Dangerous Meditation

[soundhunter]

Was just reading Down the Crooked Path, which is a blog devoted to writings, articles, research and various accounts of and about mental illness, physical illness, and other problems related to Hindu and Buddhist meditation retreats and practices. I haven't seen anything there about Taoist meditation consequences of this sort, but I'm curious if there are accounts of similar things happening with any of the internal alchemy practices and related meditations? I pretty much only practice stillness meditation at this point, and I really can't see there being any danger in this, or is there? Have any of you have personal experiences like those she describes, or people you know?

Edited August 13, 2009 by soundhunter

[Lucky7Strikes]

Was just reading Down the Crooked Path, which is a blog devoted to writings, articles, research and various accounts of and about mental illness, physical illness, and other problems related to Hindu and Buddhist meditation retreats and practices. I haven't seen anything there about Taoist meditation consequences of this sort, but I'm curious if there are accounts of similar things happening with any of the internal alchemy practices and related meditations? I pretty much only practice stillness meditation at this point, and I really can't see there being any danger in this, or is there? Have any of you have personal experiences like those she describes, or people you know?

 

Very interesting. Thank you!

 

I read through a few accounts and they seem to do with Kundalini not being well handled. Qi Gong and stillness mediation are all grounding based practices (or should be at least), so I don't think there can be anything too dangerous.

 

Kundalini is serious business.

[Marblehead]

Hi Soundhunter,

 

There is one form of meditation some Taoists get involved in that can be dangerous. It is a form of very deep meditation similar to what some of the Native Americans call a Spirit Quest.

 

Chances are you will never incounter this on your own so I wouldn't worry about it. Those who do learn about it will probably already have a teacher/guide who will assist with the practice.

 

No, I do not have first hand info on this but it is what I have been told by someone who I considered knowledgeable enough to speak about it.

 

Be well!

[JustARandomPanda]

What is Kriya Yoga and why is it so dangerous?

[Vajrahridaya]

What is Kriya Yoga and why is it so dangerous?

 

Only without proper guidence from a liberated master. When entering into other dimensional type of energy practices, one can open lots of really deep closets in the subconscious or unconscious mind, and one needs the protection of enlightened lineage from beyond the grave connected to living guidance. Because the practice is crossing the bridge between the 5 sense experience and transcendent of those limits type experiences.

[Inedible]

Only without proper guidence from a liberated master. When entering into other dimensional type of energy practices, one can open lots of really deep closets in the subconscious or unconscious mind, and one needs the protection of enlightened lineage from beyond the grave connected to living guidance. Because the practice is crossing the bridge between the 5 sense experience and transcendent of those limits type experiences.

 

You wrote three sentences. Do you really believe what you wrote in the second one - specifically about relying on a lineage of dead people? And what are you even talking about in the third?

 

What is Kriya Yoga and why is it so dangerous?

 

Kriya Yoga was created by an enlightened master known as Babaji. It was his lineage being described and practiced in "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramhansa Yogananda. There is even a technique described in that book as a Kriya - a technique in Kriya Yoga in this context - which will look very familiar to anyone who has done the microcosmic orbit meditation. Actually, Kriya Yoga is a bit of a compilation of traditions. The goal is to awaken Kundalini and open the third eye and to use the energy of Kundalini to reach out through the third eye to merge with God. By itself, Kriya Yoga is perfectly safe and effective, but the problem is that no one practices in a vacuum and we all bring various faults with us to our practices. To the extent that there are instabilities and imbalances present, any sufficiently powerful set of techniques can seriously disrupt your life and your health. Often these instabilities and imbalances are of the sort that do not normally get noticed in daily life, so there is a tendency to put the blame on the path you have chosen by saying that it has caused problems. It is true that a good teacher - someone who has been working a path for long enough to smooth out many of their own problems - can be very helpful when it is time for you to work through any of your own.

 

The important thing to remember is that you have to live your life. Make sure you have plenty of support in your life before you decide to plunge yourself off into the deep end of the pool. Most people find their lives a bit uncomfortable at times, but they really don't want to change anything deep down. That's the other part of the problem. When you are getting started there is really no way to predict what you are getting yourself into. The only reason to do it is because you can't stand to have things keep going the way they are and you must change or die trying.

