What the Self Is (and Is Not)

[Sunya]

Marble, there is no such thing as real science. What was real for science 100 years ago is completely different today. what science claims is 'real' constantly changes.. so don't be so sure.

 

a materialistic Taoist, lol that's a first.

 

what the 5 senses give you is only a rough representation of reality. you must have learned in high school science class how there are so many different layers that we do not see or hear. the spectrum of light is huge, same with sound. so microwaves don't exist because you can't see or hear them? sure science can measure them but thats a recent thing. did science discover microwaves? dude who cares about science lol, just meditate.

let the scientists catch up to your own findings through personal experience, instead of letting them feed you what they think is true or false

[JustARandomPanda]

Interesting discussion. I have no answers. Just many questions.

 

It occurred to me about 4 weeks or so ago I and everyone else here have long experience with a sort of mini-formless-jhana. And all without needing to meditate or become enlightened or whatnot.

 

I am of course talking about deep sleep. Those times when we do not have dreams nor any kind of sensate awareness of any sort - not even as much as a vegetable.

 

In an odd way I see it as mirroring this discussion. I think it's why some ancient philosophers and theologians called sleep the 'little death'.

 

Odd...I enter into this formless, non-dual, unbounded state every night - no years of insight meditation needed. In fact...I only know it exists precisely because I wake. But when I'm actually in it it's as if all that I've called and believed to be my "Self" has suddenly been deleted.

 

 

Shades of Hermes Trismegistus...As above, so below....

 

 

I've been pondering this for quite a while now.

 

It's as if I'm some sentient A.I. computer program who has suddenly decided to turn around and look at itself. And all it sees is just lines of code...and where there is no code...there is no A.I.

 

 

If I actually end up experiencing that all I thought was 'ME' is nothing more than just a bunch of 'computer code' (metaphorically speaking) that doesn't exist when it's not running...

 

*blink blink*

 

wow. Just wow.

 

 

Must go think...

 

or not...

 

In such a state...even simply 'Being' - and the Tao - doesn't have the same meaning for me it once did.

Edited August 15, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Vajrahridaya]

I am reassured by my senses, thank you. Your last sentence is an abortion of the truth. Actually, more at a miscarriage. The vibrations are so close together so that it presents itself as a solid and that's all that matters.

 

All that matters to your 5 senses, but really we have found that most of the universe is dark matter and that even the seeming space of which constitutes your perceived solid object is really just empty space and they keep finding subtler and subtler dimensions in this space, of which I've heard recently but I don't remember exactly what I was told. The deeper science goes, the more it shows it doesn't know. Theories keep changing...

 

They have found more electromagnetic activity in places of reported hauntings actually. I don't remember the exact details but I have a friend who follows this science and there is more to it than you currently know about.

 

Sure, schizophrenics... but that's just subconscious projectioning. There is also joint experienced subconscious projectioning which reveals that we can connect and communicate on levels beyond the 5 senses. Your so sure of the reality of your 5 senses, that's a little scary. As if your level of perception and current knowledge of it was the end all be all way the only way that things could be. That psychologists who call something they don't understand schitzophrenia, which has different definitions as unique as the people diagnosed with it, doesn't give me much faith in your ability to think outside of the box.

 

Ah! Your first sentence is a truth!!! Note my repudiation above to your second sentence. You are wrong in sentence three. A cats senses are such that they allow a cat to function efficiently in physical reality.

 

Sure, but they experience it differently. Cats even at times seem to chase things that we don't see. I just find that you are limiting yourself way too much. Science really is not a source of absolute truths but it verifies certain relativities that may repeat.

 

I have no need for a cat's senses as I have no need to catch a mouse and eat it. Indeed, all species evolve so that they can function most efficiently in the physical world. Evolution did the human species a naughty by evolving a function capable of imagining things that do not and cannot exist.

 

Just because it doesn't exist through the 5 senses, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, is all I'm saying. Because to think so sure is a limiting way to think about the universe.

 

Well, I guess I appear to be delusional to you.

 

It's ok, I still think myself as delusional at times as well. I think that most people are delusional, and many times I'm just looking in the mirror. So don't take it personally. Me and my girlfriend have conversations like this all the time.

 

I never suggested that science is the new absolute truth. But I'll tell you what. I will put more faith in my own observation and analysis than I would ever put into the idea of the existence of ghosts.

 

Oh sure, until it becomes part of your observation that start co-relating with physically verifiable truths. Like kids who remembered past lives with startling clarity at an age before they could even talk then when they learned how to talk and express the information and even named the previous parents and then they corroborated the information with physically verifiable facts to the point where there was no other rational explanation except that this kid really did remember his past life as for a real example a WW2 fighter pilot and remembered the airplane and his past name and everything. Later only to forget, but not before the information was recorded and verified. I'm sorry to break the news to you, but there is more to reality than is perceived through the limits of your experience, conditioned knowledge and perception, as well as what is perceived through physical science and the instruments and math of physics.

 

I could show you where you can read some of these stories of the kids remembering past lives.

