What the Self Is (and Is Not)

[Marblehead]

Cognito ergo sum- Decarte coined that one I think...

 

But...there would be a self without the body in my experience...

 

several here have had out of body experiences that deny the body/mind construct as non- dispersable...

 

also,

too much thinking can do real harm in some folks' minds....let go of all this banter and LIVE!!!

just go out side and do somethiong vigorous and healthy-

love to all-Pat

 

Yeah, "I think ..." has been used so often I think it is public domain now.

 

Yes, I know that there are many people who believe they have had OBEs and there are many who believe that the mind continues to exist after the body dies and I am at odds with all of them.

 

Okay. I just got a phone call so I have to get dressed and live away from the computer for a while.

 

Be well!

Edited August 17, 2009 by Marblehead

[xabir2005]

By that logic it means that Xabir is not the same Xabir he was before he posted this comment. And he is not the same Xabir that will be every moment because time is the effect of causality. So Xabir is actually infinite discrete particles that progresses (for whatever reason) through time as a result of cause and effect.

In fact, there potentially as many Xabirs as the seconds (assuming we consider it the smallest unit of time measurement) of his "life" thus far. That is in complete logical contradiction with "the Xabir who is born, who is learning Buddhism and posting about it's virtues". That Xabir(unreal) is actually a sentient being that is going to live out the duration of his life and then either become extinct or be reborn.

 

Shankara's argument says that momentary causality is insufficient to explain that Xabir(unreal). In order to make this seem logically congruent, the Buddhists introduced Alaya Vijnana (or the infinite mindstream) that is the glue which times the countless Xabirs together into a single "sentient being".

 

Also, to explain the experience of Oneness with all creation in the Non-dual state, they posited that there are infinite mindstreams (just like Xabir's which are dependently originated and are svabhava shunya, or empty of self-nature). But Non-dual experience means Singularity (non-dual, not-two, single). So logically, infinite mind-streams are an impossibility, unless they are actually components of one single super-mindstream.

 

To claim that there are an "infinite non-dual mindstreams" is self-contradictory. Multiplicity of mindstreams indicates lack of singularity (or non-duality).

You're right. There is no xabir. There is no entity that is born, dies, etc, as Zen Master Dogen says in that act of birth there is just that act of birth, and in the act of death there is just that act of death, there is not a permanent self that is born, persists in life and then dies -- hence ultimately no birth and no death. There is simply momentary 'selves' which is thus, not really a 'self' but simply momentary arising of consciousness that has a form of continuity not in terms of a permanent entity, but continuity due to causal relations. This itself explains how there can be continuity without recoursing into an atman theory. Edited August 17, 2009 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Genjo Koan: Actualizing the Fundamental Point

 

by Eihei Dogen

 

As all things are buddha-dharma, there is delusion and realization, practice, and birth and death, and there are buddhas and sentient beings.

 

As the myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death.

 

The buddha way is, basically, leaping clear of the many and the one; thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and buddhas.

 

Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread.

To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening.

Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings. Further, there are those who continue realizing beyond realization, who are in delusion throughout delusion.

 

When buddhas are truly buddhas they do not necessarily notice that they are buddhas. However, they are actualized buddhas, who go on actualizing buddhas.

 

When you see forms or hear sounds fully engaging body-and-mind, you grasp things directly. Unlike things and their reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, when one side is illumined the other side is dark.

 

To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.

 

When you first seek dharma, you imagine you are far away from its environs. But dharma is already correctly transmitted; you are immediately your original self. When you ride in a boat and watch the shore, you might assume that the shore is moving. But when you keep your eyes closely on the boat, you can see that the boat moves. Similarly, if you examine myriad things with a confused body and mind you might suppose that your mind and nature are permanent. When you practice intimately and return to where you are, it will be clear that nothing at all has unchanging self.

 

Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death.

 

This being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.

 

Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.

 

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.

 

Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky.

 

The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long of short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

 

When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing.

 

For example, when you sail out in a boat to the middle of an ocean where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular, and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round or square; its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only look circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this.

