Should a Taoist Forum focus primarily on Taoism?

[Marblehead]

Hi Pietro,

 

You caused me laughter. Thanks.

 

Be well!

[Nanashi]

It is. How would you apply it in this situation?

 

"He who is skilled in war subdues the enemy without fighting."

[Pietro]

"He who is skilled in war subdues the enemy without fighting."

 

maybe we did made some progress then.

 

As I keep on reading and rereading Gandhi I realised the incredible change of frame of his message. He does not aim to convert the enemy, but to appeal to his humanity, without even convertung him.

 

But yes, I think you are right. This is part of what Sun Tzu teaches us here.

[Nanashi]

Yes, and even in the works of Gandhi's inspiration, Henry David Thoreau. Walden reads like early American Taoism (in spirit), but I don't recall how closely he was influenced by the Transcendentalist movement of the time.

[Pietro]

Yes, and even in the works of Gandhi's inspiration, Henry David Thoreau. Walden reads like early American Taoism (in spirit), but I don't recall how closely he was influenced by the Transcendentalist movement of the time.

Hello Nanashi,

I don't know the others, but I know nothing of the Trascendentalists. In the Italian High School Curriculum of 1987 they didn't appear unfortunately. Do you think you could tell us something. Just open a thread for this, as it sounds like it might be an interesting topic, full of tension, and drama, and surprises!

[Nanashi]

I suppose the movement died out, and I'm no expert of their philosophy, but I know they appreciated Nature, and didn't like the aggressive methods and effects of an increasingly industrialized world. That's the extent of my knowledge with them, but I agree it would make for interesting study.

[Wayfarer64]

Yes, and even in the works of Gandhi's inspiration, Henry David Thoreau. Walden reads like early American Taoism (in spirit), but I don't recall how closely he was influenced by the Transcendentalist movement of the time.

 

What I was told in High School is that... Thoreau was so influenced...

 

To the point of this thread there is indeed a problem with how a few rude and intrusive people use this forum. That some are at this time promulgating a self-centered and childishly interpreted sort of knowledge of Buddhism...is just too bad - it is a dis-service to people who practice Buddhist ways and keep their religiosity and like types of foolishness to themselves.

 

Sure, all men of wisdom know that non-violence is the way of choice...It is a given - but only a martyr would not be concidered a fool... if he chooses to create dangers for himself with promulgating anti-social and abusive arguements...amongst martial artists and warriors....

 

 

As for Buddhist teachings- I see it being rife with hypocracy and fearof living a full and natural life...

Buddhist thought mnay tender a strong meaning when one is near death, but it seems mostly a weak and childish philosophy to me - as I enjoy life - fear no sort of suffering - other than my own foolishness, hubris, meanness and ill-will, which can be manifested when arroused by others' foolishness, hubris, meanness and ill-will...

 

That is the nature of provocation...It is meant to get attention -for good or ill - it is self-centered and immature in its nature...

 

And that is why WE HAVE THE GREATLY USEFUL IGNORE OPTION HERE!!!!!

 

I have used it with 4 folks here thus far - it works, there is no subjecting ones' mind to the banter of fools if you don't wish to do so...

 

Love to all- Pat

[CarsonZi]

Oh were hardly everywhere, only where misunderstanding abounds... why not try to correct peoples mis-understandings? Only ego's get mad.

 

Only ego's think that they can rid others of their misunderstandings. Only ego's think that THEY have the answers others need. Only ego's post in every topic saying that they know and can expound on "The Way" for others.

 

 

Love,

Carson

[Pietro]

What I was told in High School is that... Thoreau was so influenced...

 

To the point of this thread there is indeed a problem with how a few rude and intrusive people use this forum. That some are at this time promulgating a self-centered and childishly interpreted sort of knowledge of Buddhism...is just too bad - it is a dis-service to people who practice Buddhist ways and keep their religiosity and like types of foolishness to themselves.

 

Sure, all men of wisdom know that non-violence is the way of choice...It is a given - but only a martyr would not be concidered a fool... if he chooses to create dangers for himself with promulgating anti-social and abusive arguements...amongst martial artists and warriors....

As for Buddhist teachings- I see it being rife with hypocracy and fearof living a full and natural life...