 

So if the Buddhists have such immaculate powerswhile in this state of omniscience why is it that none have ever presented any solid information that would help the world be a better place. All I hear is that they suggest that we pretend that it doesn't really exist so don't worry about it.

 

Why do you keep coming up with this mis-understanding of Buddhist teaching, like its hard-lined in your brain, when it's been explained to you by so many Buddhists that we don't think that the universe doesn't really exist. Of course the Buddhists have given information as to how to make the world a better place, but it works individually and each individual has to make it work for themselves. We don't think the universe doesn't exist, we just feel that every experience dependently originates so is impermanent in the way it appears right now, so it's not absolute. Haven't we been through this? Why do people hold onto mistaken interpretations that have been proven to be mistaken? It's as if, after a certain time, it's impossible to learn new things, like you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Ah, habit patterns, the hardest things to over-come. Oh well, I forgive you.

 

The 8-fold noble path is a very good place to start.

 

Wisdom constitutes;

 

1. Right View

2. Right Intention

 

Ethical Conduct constitutes;

 

3. Right Speech

4. Right Action

5. Right Livelihood

 

Mental Development constitutes;

 

6. Right Effort

7. Right Mindfulness

8. Right Concentration

 

Explained in full here...

Eightfold Noble Path link of explanation

 

If you read the explanations in the site, you will see that the Buddha indeed did give helpful information, but the majority of people aren't even interested in making a better world.

 

 

 

Please! Please! Show me a mind that is still functioning after the brain has been removed from the body. The mind CANNOT transcend the brain! That is a fact! There is no mind without a brain.

 

Mind cannot be found, even when your brain is functioning, unless your equating mind with the electric currents flashing through the synaptic patterns? A mind-stream that is disembodied can only be communicated with by a mind that has been trained to open that capacity. I wish I could remember all the places online that talk about this stuff with much more scientific information than I can bring to the table right now, but oh well.

 

So what was your point about man making machines that can detect things that a human's senses are incapable of detecting?

 

I'm saying that you can't see atoms and quarks, and dark matter, but we make machines that we can see through that help us to see these activities.

 

You are not going to tell me now that you are capable of seeing neutrinos while you are in deep meditation, are you?

 

Be well!

 

I doubt that I see neutrons.

[Marblehead]

Hi Dwai,

 

Said like an abject materialist. But despite it all, you cannot for once prove that I am wrong. Like I disclaimed earlier, The Self is beyond reason. It is noumenon, which cannot be captured by reason.

 

Well, I warned y'all early on that I am a Nietzschian Taoist. No one is capable of proving that something does not exist. The closest one can come is to say that there has never been a verified occurance. I have no intention of trying to prove you wrong. My only intention is to disagree with you whenever you say something that is contrary to Taoist philosophy as I understand it. (And who knows how wrong I might be?)

 

And I claim that Tao IS The Self.

 

I have never accepted the concept of universal consciousness and I have no intention to start now. You may claim anything you wish but if there is no proof of your claim then all you are doing is pissing in the wind.

 

Are you one of those Taoists who don't believe that Chi is Energy but is "Bio-mechanical alignment" or some baloney like that?

 

Nope. I strongly believe that Chi is the energy of the universe. Yin and Yang are its polarities. I also believe that we each have our own personal Chi (energy) and that universal Chi effects the polarity of our personal Chi and our personal Chi effects universal Chi as it passes through us. I also hold to the concept of what I call "life force" which is a component of our personal Chi while we are biologically alive.

 

Empirical evidence works in this field too. You only have to meditate. Hundreds of thousands before us have meditated and come to the realization that There Is A Self, but is not the limited entity that each of us are.

 

I do meditate but I have never realized a me that is separate from me. Your suggestion of an independant Self is no different from the Christian concept of a soul being taken out of limbo and being planted in a body when it is born.

 

Why do you Cultivate Chi? The ultimate goal of Chi Cultivation is to Realize Tao. No one can sit and speculate intellectually and realize Tao or go seeking Tao in measurements. That doesn't mean that Tao doesn't exist or if it does it is only an epistemological existence. Tao exists, period. Tao cannot be described because by describing it, you are limiting it within the boundaries of a categorical framework.

 

Who said I cultivate Chi? I never said I do that. I have never said I cultivate anything except my flowers in my front yard.

 

So you have become the Master of Chi cultivation for the purpose of attaining Tao? WoW! I am truely impressed!

 

We never limit Tao through anything we do. To describe Tao only show how misguided one is.

 

I do get to agree with you though. Yes. Tao exists. (And so do you and so do I.)

 

Taoists did Chi Cultivation and meditation to gleam insights into something that is beyond perception and conception. That's why TTC says "Tao that can be spoken is not the real Tao".

 

So are you suggesting that I shut up and meditate? Or should I cultivate? Maybe I'll masturbate.

 

The same is true for Yogic meditations as well.

 

I guess it's good I'm not a Yoga either.

 

The "Laws of Nature" are defied at will by Taoists and Yogis who know how to harness their Chi.