 

Though there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. In order to learn the nature of the myriad things, you must know that although they may look round or square, the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety; whole worlds are there. It is so not only around you, but also directly beneath your feet, or in a drop of water.

 

A fish swims in the ocean, and no matter how far it swims there is no end to the water. A bird flies in the sky, and no matter how far it flies there is no end to the air. However, the fish and the bird have never left their elements. When their activity is large their field is large. When their need is small their field is small. Thus, each of them totally covers its full range, and each of them totally experiences its realm. If the bird leaves the air it will die at once. If the fish leaves the water it will die at once.

 

Know that water is life and air is life. The bird is life and the fish is life. Life must be the bird and life must be the fish.

 

It is possible to illustrate this with more analogies. Practice, enlightenment, and people are like this.

 

Now if a bird or a fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place. When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find you way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point; for the place, the way, is neither large nor small, neither yours nor others'. The place, the way, has not carried over from the past and it is not merely arising now.

 

Accordingly, in the practice-enlightenment of the buddha way, meeting one thing is mastering it--doing one practice is practicing completely. Here is the place; here the way unfolds. The boundary of realization is not distinct, for the realization comes forth simultaneously with the mastery of buddha-dharma.

 

Do not suppose that what you realize becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your consciousness. Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. Its appearance is beyond your knowledge. Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. When, then, do you fan yourself?"

 

"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."

 

"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.

 

The actualization of the buddha-dharma, the vital path of its correct transmission, is like this. If you say that you do not need to fan yourself because the nature of wind is permanent and you can have wind without fanning, you will understand neither permanence nor the nature of wind. The nature of wind is permanent; because of that, the wind of the buddha's house brings forth the gold of the earth and makes fragrant the cream of the long river.

[Wayfarer64]

Genjo Koan: Actualizing the Fundamental Point

 

by Eihei Dogen

 

As all things are buddha-dharma, there is delusion and realization, practice, and birth and death, and there are buddhas and sentient beings.

 

As the myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death.

 

The buddha way is, basically, leaping clear of the many and the one; thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and buddhas.

 

Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread.

To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening.

Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings. Further, there are those who continue realizing beyond realization, who are in delusion throughout delusion.

 

When buddhas are truly buddhas they do not necessarily notice that they are buddhas. However, they are actualized buddhas, who go on actualizing buddhas.

 

When you see forms or hear sounds fully engaging body-and-mind, you grasp things directly. Unlike things and their reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, when one side is illumined the other side is dark.

 

To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.

 

When you first seek dharma, you imagine you are far away from its environs. But dharma is already correctly transmitted; you are immediately your original self. When you ride in a boat and watch the shore, you might assume that the shore is moving. But when you keep your eyes closely on the boat, you can see that the boat moves. Similarly, if you examine myriad things with a confused body and mind you might suppose that your mind and nature are permanent. When you practice intimately and return to where you are, it will be clear that nothing at all has unchanging self.

 

Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death.

 

This being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.

 

Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.

 

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.

 

Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky.

 

The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long of short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

 

When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing.

 

For example, when you sail out in a boat to the middle of an ocean where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular, and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round or square; its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only look circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this.

 

Though there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. In order to learn the nature of the myriad things, you must know that although they may look round or square, the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety; whole worlds are there. It is so not only around you, but also directly beneath your feet, or in a drop of water.

 

A fish swims in the ocean, and no matter how far it swims there is no end to the water. A bird flies in the sky, and no matter how far it flies there is no end to the air. However, the fish and the bird have never left their elements. When their activity is large their field is large. When their need is small their field is small. Thus, each of them totally covers its full range, and each of them totally experiences its realm. If the bird leaves the air it will die at once. If the fish leaves the water it will die at once.

 

Know that water is life and air is life. The bird is life and the fish is life. Life must be the bird and life must be the fish.

 

It is possible to illustrate this with more analogies. Practice, enlightenment, and people are like this.