[sabin1star]

You wrote three sentences. Do you really believe what you wrote in the second one - specifically about relying on a lineage of dead people? And what are you even talking about in the third?

[snip]

The important thing to remember is that you have to live your life. Make sure you have plenty of support in your life before you decide to plunge yourself off into the deep end of the pool. Most people find their lives a bit uncomfortable at times, but they really don't want to change anything deep down. That's the other part of the problem. When you are getting started there is really no way to predict what you are getting yourself into. The only reason to do it is because you can't stand to have things keep going the way they are and you must change or die trying.

 

I don't see anything odd about relying on one's lineage. That's all part of tradition in many schools. I do agree with your point about having support in one's life.

[Aetherous]

Every meditation can be dangerous. The same as walking can be dangerous, if there's ice around. Or breathing can be dangerous, if there's toxic gas in the air.

 

If things smell funny, and are getting slippery, stop what you're doing.

[Marblehead]

Every meditation can be dangerous. The same as walking can be dangerous, if there's ice around. Or breathing can be dangerous, if there's toxic gas in the air.

 

If things smell funny, and are getting slippery, stop what you're doing.

 

Simple wisdom. Thanks Scotty!

 

Be well!

[froggie]

Only without proper guidence from a liberated master. When entering into other dimensional type of energy practices, one can open lots of really deep closets in the subconscious or unconscious mind, and one needs the protection of enlightened lineage from beyond the grave connected to living guidance. Because the practice is crossing the bridge between the 5 sense experience and transcendent of those limits type experiences.

 

But it's only as dangerous as you make it. (or better said: there is nothing to fear when you have nothing to fear about. (etc.) and warning of fear and talking of fear creates (more) fear all by itself.

 

Fear creates fear, and many other things. (represion also creates fear, belittlement also creates fear, denial of developement also creates fear. underdevelopement also creates fear. and to top it off: some people profit by making other people fearful.)

 

 

p.s. having said that, (and know a bit about it) the unconcious mind is not that big of a deal, if the rest is in the right place also. (you know, your feelings, your ways of usual thinking, etc).

take it fwiw

Edited August 13, 2009 by froggie

[Birch]

[Mal]

[Erdrickgr]

[Mal]

Sun Pu-erh felt as if she had awakened from a bad dream. Everything seemed clear now. Once again she had learned that intelligence can become an obstacle to training and that true learning is limitless.

 

She vowed to herself that from now on she would be humble and learn whatever there is to learn.

 

A few days later Ma Yu prepared to attend a celebration in a nearby town. He asked Sun Pu-erh to accompany him, but she pleaded sick and said she could not make the journey.

 

Left alone in the mansion she felt this would be a good opportunity to go to Wang Ch'ung-yang and humbly ask for instructions.

 

She went to the meditation hall and found him sitting quietly in meditation.

 

After a short while, he said "Those who seek the Way are nonattached to life and death. The heart is void of form and free of dust.

 

There are no thoughts or feelings that tie one to the material plane. Their being is like the bright moon in a cloudless sky. With the spark of original nature they intuit the mystery of heaven and earth.

 

They understand the principles behind yin and yang, and, using the methods of internal alchemy, they return to the void and emerge with Tao. They are one with the sun and moon, they age with heaven and earth and achieve the highest rank of immortality in heaven.

 

This is the Great Vehicle. It is the fastest and most direct path to immortality."

 

"Your student aspires to the Great Vehicle." Sun Pu-erh replied.

 

"You have ambitious aspirations, but I don't know whether you have the discipline and perseverance to pursue that path."

 

"Sir, my aspirations are not ambitious, but my will is strong. I am willing to sacrfice everything to attain the Great Vehicle."

 

"Those who cultivate the Way must find a place that is condusive to training. Certain places are filled with power, and training at these places will enhance one's progress.

 

There is a power hidden in the city of Loyang, and the gods have ordained that an immortal will emerge from there. One need merely cultivate oneself for ten to twelve years, and immortality will be attained. Are you weilling to go?"

 

"I am willing to go anywhere if that is what is required to cultivate the Great Vehicle."