 

WHAT????? NO ONE can defy the laws of nature. But then, if one does not understand the laws of nature they may become delusional and "think" they are defying nature.

 

Science is very limited in what it can understand. And this limitation it puts on itself. With it's insistence on Objectivity. When we are dealing with Non-duality, there CAN BE NO Subject or Object. It is simply Subject, that's all.

 

Well darn. I can't honestly disagree with this. (But don't take that as being a weakness on my part. That would be being delusional.)

 

Be well!

[Vajrahridaya]

Interesting discussion. I have no answers. Just many questions.

 

It occurred to me about 4 weeks or so ago I and everyone else here have long experience with a sort of mini-formless-jhana. And all without needing to meditate or become enlightened or whatnot.

 

I am of course talking about deep sleep. Those times when we do not have dreams nor any kind of sensate awareness of any sort - not even as much as a vegetable.

 

Yes, that's the unconscious mind, and basically its the jhana of nothingness without actually consciously trying to make the effort to go there, which is why in Buddhist Jhana, the state of infinite space and infinite consciousness happens before you experience the state of nothingness, because when you go there through cultivation you are consciously illuminating the unconscious mind by absorbing the conscious mind usually pouring through the 5 senses and doubling it back onto itself, going subtler than the brain level consciousness.

 

In an odd way I see it as mirroring this discussion. I think it's why some ancient philosophers and theologians called sleep the 'little death'.

 

Sure, but you experience the formless jhana without consciousness, one doesn't really get anything out of it except of course the much needed rest. One doesn't get into the deep psychological causes for conscious and subconscious habit patterns which are enlodged in the formless states of consciousness in your unconscious mind unless you cultivate consciousness there. For an enlightened being, there is no more subconscious and unconsciousness, it's all lit up for that being through cultivation of subtleifying consciousness deeper than mere 5 sense and brain activity.

 

Odd...I enter into this formless, non-dual, unbounded state every night - no years of insight meditation needed. In fact...I only know it exists precisely because I wake. But when I'm actually in it it's as if all that I've called and believed to be my "Self" has suddenly been deleted.

Shades of Hermes Trismegistus...As above, so below....

I've been pondering this for quite a while now.

 

True, but that's just the unconscious mind, that's common, of course to contemplate the ramifications of that as you are doing is uncommon. But to cultivate conscious experience of it through meditation is yogic. As you start to really illumine your unconscious, that's when you start having past life memories flood your conscious experience and all sorts of things happen, knots in your body untie, tensions in your organs dissolve, or some tensions come up and pains come up to intensify then dissolve.

It's as if I'm some sentient A.I. computer program who has suddenly decided to turn around and look at itself. And all it sees is just lines of code...and where there is no code...there is no A.I.

If I actually end up experiencing that all I thought was 'ME' is nothing more than just a bunch of 'computer code' (metaphorically speaking) that doesn't exist when it's not running...

 

*blink blink*

 

wow. Just wow.

Must go think...

 

or not...

 

In such a state...even simply 'Being' - and the Tao - doesn't have the same meaning for me it once did.

 

Your making progress. We have to loose ourself or loose what we once conditioned ourself to be, to truly find out what we really are beyond all these limitations. In this sense the practice of Chittamatra meditation on the delayering of consciousness through various states of focus, through the different stages of jhana would be good.

 

Good wishes to ya!

Edited August 15, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

Hi SereneBlue,

 

I am rarely conscious of any dreaming when I sleep. I think that this is a good sign.

 

It is said that:

 

The Pure Man sleeps without dreams and wakes without worries.

 

Be well!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Dwai,

 

You still haven't fully answered my question.

 

Why do you try to find the Self when you claim that all is already the Self? A play of consciousness, the infinite, or whatever? As a manifestation of this "Self," wouldn't you always be that which is?

 

Why are you meditating?

 

 

Must go think...

 

or not...

 

In such a state...even simply 'Being' - and the Tao - doesn't have the same meaning for me it once did.[/b

 

I presume people experience this and think,

 

"Wow! Non-duality! There is no 'me'! But just an infinite consciousness!"

 

I personally believe that people who come to this realization are the ones who have suffered through much insecurities throughout their lives (one of the main reasons why they do spiritual seeking) and stumbling upon this state of consciousness, interpret it as something ever present and accepting. They go into a passive "let whatever be whatever" mode. Psychologically, I picture them going back into their mother's womb. .

 

It's a very attractive thought one can get caught up in, because many people today suffer from rejection and sense of loss. The idea of giving up and convincing oneself that it is the Truth, is not the Way. Wu wei is the effortless fruition of Virtue, not lazy observation.

 

Have you seen the movie, "Brother Sun, Sister Moon?" I love that movie. Yes, it's theistic, but it's a great move regardless and if one just see's it for what it is... so inspiring. It's a movie by Franco Zeffirelli about St. Francis of Assisi? Zeffirelli also did the 60's Romeo and Juliet and also, Endless Love, now mostly does set designs for Operas at the Metropolitan Opera House in NY and I suppose other big Opera houses. I've seen one of his backdrops for an Opera at the Met, very beautiful.