Buddhist thought mnay tender a strong meaning when one is near death, but it seems mostly a weak and childish philosophy to me - as I enjoy life - fear no sort of suffering - other than my own foolishness, hubris, meanness and ill-will, which can be manifested when arroused by others' foolishness, hubris, meanness and ill-will...

 

That is the nature of provocation...It is meant to get attention -for good or ill - it is self-centered and immature in its nature...

 

And that is why WE HAVE THE GREATLY USEFUL IGNORE OPTION HERE!!!!!

 

I have used it with 4 folks here thus far - it works, there is no subjecting ones' mind to the banter of fools if you don't wish to do so...

 

Love to all- Pat

 

 

What happens when we use the ignore option Pat?

 

I never used it so I don't know.

First of all you are speaking about:

go to the profile page>profile option (drop down menu)>ignore user

 

I suppose we are not going to receive the culprit PM. But no one is so offending us (or at least me). What happens to the board? Does the board suddenly get cleaned of any post from the culprit and you are suddenly transmigrated into a parallel universe where those posts were not written and the discussion follows a different pattern? I am curious.

(as a programmer it's interesting to think how would you code something like that ;-) ). A computer program that let you switch universe in the multiverse :-D

[Wayfarer64]

What happens when we use the ignore option Pat?

 

I never used it so I don't know.

First of all you are speaking about:

go to the profile page>profile option (drop down menu)>ignore user

 

I suppose we are not going to receive the culprit PM. But no one is so offending us (or at least me). What happens to the board? Does the board suddenly get cleaned of any post from the culprit and you are suddenly transmigrated into a parallel universe where those posts were not written and the discussion follows a different pattern? I am curious.

(as a programmer it's interesting to think how would you code something like that ;-) ). A computer program that let you switch universe in the multiverse :-D

 

You need to be logged on to have it work. Then every post by an ignored party is offered as an option to read or not read, but the thread remains in place and those who one wishes to ignore... need not be intrusive. There can be exposure anyway... as ignored posts are often quoted in other entries - so it acts only as a buffer, not an irradication.... Mostly it serves to remind you the ignored person is annoying and not worth much time...

[Pietro]

You need to be logged on to have it work. Then every post by an ignored party is offered as an option to read or not read, but the thread remains in place and those who one wishes to ignore... need not be intrusive. There can be exposure anyway... as ignored posts are often quoted in other entries - so it acts only as a buffer, not an irradication.... Mostly it serves to remind you the ignored person is annoying and not worth much time...

thanks, it's really cool!

[Wayfarer64]

thanks, it's really cool!

 

Thank the maker !!! ( or Sean O.)...To quote C3PO...

[Sunya]

As for Buddhist teachings- I see it being rife with hypocracy and fearof living a full and natural life...

Buddhist thought mnay tender a strong meaning when one is near death, but it seems mostly a weak and childish philosophy to me - as I enjoy life - fear no sort of suffering - other than my own foolishness, hubris, meanness and ill-will, which can be manifested when arroused by others' foolishness, hubris, meanness and ill-will...

 

I I I I I I

 

until the existence of that I is questioned, the I will think that Buddhism is a chilidish stupid philosophy. infact the I will make up very incredible theories to keep itself alive and ideas on how life should be lived in order to find meaning and wonder and satisfaction, but the illusion never questioned, the I continues to subtly suffer without even realizing it. a very sad tale.

[Wayfarer64]

I I I I I I

 

until the existence of that I is questioned, the I will think that Buddhism is a chilidish stupid philosophy. infact the I will make up very incredible theories to keep itself alive and ideas on how life should be lived in order to find meaning and wonder and satisfaction, but the illusion never questioned, the I continues to subtly suffer without even realizing it. a very sad tale.

 

BAH!

 

There is ALWAYS meaning and wonder and satisfaction and there is no suffering in my world, (that I do not create myself).

 

If it is such that one burns ones' fingers - the trick is "not minding " the burn...The mind - the I you speak of has a universal componant as well as the indevidual componant. To realize that the I is just a part of the ONE and All is enough to quell all suffering, which is only a self imposed state of reflection anyway...

 

Buddhism is a rather complete cave-in to escapism... Taoists accept the I as their responsibility, not as a disparaged entity to be rid of. The awareness of transcendant unity with the one and all quells the escapist tendencies that are sought by some.