 

Now if a bird or a fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place. When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find you way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point; for the place, the way, is neither large nor small, neither yours nor others'. The place, the way, has not carried over from the past and it is not merely arising now.

 

Accordingly, in the practice-enlightenment of the buddha way, meeting one thing is mastering it--doing one practice is practicing completely. Here is the place; here the way unfolds. The boundary of realization is not distinct, for the realization comes forth simultaneously with the mastery of buddha-dharma.

 

Do not suppose that what you realize becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your consciousness. Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. Its appearance is beyond your knowledge. Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. When, then, do you fan yourself?"

 

"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."

 

"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.

 

The actualization of the buddha-dharma, the vital path of its correct transmission, is like this. If you say that you do not need to fan yourself because the nature of wind is permanent and you can have wind without fanning, you will understand neither permanence nor the nature of wind. The nature of wind is permanent; because of that, the wind of the buddha's house brings forth the gold of the earth and makes fragrant the cream of the long river.

 

 

do you really see things that way or are you just parroting this stuff?

[xabir2005]

do you really see things that way or are you just parroting this stuff?

In short, I know exactly what non-dual and no-self is by experience and have many profound and intense experiences and glimpses of such, however I do not have any permanent shifts due to deep non-dual insights like a couple of my dharma teachers and friends did.

 

Also, I would recommend even those who do not have any experiences at all, to still learn these teachings. Not to parrot them but the importance of right views is crucial according to Buddha in developing insights, along with practice.

Edited August 17, 2009 by xabir2005

[Lucky7Strikes]

Also, to explain the experience of Oneness with all creation in the Non-dual state, they posited that there are infinite mindstreams (just like Xabir's which are dependently originated and are svabhava shunya, or empty of self-nature). But Non-dual experience means Singularity (non-dual, not-two, single). So logically, infinite mind-streams are an impossibility, unless they are actually components of one single super-mindstream.

 

To claim that there are an "infinite non-dual mindstreams" is self-contradictory. Multiplicity of mindstreams indicates lack of singularity (or non-duality).

 

Non-dual of Hindu tradition and Buddhist tradition seem to differ. Experience of Oneness doesn't even seem to be the ultimate Buddhist enlightenment. Not one, not two. Just relative.

 

And according to your philosophy, no one can reach a non-dual state by his own will. Because there is no one to begin with .

 

Just a thought here,

 

The continuity of mindstream is the seeming continuity of existence through time. Existence is consciousness. Consciousness is experience.

 

States of consciousness happen according to intent. And this is manifested by causes and conditions of what experience brings. The many intentions that are entangled within existence is in the form of habit energies. Various forms of clinging, attachment, delusions all arise from an endless history of ignorant views creating momentary states of consciousness. Therefore intentions and consciousness go through a cyclical pattern from creation to destruction. From Oneness to Two and so forth.

 

Oneness is nothing more than a state. It is not the Self. It also does not continue for eternity and it never was "how it already is." There is no background.

 

No states of consciousness is eternal or stands on its own because intentions arise dependent on the various causes and conditions it reflects. Intentless intent is still intent just as viewless view is still a view. No experience can occur without intentions materializing.

 

Moreover, intent (or View) is clinging. And clinging, identifying, having a motive are all inseparable characteristic of existence. One cannot ever let all clingings and motives go as they say so often since it is the very nature of being. So there is this continuity of ever changing intentions rising, falling, and going through various stages of being all without a center. They may be seem permanent, just like the the notion of "I" in our daily lives, as all experiences rise within it.

 

However, due to dependence and the ever fluctuating nature of phoenomena, all views, states, and identifications, will come to an end (except for the perfectly enlightened mind).

 

This is why you have to turn the mirror around, smash it. But most importantly,

 

You must go into the marketplace! .

Edited August 17, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[dwai]

[dwai]

Non-dual of Hindu tradition and Buddhist tradition seem to differ. Experience of Oneness doesn't even seem to be the ultimate Buddhist enlightenment. Not one, not two. Just relative.

 

And according to your philosophy, no one can reach a non-dual state by his own will. Because there is no one to begin with .