 

Hmm..I haven't,

 

But thanks for the rec. .

Edited August 15, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

O.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

O.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Sunya]

Hi SereneBlue,

 

I am rarely conscious of any dreaming when I sleep. I think that this is a good sign.

 

It is said that:

 

The Pure Man sleeps without dreams and wakes without worries.

 

Be well!

 

 

this means that eventually once karmic habits are uprooted, the dualistic mind stops fantasizing and there are no longer dreams. but by dreams, this means fantasies. as Namkhai Norbu teaches there are different kinds of dreams. karmic dreams from past lives, random worrying of the present,and dreams of clarity which include visions and insights. Dreams of clarity still occur. being unconscious during sleep is not a good thing. a pure man is conscious of all states including deep sleep.

 

I strongly believe that Chi is the energy of the universe. Yin and Yang are its polarities. I also believe that we each have our own personal Chi (energy) and that universal Chi effects the polarity of our personal Chi and our personal Chi effects universal Chi as it passes through us. I also hold to the concept of what I call "life force" which is a component of our personal Chi while we are biologically alive.

 

careful... you're going against Science...

 

I do meditate but I have never realized a me that is separate from me.

 

try meditating on no-me

 

can you actually find the 'me' ?

Edited August 15, 2009 by mikaelz

[Marblehead]

Hi Again,

 

All that matters to your 5 senses, but really we have found that most of the universe is dark matter and that even the seeming space of which constitutes your perceived solid object is really just empty space and they keep finding subtler and subtler dimensions in this space, of which I've heard recently but I don't remember exactly what I was told. The deeper science goes, the more it shows it doesn't know. Theories keep changing...

 

Actually, the commonly accepted proportions of the universe at this point in time are:

 

Dark Energy - 74%

Dark Matter - 22 %

Observable Matter - 4%

 

In Taoist philosophy Observable Matter equals the Manifest; Dark Matter equals Mystery; Dark Energy equals Chi. Empty space exists only outside the bounds of this manifest universe. But if there are multiple universes even that statement is probable incorrect.

 

Yes, it is a given that the more we learn the more we realize how little we know. Taoism addressed this by suggesting that we should know when to stop.

 

Of course theories keep changing. That is why they are still theories. When our understanding stops changing we make laws or declare facts.

 

They have found more electromagnetic activity in places of reported hauntings actually. I don't remember the exact details but I have a friend who follows this science and there is more to it than you currently know about.

 

That is poppy-cock and has been discredited many times over. But people still believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts.

 

BTW That is not called science. It is either pseudo-science or science fiction.

 

Sure, schizophrenics... but that's just subconscious projectioning. There is also joint experienced subconscious projectioning which reveals that we can connect and communicate on levels beyond the 5 senses. Your so sure of the reality of your 5 senses, that's a little scary. As if your level of perception and current knowledge of it was the end all be all way the only way that things could be. That psychologists who call something they don't understand schitzophrenia, which has different definitions as unique as the people diagnosed with it, doesn't give me much faith in your ability to think outside of the box.

 

Joint experienced subconscious projectioning. I just had to say that. What a beautiful concept.

 

But Taoism teaches me that I am to observe, understand the processes, then live my life as close as possible so that I do not attempt to do things that are undoable.

 

I have NEVER suggested that my understanding is the only way. I have NEVER suggested that I am even correct. All I have suggested is that what I have said is my understanding at this point in time. Two minutes from now I may change my mind.

 

Oh? So you are now suggesting that psychologists don't understand what they are doing? How brazen of you.

 

What do psychologists have to do with whether or not I am capable of thinking outside the box? What box?

 

Sure, but they experience it differently. Cats even at times seem to chase things that we don't see. I just find that you are limiting yourself way too much. Science really is not a source of absolute truths but it verifies certain relativities that may repeat.

 

So you would agree that it is good that I have the senses I have and a cat has the senses it has? Why do you keep telling me I am limiting myself? Because I don't say Yes, Yes, Yes to everything you say? Maybe I just don't agree with what you have said.

 

There is no absolute truth Vajrahridaya.

 

Just because it doesn't exist through the 5 senses, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, is all I'm saying. Because to think so sure is a limiting way to think about the universe.

 

I agree with your first sentence. But then you go and put limits on me again. Leave my freaking limits alone. They are mine. You play with your own limits. Okay? I am absolutely sure of nothing. I reserve the right to change my mind without prior notice.

 

It's ok, I still think myself as delusional at times as well. I think that most people are delusional, and many times I'm just looking in the mirror. So don't take it personally. Me and my girlfriend have conversations like this all the time.

 

I take nothing we say in these types of discussions personally. Oh, I will never deny that delusion is part of my reality. But it is such a beautiful reality so I will never give it up.