 

If you see what you describe as very sad... it is only your perception that is sad... My own perception of the awful "Maya" Buddhism fears and loathes is that it is only the 10,000 things manifesting the dance of glorious life. I have no fear of life. I accept its harshness and softness its heat and its cold and know it is ALL good as the manifestation of being that offers EVERYTHING and rejects nothing...

[Sunya]

BAH!

 

There is ALWAYS meaning and wonder and satisfaction and there is no suffering in my world, (that I do not create myself).

 

If it is such that one burns ones' fingers - the trick is "not minding " the burn...The mind - the I you speak of has a universal componant as well as the indevidual componant. To realize that the I is just a part of the ONE and All is enough to quell all suffering, which is only a self imposed state of reflection anyway...

 

Buddhism is a rather complete cave-in to escapism... Taoists accept the I as their responsibility, not as a disparaged entity to be rid of. The awareness of transcendant unity with the one and all quells the escapist tendencies that are sought by some.

 

If you see what you describe as very sad... it is only your perception that is sad... My own perception of the awful "Maya" Buddhism fears and loathes is that it is only the 10,000 things manifesting the dance of glorious life. I have no fear of life. I accept its harshness and softness its heat and its cold and know it is ALL good as the manifestation of being that offers EVERYTHING and rejects nothing...

 

Buddhism is about insight, not escaping. the true nature of the self is to be realized. and accepting the way things are is part of the process. Fear is to be transcended and so is loathing. and the 10,000 things are embraced for what they are, empty with no source. The cosmos is the intermingling of energies, a dance.

 

As I told you before, you really don't know much about Buddhism. you even use Hindu terms like Maya which Buddhists don't use. I pointed you before to websites where you can learn and expand your awareness, but obviously you didn't do that.

 

There is no suffering in this world? man are you crazy? go to India or Africa or areas of China or South America. Just because theres no suffering for you in your mother's basement doesn't mean that other beings aren't suffering. Buddhism is about waking up to how the world truly is, and part of that is realizing how everyone is suffering. If you havent' realized that, that doesn't mean that suffering doesn't exist.

 

It's really you that holds a childish view. You're projecting your own fears and insecurities onto a tradition which you know nothing about.

[Marblehead]

Buddhism is about insight, not escaping. the true nature of the self is to be realized. and accepting the way things are is part of the process. Fear is to be transcended and so is loathing. and the 10,000 things are embraced for what they are, empty with no source. The cosmos is the intermingling of energies, a dance.

 

As I told you before, you really don't know much about Buddhism. you even use Hindu terms like Maya which Buddhists don't use. I pointed you before to websites where you can learn and expand your awareness, but obviously you didn't do that.

 

There is no suffering in this world? man are you crazy? go to India or Africa or areas of China or South America. Just because theres no suffering for you in your mother's basement doesn't mean that other beings aren't suffering. Buddhism is about waking up to how the world truly is, and part of that is realizing how everyone is suffering. If you havent' realized that, that doesn't mean that suffering doesn't exist.

 

It's really you that holds a childish view. You're projecting your own fears and insecurities onto a tradition which you know nothing about.

 

Hi Mikaelz,

 

Okay. I thought that this is a good post except I do not agree with those words I placed in bold.

 

And the strike-thru two sentences weren't necessary but they were appropriate in the current conversation.

 

The 10,000 things are just as real as any other aspect of Tao (the All).

 

There really are non-Buddhists who have learned how to avoid suffering. Some of them live in the poorest parts of Africa, China and South America.

 

Be well!

Edited August 18, 2009 by Marblehead

[Wayfarer64]

To make points I use hyperboli (spellin)... so what? I use terms that I use because they work for me. I have nothing to prove or axe to grind other than a resentment for the hubris of you Buddhists and yr holier than thou attitudes.

 

I have read thru the Koran twice the Bible twice and uncounted other spiritual and religious texts over the past 45 years. Most of it is non-sense.

 

I have read many buddhist sutras in English translation. They are grand and meaningful to me.

 

The BS religiosity that grew out of them is childish and escapist. I do not place the sutras in that catagory, only the religiosity expressed by some of you guys here. It is antagonistic and not condusive to anything but rancor.

 

That you are so foolish as to insult ANYONE here shows how little you understand about Taoists. Hubris is not acceptable behavior to Taoists. That you choose to insult me is just a reflection of yr ignorance of the world around you and yr place in it.

 

That you would say that I am in my mothers' basement is to the point. My mother died years ago. She never had a basement. I have been around the world 4 times visited 36 countries and 42 of these USA States. I have seen much suffering and have done what I could to alleviate it.