 

Just a thought here,

 

The continuity of mindstream is the seeming continuity of existence through time. Existence is consciousness. Consciousness is experience.

 

States of consciousness happen according to intent. And this is manifested by causes and conditions of what experience brings. The many intentions that are entangled within existence is in the form of habit energies. Various forms of clinging, attachment, delusions all arise from an endless history of ignorant views creating momentary states of consciousness. Therefore intentions and consciousness go through a cyclical pattern from creation to destruction. From Oneness to Two and so forth.

 

Oneness is nothing more than a state. It is not the Self. It also does not continue for eternity and it never was "how it already is." There is no background.

 

No states of consciousness is eternal or stands on its own because intentions arise dependent on the various causes and conditions it reflects. Intentless intent is still intent just as viewless view is still a view. No experience can occur without intentions materializing.

 

Moreover, intent (or View) is clinging. And clinging, identifying, having a motive are all inseparable characteristic of existence. One cannot ever let all clingings and motives go as they say so often since it is the very nature of being. So there is this continuity of ever changing intentions rising, falling, and going through various stages of being all without a center. They may be seem permanent, just like the the notion of "I" in our daily lives, as all experiences rise within it.

 

However, due to dependence and the ever fluctuating nature of phoenomena, all views, states, and identifications, will come to an end (except for the perfectly enlightened mind).

 

This is why you have to turn the mirror around, smash it. But most importantly,

 

You must go into the marketplace! .

 

You do realize that how illogical that entire blurb sounded right?

However, due to dependence and the ever fluctuating nature of phoenomena, all views, states, and identifications, will come to an end (except for the perfectly enlightened mind).

 

If all views, states and identifications will come to an end, the mind is a phenomenon too, so it too must logically come to an end. So, by your definition, Nirvana is the extinction of Consciousness.

 

I am already in the marketplace. Only that I am my own mirror. And yeah...I do smash it every time I meditate

[Vajrahridaya]

By that logic it means that Xabir is not the same Xabir he was before he posted this comment. And he is not the same Xabir that will be every moment because time is the effect of causality. So Xabir is actually infinite discrete particles that progresses (for whatever reason) through time as a result of cause and effect.

Yup, held together by a grasping at the self by the particles. Held together by the delusion of self identity ascribed to these particles by these particles.

 

In fact, there potentially as many Xabirs as the seconds (assuming we consider it the smallest unit of time measurement) of his "life" thus far. That is in complete logical contradiction with "the Xabir who is born, who is learning Buddhism and posting about it's virtues". That Xabir(unreal) is actually a sentient being that is going to live out the duration of his life and then either become extinct or be reborn.

 

It's all relative and held together by the craving for self existence by this conglomeration of connected entities.

Shankara's argument says that momentary causality is insufficient to explain that Xabir(unreal). In order to make this seem logically congruent, the Buddhists introduced Alaya Vijnana (or the infinite mindstream) that is the glue which times the countless Xabirs together into a single "sentient being".

The Buddhists didn't come up with this, of course you'll ignore my argument because it just completely subverts yours on a level that you can't handle and thus you get pissed off because it makes you feel insecure. Alaya Vijnana does not inherently exist, it is merely the craving for existence which happens on a very subtle, subtle level all the way into the formless realm of experience, deep in the unconscious mind. It's been explained, but your mind can't seem to make the leap to think from an entirely different paradigm. Because you identify with these entities that come together as a Brahmin self that thinks there is a Self of all and basing it on experience which is really not the fault of the experience but how it's interpreted. It's your attachment and identification that's in the way from objective viewing. The Alaya Vijnana is only new at around the 300's AD. explained by Asanga, but it's not new in it's revelation as it can be found alluded to in the Pali texts as Michaelz pointed out.

 

Also, to explain the experience of Oneness with all creation in the Non-dual state, they posited that there are infinite mindstreams (just like Xabir's which are dependently originated and are svabhava shunya, or empty of self-nature). But Non-dual experience means Singularity (non-dual, not-two, single). So logically, infinite mind-streams are an impossibility, unless they are actually components of one single super-mindstream.