 

Oh sure, until it becomes part of your observation that start co-relating with physically verifiable truths. Like kids who remembered past lives with startling clarity at an age before they could even talk then when they learned how to talk and express the information and even named the previous parents and then they corroborated the information with physically verifiable facts to the point where there was no other rational explanation except that this kid really did remember his past life as for a real example a WW2 fighter pilot and remembered the airplane and his past name and everything. Later only to forget, but not before the information was recorded and verified. I'm sorry to break the news to you, but there is more to reality than is perceived through the limits of your experience, conditioned knowledge and perception, as well as what is perceived through physical science and the instruments and math of physics.

 

More poppy-cock. Every scientific investigation of prior life claims has been discredited. Not one has ever held up to investigation. If you have one please present it.

 

Wow! There you go telling me you know more about me than I know of myself. You are quite the wonder child!!!

 

I have no conditioned knowledge. I threw that stuff away a long time ago. And the only conditions on my perception are the physical limits imposed by nature.

 

I could show you where you can read some of these stories of the kids remembering past lives.

Why do you keep coming up with this mis-understanding of Buddhist teaching, like its hard-lined in your brain, when it's been explained to you by so many Buddhists that we don't think that the universe doesn't really exist. Of course the Buddhists have given information as to how to make the world a better place, but it works individually and each individual has to make it work for themselves. We don't think the universe doesn't exist, we just feel that every experience dependently originates so is impermanent in the way it appears right now, so it's not absolute. Haven't we been through this? Why do people hold onto mistaken interpretations that have been proven to be mistaken? It's as if, after a certain time, it's impossible to learn new things, like you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Ah, habit patterns, the hardest things to over-come. Oh well, I forgive you.

 

Please don't show me that stuff. I read enough fairy tales when I was a little kid and I read Greek mythology when I was a teenager.

 

I have nothing hard-lined in my brain. I am disagreeing with you because you are presenting Buddhism as the only true way. It's not, you know. Neither is Taoism. But I will argue in favor of Taoism because I am a Taoist and you will argue in favor of Buddhism because you are a Buddhist. The fact that we disagree doesn't make either of us right or wrong. When it is all over and done we may have to just agree to disagree and move on but I see you are almost as hard-headed as I am so this might go on for eons.

 

I will intentionally sometimes say things solely for the purpose of putting you on the defensive. I never have to take the defensive position unless I want to for discussions sake because I have nothing to prove to anyone.

 

If you read the explanations in the site, you will see that the Buddha indeed did give helpful information, but the majority of people aren't even interested in making a better world.

 

I didn't go to the site. I will take your word on that.

 

Mind cannot be found, even when your brain is functioning, unless your equating mind with the electric currents flashing through the synaptic patterns? A mind-stream that is disembodied can only be communicated with by a mind that has been trained to open that capacity. I wish I could remember all the places online that talk about this stuff with much more scientific information than I can bring to the table right now, but oh well.

 

Please don't waste your time finding links for me to read. I probably wouldn't read them anyhow unless it truely was a good scientific research or investigation. I probably wouldn't believe something that so and so said unless there were proof given to support what was said. Other peoples opinions are just that. I too have my opinions.

 

I'm saying that you can't see atoms and quarks, and dark matter, but we make machines that we can see through that help us to see these activities.

 

That's my man! Hang in there with me.

 

I doubt that I see neutrons.

 

I thought I saw a neutrino once but I was just delusional.

 

And I have been wrong before too. About twenty-three years ago I thought I had made a mistake but I was wrong - I hadn't.

 

Be well!

[xabir2005]

Then by your logic, if there is no self, there can be no realization, because who realizes but the Self

 

QUOTE

Guru Padmasambhava

 

http://www.fodian.net/World/zzgse.html

 

21.

 

Although there exist great many different fruits that do not agree among themselves,

the nature of the mind that is inherent awareness is (none other than) the spontaneously perfected Trikaya.

What is realized and the one who realizes it are not two (different things).

When you look for the fruit and for the one who has realized it,

since you have searched for the realizer (of the fruit) and have not found him anywhere,

at that time your fruit is exhausted and overthrown.

Thus, even though it is an end to your fruition, still this is the beginning with respect to yourself.

Both the fruition and the one who has attained the realization are found to not exist anywhere.

Without its falling under the power of attachments or aversions or of hopes and fears,

your immediate present awareness becomes spontaneously perfected inherent clarity.

Understand that within yourself the Trikaya is fully manifest.

(Therefore) this itself is the fruition of primordial Buddhahood.

 

QUOTE

Diamond Sutra:

 

"Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, 'I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.'?"

 

"No, lord. There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, 'I am enlightened' he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha."

 

Subhuti then said, "Most Honored One! You have said that I, Subhuti, excel amongst thy disciples in knowing the bliss of Enlightenment, in being perfectly content in seclusion, and in being free from all passions. Yet I do not say to myself that I am so, for if I ever thought of myself as such then it would not be true that I escaped ego delusion. I know that in truth there is no Subhuti and therefore Subhuti abides nowhere, that he neither knows nor does he not know bliss, and that he is neither free from nor enslaved by his passions."

