This kept him suspicious of Buddhism for a long time, almost until his old age.

Edited August 19, 2009 by nac

[Wayfarer64]

I'm not entirely sure, but I can make some shrewd guesses. Okay okay, I made a bet with my brother about how much trash the mods will take before suspending me. Even I didn't think they'd do it on my first go without any warnings. I already had a warning level of 10%. That means I've been banned before, but I refused to apologize.

TBH no, certainly not if the mods decide you're being polite and honest, but the debate never stops. E-Sangha has a LOT of members, some of whom will actually take your side. If they find the topic interesting, the debate will probably go on long after you've left, unless it spawns a flame war. A few E-Sangha members are Taoists with an interest in Buddhism like Daozen, who joined this forum a few months ago on my recommendation but hasn't posted since. He was probably scared away by Taobum's unique take on moderation. Superstitious topics are immediately laughed away from E-Sangha, unless of course it's traditional, approved superstition. But nothing New Agey gets past the mods. There are also some de facto Taoists like Erime who are convinced that they're Zen Buddhists. Actually, they're somewhere on the spectrum between Taoism and Zen. Many real Far Eastern sects used to be like that.

 

Wayfarer64: Have you really talked to Robed Buddhists? They don't act like us at all. All the monks in E-Sangha at least are unbelievably joyful and rational at the same time.

 

Sure -I've sought out & spoken with Buddhist monks In NYC, Madison Wisc., Paris, Princeton NJ, Krung Thep (Bangkok), Chang Mai -(up the Makong from Bangkok), Taiwan, Pagan- (when it was still Burma) and San Fransisco. I have searched the Buddhist path as I walked the world. I have written here how my encounter with the Dalai Lama gave me a glimpse of compassionate wisdom that will always be a large part of my being and seeking. I am not casting aspersions on Buddhism for its own sake - but to jar the simple-mindedness of some Buddhist proponants who have insistantly put the rude in intrude around here of late...I do not suffer fools.- Maybe thats the New Yorker in me!

 

Joy is the most rational of states. What's the deal?

Edited August 19, 2009 by Wayfarer64

[nac]

Sure -I've sought out & spoken with Buddhist monks In NYC, Madison Wisc., Paris, Princeton NJ, Krung Thep (Bangkok), Chang Mai -(up the Makong from Bangkok), Taiwan, Pagan- (when it was still Burma) and San Fransisco. I have searched the Buddhist path as I walked the world. I have written here how my encounter with the Dalai Lama gave me a glimpse of compassionate wisdom that will always be a large part of my being and seeking. I am not casting aspersions on Buddhism for its own sake - but to jar the simple-mindedness of some Buddhist proponants who have insistantly put the rude in intrude around here of late...I do not suffer fools.- Maybe thats the New Yorker in me!

 

Joy is the most rational of states. What's the deal?

Thanks for your efforts. Just asking.

 

_/\_

[Wayfarer64]

Thanks for your efforts. Just asking.

 

_/\_

 

Hey I hope thats what we are all here for - to ask and question- offer our own perspectives and share as fellow seekers - usually it is that way... This thread is a manifestation of a problem that needed to be addressed.

 

For me, the ignore function is a fine tool to buffer the inconsiderate... those who do not concider how they dis-affect or intrude on others, but only wish to propagate their agendas... We have had several here- as itterated above - all of this will pass & I trust that we all will have grown some in the process.

 

The support for/from each-other is real here for many and it is a great blessing. That Buddhists can't seem to get that together on the web is a very serious problem - for them...The forced dogma issue seems to be needeing a good hard look from neophytes, proponants and scholars alike.

 

I say any belief is spurious at best...

[~jK~]

Vajrahridaya,

 

You've been looking for the reasons to meditate - Suprise - it is not what you think.:

First, even in the beginning it gives you an idea of what Karma does & sources

Empty mind form of meditation is designed to erase karma.

Remember the poem I posted?

 

This is meditation: - : see if you can spot the karma portion.

 

 

The 4th Mirror

.

 

Close your eyes and what do you have?

 

No tv, no outside, & no emotional mountains.

 

Only what you know, reason, imagine & your true self.

 

.

 

Guilt, fears, & uncertainties become Ghosts waiting defeat.

 

Actions, past & future, self & others, fall into nature's microscope.

 

The world becomes a large vacant room, wanting to be filled.

 

.

 

Breath becomes a furnace for life-giving energy.

 

Time becomes a crucible for finding purity.

 

Awareness becomes a peak for a seat.

 

.

 

Sight returns new and clear.

 

Eyes looking inward,

 

Seeing outward.

 

.

 

Find Time's

 

Eternal

 

Self

 

.