The experience of oneness is not a substantial oneness, that all things are one, just that all things are equally empty and the consciousness expands past all things and permeates on a level beyond Samsaric recognition, it's not a dimension of merging into an already established Self. It's basically just seeing the inherent empty nature of all things and experiences. This has been explained to you, but you don't listen. This is what Buddhism means by Non-Dual and it's not the same as Vedanta's all is one substance Non-Dual system of interpretation of experience.

To claim that there are an "infinite non-dual mindstreams" is self-contradictory. Multiplicity of mindstreams indicates lack of singularity (or non-duality).

 

 

Yes, they lack substantial singularity, but they are all equally empty of inherent existence, thus non-substantial non-dual experience is possible only when all things are seen through by the consciousness that see's past the Alaya Vijnana and ceases to identify it as a Self by seeing that it's dependently originated.

 

I'm pretty sure you won't understand a thing I've said, and you might not even read it because you might have me blocked.

 

 

 

Also, the Upanishads, also refer to Atman as the Svabhava, Jivaka, Prana, etc. I guess it boils down to what someone would like to see (categorical framework and one's attachment to it).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature

 

You keep quoting commentary that completely mis-understands the meaning of the scripture and the intent of the scripture. Of course you'll choose these interpretations because they fit your bias, even though they go against the entire Buddhist Cannon.

 

Oh well... Most people are destined to recycle for a very long time because of this clinging to existence through the notion of a self, just turned from individual to universal, still a conceit and a source of pride and attachment.

[Lucky7Strikes]

 

You do realize that how illogical that entire blurb sounded right?

If all views, states and identifications will come to an end, the mind is a phenomenon too, so it too must logically come to an end. So, by your definition, Nirvana is the extinction of Consciousness.

 

I am already in the marketplace. Only that I am my own mirror. And yeah...I do smash it every time I meditate

Read through the context of how the word "end" is used. It's to note impermanence. Didn't you read the "except the enlightened mind" part? It was right in the quote. Context is very important when we talk about these things with borrowed words never meant to be used in such discussions.

 

Intent, experience, perception, consciousness, identity, dependency...meditate on these words and see what they point to. I'd be glad to discuss whatever disagreements you have regarding anything I wrote. If you don't understand, please ask for clarification. It's ok to ask.

 

Oh you're already in the market place? You've smashed the mirror? HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

I hope you weren't serious. Will you drop your bag of candies to show me what Zen is? Walk out with shoes on your head?

 

You need a beating!!!

Edited August 18, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Vajrahridaya]

 

You do realize that how illogical that entire blurb sounded right?

If all views, states and identifications will come to an end, the mind is a phenomenon too, so it too must logically come to an end. So, by your definition, Nirvana is the extinction of Consciousness.

 

 

It only sounds illogical to you because you don't understand the line of reasoning, you can't follow it because your attached to your own, that you can't make the leap into an objective way of viewing.

 

Also... Nirvana if one does not see the Mahayana path would seem to end in an extinction of consciousness as the Hinayana interpretation seems to gather. But, in actuality because of the offering of merits and turning your past Samsaric connections since beginningless time into Nirvanic connections of endless time, one's consciousness does not extinct but in fact continues, moment by moment based on recognizing the always continuous empty nature of all things, consciousness and experiences. In that sense, one's self is eternal, only in as much as it originates dependent upon the realization of the fact that all things are inherently empty, so turns Samsaric connections into connections for everlasting Nirvana.

[JustARandomPanda]

And now...just to toss a monkey wrench into the thread I give you this debate from the avid Materialist Logic-oriented Skeptic Michael Shermer v. Deepak Chopra (whom appears to be arguing from a Vedantin viewpoint). Too bad a Buddhist and a Taoist weren't included in the discussion too.

 

I suspect Marblehead would enjoy it. Lots of good points to ponder.