 

QUOTE

Venerable Buddhaghosa:

 

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found

The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:

Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,

The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen."

 

QUOTE

Daniel Ingram:

 

So who is it that awakens? It is all of this transience which awakens,

though for a more mystical, thorough and seemingly ridiculous answer

take a look at No-self vs. True Self in Part III.

[Marblehead]

this means that eventually once karmic habits are uprooted, the dualistic mind stops fantasizing and there are no longer dreams. but by dreams, this means fantasies. as Namkhai Norbu teaches there are different kinds of dreams. karmic dreams from past lives, random worrying of the present,and dreams of clarity which include visions and insights. Dreams of clarity still occur. being unconscious during sleep is not a good thing. a pure man is conscious of all states including deep sleep.

 

I cannot speak to what you have said as I do not have knowledge in that area.

 

I can share this with you though:

 

The True Man of ancient times slept without dreaming and woke without care; he ate without savoring and his breath came from deep inside. The True Man breathes with his heels; the mass of men breathe with their throats. Crushed and bound down, they gasp out their words as though they were retching. Deep in their passions and desires, they are shallow in the workings of Heaven.

 

Chuang Tzu, Burton Watson translation.

 

careful... you're going against Science...

 

Only the last item regarding 'life force'. I made that up and it works for me. The rest has been scientifically established although not using the concepts I have stated.

 

try meditating on no-me

can you actually find the 'me' ?

 

I don't meditate with intent. I meditate only to empty my mind.

 

Be well!

[Sunya]

I cannot speak to what you have said as I do not have knowledge in that area.

 

I can share this with you though:

 

The True Man of ancient times slept without dreaming and woke without care; he ate without savoring and his breath came from deep inside. The True Man breathes with his heels; the mass of men breathe with their throats. Crushed and bound down, they gasp out their words as though they were retching. Deep in their passions and desires, they are shallow in the workings of Heaven.

 

Chuang Tzu, Burton Watson translation.

 

yes and I told you what sleeping without dreaming means. you can't take that literally, just like you can't take breathing with heels literally, but more about breathing in energy through the feet to fill the body

 

 

Only the last item regarding 'life force'. I made that up and it works for me. The rest has been scientifically established although not using the concepts I have stated.

 

you have equated dark energy with chi and dark matter with Tao?

what scientist agrees with you? you are only assuming that science agrees with you.

 

science is all about the objective reality through repeatability. unfortunately an ultimate truth cannot come through only objective examination because this ignores the subjective experience. this also reduces (see reductionism) everything to chemicals. according to materialistic science, there is no such thing as happiness. happiness is just a chemical reaction in the brain. same with memory, and thought. reductionism is an outdated philosophy where you reduce everything to the most elementary aspect. so if you take a historical event instead of analyzing the philosophical, psychologicla, historical, and sociological aspects of that event. it's merely chemicals bouncing around, or even smaller, atoms. actually with quantum physics its hard to be a reductionist because on a quantum level there is only potentiality.

 

secondly, science has the assumption that truth is based on reason and the 5 senses. how do you measure something objectively that is beyond the physical spectrum? nowadays, thankfully, the more theoretical scientists like physicists who created the M-theory (which is a reformulation of quantum theory) that posits 11 dimensions. it is impossible to even say what the other dimensions are anymore as its impossible to describe the 3rd dimension to a 2nd dimension being like am amoeba. also quantum physicists are now more interested in the subjective experience because of experiments that posit that the 'observer' actually changes the results in experiments. so this multi-dimensional theory is much more open as it allows for basically anything to happen because on a quantum level there is only potentiality, and time and space are only aspects of the 3rd dimension which do not exist in relatively higher dimensions.

 

 

so when i refer to science here, i'm referring to the backwards science that hasn't yet embraced quantum physics. backwards science that sticks to reductionist and materialistic philosophies from the 1930s. pseudo intellectuals still grasp this backwards science, and i really think you should move on, Marble.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't meditate with intent. I meditate only to empty my mind.

 

 

those two statements completely contradict each other.

 

you have a lot of belief, a lot of views. Tao is this, Tao is that. that doesn't exist, mind is that. I am this. so many ideas, so many views. these views tarnish your experience because you do not have an open mind. You're basically driving around with shit covering your windshield.

 

If you truly want to empty the mind, you gotta get rid of these assumptions and views you hold. I know it can be scary to be open minded because this means facing the infinite and unknown. the unknown is scary. its easier to hold onto fixed views and pretend you have all the answers.

Edited August 15, 2009 by mikaelz

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi SereneBlue,

 

I am rarely conscious of any dreaming when I sleep. I think that this is a good sign.

 

It is said that:

 

The Pure Man sleeps without dreams and wakes without worries.

 

Be well!

 

This is not considered a high state necessarily. If you are falling into an unconscious blackness, then that's just falling into what is called the material essence or Prakriti, or the fundamental ignorance.