 

Wang Ch'ung-yang looked at Sun Pu-erh and then shook his head. "You cannot go."

 

"I am willing to do anything, I am willing to die, if necessary." Sun Pu-erh said.

 

"Dying is a waste if it achieves no purpose. To simply throw your life away is to rob yourself of the chance to become an immortal. Loyang is more than a thousand miles away.

 

You will meet with perils along the way. You will be the target of men who desire your beauty. They will take and molest you. And rather than be shamed, you would take your own life before they touch you.

 

Now, is that not wasting your life to no purpose? Not only will you not achieve immortality but you will throw away what was given to you by Heaven. That is why I said you cannot go."

 

Sun Pu-erh left the meditation hall and went directly to the kitchen. Telling the servants to leave, she filled a wok with cooking oil, heated the oil until it was hot, and then poured in cold water.

 

The oil sizzled, and sparks of hot liquid shot out of the wok. Sun Pu-erh closed her eyes and let the liquid hit her face, burning the skin in numerous places; even after healing, the burns would leave scars and marks all over her face.

 

She then returned to Wang Ch'un-yang and said, "Look at my ugly face. Now will you allow me to travel to Loyang?"

 

"I have never seen one as determined as you are or willing to sacrifice so much. I did not come to Shantung Province in vain. You shall go to Loyang."

 

Wang Ch'ung-yang then taught Sun pu-erh the methods of internal alchemy. He showed her how to immerse fire in water, how to unite yin and yang, and how to concieve and nourish the spirit.

 

When he was satisfied that Sun Pu-erh remembered and understood the instructions, he said, "Remember, hide your knowledge. Do not let people know you are a seeker of the Way.

 

After you have finished the Great Alchemical Work, then you may reveal yourself and teach others. In the meantime, let your face heal. Do not even let your servants know of your plans. Leave as soon as you are ready.

 

You need not come to say farewell. We shall meet again soon at the celebration of the ripening of the immortal peach."

 

Sun Pu-erh thanked him and left the meditation hall. On her way back to her room, she ran into a servant, who screamed when she saw the lady's face.

 

Sun Pu-erh locked herself in her room for the next few days and reviewed Wang Ch'ung-yang's instructions. When Ma Yu returned hoime, the servants told him about his wifes accident and strange behavior.

 

Sun Pu-erh's pretended insanity succeded in getting everyone in the mansion to leave her alone. She reviewed the instructions repeatedly until she could perform them naturally and effortlessly.

 

A month passed and she noticed her face in the mirror. Scars and pockmarks dotted her face. Since she had not combed her hair for a month, she was no longer the beautiful wife of a wealthy merchant.

 

Sun Pu-erh was delighted. She was now ready to make the journey to Loyang. With a piece of charcoal she smeared her face and her clothing. Looking like a mad beggar-woman, she ran out the living room, laughed wildly, and rushed out the front door.

 

A servant tried to stop her, but she bit the girl in the arm. Yelping in pain, the servant let go of her. The other servants alerted Ma Yu. He sent the servants to search the immediate countryside but they were unable to find her.

 

She hid until everything was silent, she quietly slipped out and walked toward Loyang. Along the way, she slept in abandoned temples and caves.

 

She obtained her food from begging, and when people asked who she was, she acted insane and uttered nonsense. In this way, people left her alone, and eventually she arrived safely in Loyang.

 

More...

[Gerard]

Was just reading Down the Crooked Path, which is a blog devoted to writings, articles, research and various accounts of and about mental illness, physical illness, and other problems related to Hindu and Buddhist meditation retreats and practices. I haven't seen anything there about Taoist meditation consequences of this sort, but I'm curious if there are accounts of similar things happening with any of the internal alchemy practices and related meditations? I pretty much only practice stillness meditation at this point, and I really can't see there being any danger in this, or is there? Have any of you have personal experiences like those she describes, or people you know?

 

You are ill-informed as well as that book. Mainstream BS I would say.

 

A proper Buddhist retreat would teach this:

 

http://www.mahamakuta.inet.co.th/english/b-way(7).html

 

In other words, MINDFUL prostration + MINDFUL walking + MINDFUL sitting.