 

I said IN MY world there is no suffering - because I do not see this stuff as suffering so much as opportunity to change and make things better- not escape into a meditative caccoon of self-imposed exile...I meditate to become a more intrinsic part of this world and find a more useful place in it.

 

 

Seek how to live this life -it is all you really have -and in that Taoist philosophy may be of some help to you- but i doubt it - its that capasity thing- if you can imagine it being so it is so only for you - in yr mind - no where else...Taoism gets beyond that in ways you could perhaps one day fathom- who knows?

 

Even spoiled rich kids get to be Buddhas in this world!

Edited August 18, 2009 by Wayfarer64

[xabir2005]

Edited August 18, 2009 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

Well xabir2005,

 

If the is no 'you' what are these words this 'you that doesn't exist doing in the post above?

 

And if there is no separation why is it that there are people who are disagreeing with what this 'you that doesn't exist'?

 

Yes, the universe will continue to exist after you and I have died. That's pretty much a given. And any people still around will have to deal with their own problems. Some find answers - some don't.

 

Be well!

[Sunya]

Well xabir2005,

 

If the is no 'you' what are these words this 'you that doesn't exist doing in the post above?

 

And if there is no separation why is it that there are people who are disagreeing with what this 'you that doesn't exist'?

 

Yes, the universe will continue to exist after you and I have died. That's pretty much a given. And any people still around will have to deal with their own problems. Some find answers - some don't.

 

Be well!

 

a doer isn't necessary to post. a mover somewhere inside the head pulling levers and pushing buttons. Xabir is a continuum of mental energy with no 'self' nature. this means that Xabir doesn't exist independent of his parts. Xabir is compounded, made up of mental patterns stemming from experiences intermingling with environment and other beings. "Self" or "I" is just an idea that we have made up that isn't based on facts. its a fantasy. this doesn't mean that Xabir doesn't exist. he just posted a really wonderful response! but the "he" isn't a self-entity but rather a bunch of energies coming together and acting.

 

no separation does not mean oneness. As if the whole universe is actually one color, one mind, one sound, one being. etc. no separation means interdependence. like the Yin Yang symbol, you can't have Yin without the Yang, and can't have Yang without the Yin. These two energies aren't one, and they aren't two. they are interdependent, and yet still exist. in Buddhism though, there is no mysterious source of energies, they simply are. they arise based on conditions and causes.

 

not everyone has non-dual insight or insight into the true nature of the self.... so of course there will be disagreement. not everyone has wisdom. i'm not saying I do... i'm still learning and figuring things out.

 

To make points I use hyperboli (spellin)... so what? I use terms that I use because they work for me. I have nothing to prove or axe to grind other than a resentment for the hubris of you Buddhists and yr holier than thou attitudes.

 

I have read thru the Koran twice the Bible twice and uncounted other spiritual and religious texts over the past 45 years. Most of it is non-sense.

 

I have read many buddhist sutras in English translation. They are grand and meaningful to me.

 

The BS religiosity that grew out of them is childish and escapist. I do not place the sutras in that catagory, only the religiosity expressed by some of you guys here. It is antagonistic and not condusive to anything but rancor.

 

this just shows how little you know about Buddhist traditions. sorry of that sounds like hubris to you.

 

That you are so foolish as to insult ANYONE here shows how little you understand about Taoists. Hubris is not acceptable behavior to Taoists. That you choose to insult me is just a reflection of yr ignorance of the world around you and yr place in it

 

That you would say that I am in my mothers' basement is to the point. My mother died years ago. She never had a basement. I have been around the world 4 times visited 36 countries and 42 of these USA States. I have seen much suffering and have done what I could to alleviate it.

 

I said IN MY world there is no suffering - because I do not see this stuff as suffering so much as opportunity to change and make things better- not escape into a meditative caccoon of self-imposed exile...I meditate to become a more intrinsic part of this world and find a more useful place in it.

Seek how to live this life -it is all you really have -and in that Taoist philosophy may be of some help to you- but i doubt it - its that capasity thing- if you can imagine it being so it is so only for you - in yr mind - no where else...Taoism gets beyond that in ways you could perhaps one day fathom- who knows?

 

Even spoiled rich kids get to be Buddhas in this world!