 

No, if you are having pure visions, or if your just experiencing a conscious illumination that is total bliss and you are aware of your bodies deep relaxation and the energy flowing through your body and everything pumping, but no dreams, just total relaxation in a very deep way, that is good. But an unconscious *stupor is not a good sign.

 

*A state of reduced or suspended sensibility.

[Vajrahridaya]

'Marblehead'

 

That is poppy-cock and has been discredited many times over. But people still believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts.

 

Yeah, I don't know what some subjective science has said, about other subjective science.

 

I know that my body can be used as a reader.

 

 

Oh? So you are now suggesting that psychologists don't understand what they are doing? How brazen of you.

 

Yeah, many times they don't know what they are talking about because they don't have meditative experience and they are bound by the common man experience and thus perceiving and thus interpreting. If neuroscience is pretty confused and just starting to get some steam. Science is largely ignorant of what yogi's directly know about. There have been many studies on yogic power for many years and it's quantum leaping the science of mind, brain, and body. Including that yogi from the 1930's or 20's? who was able to take thin swords through his body, I saw the video and pull them out and he would heal it, like he actually was able to manipulate the particles in his body through the power of his mind. Scientists were baffled, but it was a real occurrence. Also neuroscience studies done on Buddhist yogi brain waves during meditations is teaching science some things.

 

What do psychologists have to do with whether or not I am capable of thinking outside the box? What box?

So you would agree that it is good that I have the senses I have and a cat has the senses it has? Why do you keep telling me I am limiting myself? Because I don't say Yes, Yes, Yes to everything you say? Maybe I just don't agree with what you have said.

 

We are limited by the body, but not as limited as you think we are. That's just my subjective opinion, as I don't really know you or your many sides and complexities.

 

 

More poppy-cock. Every scientific investigation of prior life claims has been discredited. Not one has ever held up to investigation. If you have one please present it.

 

That's poppy-cock that they have all been discredited. They have only been subjectively de-based by throwing out a bunch of possible reasons why it couldn't be true. Then people make up their own mind what to believe.

 

Here's one...

 

http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/8856/...-fighter-pilot/

 

 

 

I have nothing hard-lined in my brain. I am disagreeing with you because you are presenting Buddhism as the only true way. It's not, you know. Neither is Taoism. But I will argue in favor of Taoism because I am a Taoist and you will argue in favor of Buddhism because you are a Buddhist.

 

I don't think Buddhism is the only way. I think that the realization of dependent origination/emptiness is the only way and the recognition of the 4 noble truths, in whatever language you want to speak it. It just seems that Buddhism is the only spiritual tradition that correctly reveals the way things work. Taoism, more and more that I see and it is revealed to me, might for some as it depends upon how these concepts are related to experientially from within. But taoism seems to come to many of the same conclusions about how the cosmos works, so maybe Taoism does too, not necessarily your form of Taoism. But, Taoism in general is making a better impression on me as of late.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

yes and I told you what sleeping without dreaming means. you can't take that literally, just like you can't take breathing with heels literally, but more about breathing in energy through the feet to fill the body

you have equated dark energy with chi and dark matter with Tao?

what scientist agrees with you? you are only assuming that science agrees with you.

 

And I don't accept your interpretation regarding dreaming. Therefore I disagreed with you.

 

The entire concept of 'whole body breathing' came from that one sentence above.

 

No, I said Dark Matter with Mystery.

 

Every scientist who accepts the current understanding regarding the amount of the three components of the universe agrees with me. I have only used labels that, I am sure, none of them use.

 

But to be totally honest, it really doesn't matter if anyone agrees with me or not. I believe in my reality and that's all that matters. Nothing else matters.

 

science is all about the objective reality through repeatability. unfortunately an ultimate truth cannot come through only objective examination because this ignores the subjective experience. this also reduces (see reductionism) everything to chemicals. according to materialistic science, there is no such thing as happiness. happiness is just a chemical reaction in the brain. same with memory, and thought. reductionism is an outdated philosophy where you reduce everything to the most elementary aspect. so if you take a historical event instead of analyzing the philosophical, psychologicla, historical, and sociological aspects of that event. it's merely chemicals bouncing around, or even smaller, atoms. actually with quantum physics its hard to be a reductionist because on a quantum level there is only potentiality.

 

Well, I am happy so I guess I have broken their rules. Oh well. And thier chemicals can bounce around all they like as long as they don't come close to me because I don't want to be contaminated.

 

secondly, science has the assumption that truth is based on reason and the 5 senses. how do you measure something objectively that is beyond the physical spectrum? nowadays, thankfully, the more theoretical scientists like physicists who created the M-theory (which is a reformulation of quantum theory) that posits 11 dimensions. it is impossible to even say what the other dimensions are anymore as its impossible to describe the 3rd dimension to a 2nd dimension being like am amoeba. also quantum physicists are now more interested in the subjective experience because of experiments that posit that the 'observer' actually changes the results in experiments. so this multi-dimensional theory is much more open as it allows for basically anything to happen because on a quantum level there is only potentiality, and time and space are only aspects of the 3rd dimension which do not exist in relatively higher dimensions.