 

Before you start a retreat you must answer the following question:

 

Do you have any history of mental illness? If yes, I am afraid that we cannot allow you to come to X

 

Why is this so? Simply because meditating for many hours a day and intensively will quickly bring up underlying mental conditions plus a myriad of other things, including karma.

 

 

Edited: Anyway, once you reach a certain level of spiritual development all spiritual traditions simply boil down to the same principle: morality, selflessness, no ego and compassion to all sentient beings.

Edited August 14, 2009 by durkhrod chogori

[Erdrickgr]

Do you have any history of mental illness? If yes, I am afraid that we cannot allow you to come to X

 

Why is this so? Simply because meditating for many hours a day and intensively will quickly bring up underlying mental conditions plus a myriad of other things, including karma.

 

I want to say something, but I'm not sure what. It's just a shame that the people most in need of healing would be turned away...

 

Then again, as someone with bipolar disorder, maybe I'm just getting defensive

[Mal]

It's really tricky re:mental illness

 

Non pc mode. Even the most balanced, intelligent, wise and functional individuals are going to suffer a lot during the upheaval and turmoil of working through a myriad of experiences till they regain their stability.

 

Start off with mental illness or an already shaky relationship with "reality" or "society" and it's asking a LOT of a teacher or system to actually be able to improve someone life, rather than do harm to it. Short courses and seminars are particularity vulnerable to doing harm.

 

Mental illness definitely is not a barrier, it's just an extra obstical on a dificult path. Some people thrive on the challenge. But some teachers are not equipped to deal with it.

[Marblehead]

Edited August 14, 2009 by Marblehead

[Erdrickgr]

Ahh yes, I keep forgetting that it is not only Taoist belief/practices/history which are being described on this forum, thank you

[-O-]

..

Edited August 25, 2009 by -O-

[froggie]

I want to say something, but I'm not sure what. It's just a shame that the people most in need of healing would be turned away...

 

Then again, as someone with bipolar disorder, maybe I'm just getting defensive

 

it shows and tells me that they are not really capable at all.

 

it's probably just a facade and words and they tell you something fancy and you do the work and get whatever results you may be having. you might as well not go there and learn things better on your own (or a real teacher (who wouldn't have to turn anyone away i'm sure, because of being accomplished in that way) and simultaniously saving the expense (of money etc)

 

if someone doesn't dare to take responsability for what they are teaching, then they are no teacher at all imo.

 

it seems more like a business plan than a service.

[-O-]

 

it seems more like a business plan than a service.

 

 

 

 

Not all false motives are money driven - allot of teachers simply like/need the attention. You can not hold the identity of a "teacher" without the presence of "students". And, just as successful people like to see others fail - these types of teachers have a vested interest in keeping their "students" as students. It is a very nice place to be - beyond reproach; ideas and inspirations asserted as realities and never challenged by others. A little like being a god.

[Creation]

Since someone brought up the issue of mental illness and meditation, here is a nice blast from the tao bums past:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...ost&p=68729

The author had a family history of mental illness and an abysmal childhood, so naturally developed mental illness herself (bipolar disorder, I believe), and then by messing with dangerous spiritual practices got herself into an even sicker mental state. Eventually, she used meditation and qigong to heal herself. Quite an inspiring read, if you have a bit of time to read it.

[Meson]

I want to say something, but I'm not sure what. It's just a shame that the people most in need of healing would be turned away...

 

I agree with you. Also, that it doesn't necessarily have to be about lust for money or guru status - a lot of teachers just won't have the knowledge to treat all health issues. Being a meditation master does not necessarily endow you with the skills of a psychotherapist, MD or healer.

 

If in doubt, get a referral or a second opinion!

 

-O-, thanks for sharing that story. A very cautionary tale, I hope she makes progress.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Meson

[Gerard]

...Mental illness definitely is not a barrier, it's just an extra obstical on a dificult path. Some people thrive on the challenge. But some teachers are not equipped to deal with it.

 

Well put. That's what is it all about, they are teachers and not counsellors. As my teacher told me in my last retreat: karma is what determines the ultimate success. Sorry if I sound blunt and dogmatic, please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to offend anyone. I am only being objective. Life was never meant to be easy.

Edited August 15, 2009 by durkhrod chogori