 

sorry about your mother. but your comments came off really ignorant, you made it seem like the world has no suffering.. and now you tell me you know about suffering but view it as opportunity for change? what does that mean? of course i'm not saying that suffering is inherent to all beings and theres nothing that can be done about it. and the whole point of becoming a Buddha isn't to escape into a meditative cocoon its about realizing the true nature of reality and helping other beings. We become Buddhas to help all beings, not to escape the world. there is no world to escape, there is nowhere to escape to, and there is nobody that is escaping.

 

it seems you would agree with a lot of Dharma if you opened your mind to it. I'm not insulting you, i'm just saying you are insulting a tradition that you don't know much about. reading a few Sutras doesn't cut it.

Edited August 18, 2009 by mikaelz

[Marblehead]

Hi mikaelz,

 

a doer isn't necessary to post.

 

You just cancelled any reason for me to read any further of your post. If noone is posting then the post does not exist so there is no reason for me to read it because it doesn't exist.

 

Sad that you folks won't admit the you exist so that I might communicate with you.

 

Be well!

Edited August 18, 2009 by Marblehead

[xabir2005]

Well xabir2005,

 

If the is no 'you' what are these words this 'you that doesn't exist doing in the post above?

 

And if there is no separation why is it that there are people who are disagreeing with what this 'you that doesn't exist'?

 

Yes, the universe will continue to exist after you and I have died. That's pretty much a given. And any people still around will have to deal with their own problems. Some find answers - some don't.

 

Be well!

 

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found

 

The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:

 

Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,

 

The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen."

 

- Visudhimagga

 

 

 

Look and see if you can find a doer apart from the deed.

Edited August 18, 2009 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

But I did read the rest of it out of courtesy.

 

not everyone has non-dual insight or insight into the true nature of the self.... so of course there will be disagreement.

 

This is important, I think. You see, we Taoists do hold to the concept of non-duality. It is called 'wu'. And the state of the 10,000 things is called 'yo'. We Taoists embrace both - denying neither. It is just that we do acknowledge the reality of 'yo' just as we acknoledge the reality of 'wu'.

 

It is not that we Taoists (at least this one) do not accept that there is a state of non-duality, it is that we accept that there is a state of duality (the 10,000 things) as well.

 

Yes, one can attain 100% state of wu. Many experienced Taoists do this through meditation. And there are also people all over the world who are in the state of 100% yo. Most people are somewhere between the two.

 

Yes, I and everything else on this planet are composed of energy. That is the essence of Tao. But that doesn't make me any less than what I am, a manifestation of Tao. Once we realize that then we can begin working to solve our manifest problems - to eliminate our suffering - to lessen our pain. And then when we have established ourselves we can help others who are suffering and in pain.

 

To ignore the manifest is to ignore the reality of Tao and its processes.

 

Be well!

[Marblehead]

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found

 

The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:

 

Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,

 

The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen."

 

- Visudhimagga

Look and see if you can find a doer apart from the deed.

 

Okay. I accept the first three words of the first line. (Hey! That's a start. Hehehe.)

 

But the rest suggests that something is but something is not. It cannot be and not be at the same time in the manifest. It is not possible. That is what the manifest is all about - isness. The Mystery is 'not-isness'. Tao is both but not either singularly. Yo is a subset of wu, that is, the Manifest is a physical representation of the Mystery.

 

Suffering exists and the sufferer exists,

Deeds exist and the performer exist,

(I don't know what Nibbana is.)

The path exists and the walker of the path exists.

 

I am the doer at the present moment who is pressing the keys on this keyboard in a process that creates words on my computer monitor as well as in the CPU of the computer (via electrical impulses) that will be sent to the destination so indicated. This is real stuff. Really!

 

Be well!

[Pietro]

But I did read the rest of it out of courtesy.

 

Oh, Sensei!,

thanks for your teachings about Sun Tzu!

 

I can now see how you are pretending to enter into this discussion, pretending to be misguided by your excessive courtesy, but deeply you are not confusing the map with the buddherritory. You are just showing this to us to show how to gain the enemies heart.

 

Now that we got our lesson Sensei!,

I would suggest to retreat on this front.

As you, Sensei!, are in deep doodo,

as xabir wrote right, although I cannot say if he is right, for I cannot say if he is.

 

I would suggest prudence,

Sensei!

 

Be well!

 

Thank you,

Sensei!.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Pietro