 

I do not accept the string theory hypothesis (yes, it is still only a hypothesis - it is not a theory yet because there is no possible way to test it).

 

so when i refer to science here, i'm referring to the backwards science that hasn't yet embraced quantum physics. backwards science that sticks to reductionist and materialistic philosophies from the 1930s. pseudo intellectuals still grasp this backwards science, and i really think you should move on, Marble.

those two statements completely contradict each other.

 

Quantum physics is poppy-cock. They take things apart and throw away the pieces until there is nothing left and then say "See! The universe doesn't exist." What rubbish!

 

you have a lot of belief, a lot of views. Tao is this, Tao is that. that doesn't exist, mind is that. I am this. so many ideas, so many views. these views tarnish your experience because you do not have an open mind. You're basically driving around with shit covering your windshield.

 

Ah! But it is you with all the questions. I have no questions. I have found what I was looking for. "... shit covering your windshield..." How vulgar! Now you are telling me that you are the all-seeing prophet of the world? You know what is in my mind and you know that I am wrong? You know nothing of me except the words I have typed on this keyboard.

 

If you truly want to empty the mind, you gotta get rid of these assumptions and views you hold. I know it can be scary to be open minded because this means facing the infinite and unknown. the unknown is scary. its easier to hold onto fixed views and pretend you have all the answers.

 

Yep. While on my initial search I read some Buddhist text and said to myself, "There is so much wrong here." so I emptied my mind of it. That is why I am so ignorant of Buddhist philosophy.

 

I have been in the unknown more times than you could ever imagine.

 

The only answers I have are the ones that work for me. I share my understanding with others and if they benefit its good, if no one benefits that's good too.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, many times they don't know what they are talking about because they don't have meditative experience and they are bound by the common man experience and thus perceiving and thus interpreting. If neuroscience is pretty confused and just starting to get some steam. Science is largely ignorant of what yogi's directly know about. There have been many studies on yogic power for many years and it's quantum leaping the science of mind, brain, and body. Including that yogi from the 1930's or 20's? who was able to take thin swords through his body, I saw the video and pull them out and he would heal it, like he actually was able to manipulate the particles in his body through the power of his mind. Scientists were baffled, but it was a real occurrence. Also neuroscience studies done on Buddhist yogi brain waves during meditations is teaching science some things.

 

Gee. You should become one. You could earn lots of money.

 

We are limited by the body ... . That's just my subjective opinion, as I don't really know you or your many sides and complexities.

 

This is one of the more intelligent comments you have made in the past twenty-four hours. My compliments.

 

Then people make up their own mind what to believe.

 

WoW! Another wonderfully intelligent statement.

 

I don't think Buddhism is the only way. But, Taoism in general is making a better impression on me as of late.

 

That's great! Seriously. We should always remain open-minded and flexible. Bend with the winds so we don't get blown over.

 

There are some translations of the TCC where the translator, for whatever the reason, used the word "weak" abundantly. (Christian background?) The proper word for what they were describing is "flexible". There is a world of difference between the two words and a ton of negative connotations attached to the word "weak".

 

Be well!

[Magitek]

Edited August 15, 2009 by Magitek

[Marblehead]

Hi Folks,

 

I am going to mellow out in this thread.

 

I have made a post in the "Who is the Lord/God..." thread regarding Taoism. I will do most of my posting in this thread for a while.

 

Be well!

Edited August 15, 2009 by Marblehead

[JustARandomPanda]

.....

Edited August 16, 2009 by SereneBlue

[xabir2005]

It also mentions Good Star (Gautama Buddhas son) mastering all the sutras yet falling into an endless hell (with no hope of release) in the Zen Teachings of Bodhidarma (trans. by Red Pine).

Just a correction: Good Star is not Gautama Buddha's son. Buddha's only son, Rahula, is one of his top ten disciples, and is a liberated Arhant. Edited August 15, 2009 by xabir2005

[Magitek]

Thanks for that. I no longer have the book so cannot check. Maybe I misread though, any way you cleared it up.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Magitek

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I believe in my reality and that's all that matters. Nothing else matters.

 

My... how objective of you... (slight tone of sarcasm noted)

The only answers I have are the ones that work for me. I share my understanding with others and if they benefit its good, if no one benefits that's good too.

 

How does no one benefiting equate with good? If no one benefits that's basically a signification of it not being good.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

Quantum physics is poppy-cock. They take things apart and throw away the pieces until there is nothing left and then say "See! The universe doesn't exist." What rubbish!

 

no... lol..nobody is saying the universe doesn't exist. you keep saying that, you say that about Buddhism and you say that about quantum physics, when nobody is saying that the universe doesn't exist. is this some fear of yours? non-existence?

 

quantum physics and M-theory (modern string theory or membrane theory) are agreed upon largely by the scientific community, though its a theory and it will remain that way because theres no way to measure other dimensions. it is all based on math.

 

you should probably think twice about doubting quantum theory since its the closest science has ever come to embracing a view similar to Taoism.