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

p.s. Just found this website and loved the name so much I had to share. DIYDharma.org!

Edited August 18, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Vajrahridaya]

And now...just to toss a monkey wrench into the thread I give you this debate from the avid Materialist Logic-oriented Skeptic Michael Shermer v. Deepak Chopra (whom appears to be arguing from a Vedantin viewpoint). Too bad a Buddhist and a Taoist weren't included in the discussion too.

 

I suspect Marblehead would enjoy it. Lots of good points to ponder.

Cheers!

p.s. Just found this website and loved the name so much I had to share. DIYDharma.org!

 

Skeptics base their logic on a lack of in depth experience based upon a lack of serious and devoted practice to meditation, contemplation and insight (vipassana).

 

So, I can't ever take them seriously. They think we don't know for sure, but that's because they base their logic on the idea that only the appearance of death can show what's after death, when our logic shows that we can see through life right here and now while living. This means that we don't have to die to know about what's beyond this dimension of experience, because we transcend this dimension of experience even while we appear to be as normal as the next person and seemingly bound by it when in fact, we are not.

 

Skeptics basically base their experience on a lack of experience. Of course being skeptical can be a good thing, if applied to the cause of being skeptical, as in be skeptical about your skepticism and it's basis for consideration. The basis in this case being the lack of beyond 5 sense dimension experience.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

[xabir2005]

Edited August 18, 2009 by xabir2005

[Vajrahridaya]

Perfect! Even the Dalai Lama doesn't agree that all spiritual traditions are leading to the same goal. He believes as I've read that all traditions lead to higher rebirth if practiced correctly. Of course all spiritual traditions lead to the same goal if one wants to see that they all lead their adherents to the realization of Buddhism eventually, even after countless eons and rebirths!

 

So, yes in that context they all do lead to the same Truth...

 

The Dalai Lama is deeply studied in every single turning of the wheel from the Nikaya, to the Mahayana, to the Vajrayana, to the Dzogchen, which is his main practice.

 

So is Namdrol.

 

My main sutra teacher.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[nac]

Great.

 

Here's an article I'd written a long time back on the topic Science, Scientific method and it's limitations:

 

The Battle between Science and Yoga

I'll read it later.

 

Precisely my point (and Shankara's) -- Alaya Vijnana is Atman.

No, the "Atman" is Alaya Vijnana. Like Sankaracharya, I'm using an assignment operator, not equality, only the other way around. That is, "Self" is a misnomer Hindu philosophers use for the Alaya. There's no "glue" involved.

 

But you just agreed with Shankara

No I didn't. The Zen school follows HuaYan metaphysics, in which the Alaya Vijnana is indistinguishable from the Tathagathagarbha, which means it's perfectly interpenetrated. If I'm not mistaken, it's neither the "same", nor "different" for all sentient beings. It's "just so".

 

But it is mysterious. It is beyond percepts and concepts (even if we do have to name it for the sake of convenience, just as Taoists name Tao). It is non-phenomenal because it is eternal, infinite and non-dual. You do agree that Alaya Vijnana is eternal right?

Saying that it's eternal doesn't really mean anything, especially since -it- (whatever you call the Alaya Vijnana) must die one day. That's like saying "waves are eternal", plain idealism. When the universe ends, mathematics will have nothing to be applied on, so it will come to an end too. The idea of "all things" is an imaginary concept to begin with. Still, this sort of thing has been said before about the Alaya Vijnana. It's even been called the "one mind" and "sacred mind".

 

BTW, there is complete compatibility between Evolution and Shankara's thoughts. Because Evolution is the lower Truth realm, the realm of the material universe. All non-dual systems posit that Consciousness is the source and matter simply a creation/projection/superimposition on Consciousness (depending on which system it is). So if Non-duality is the Higher Truth, then it is beyond the laws of nature (as we know it in the general and scientific sense).

Do you know what w00 means?

 

They are all mules that carry you up to the summit of the same mountain. My issue was with some friends here arguing that Buddhism is better or the best way and that it teaches something completely and diametrically opposed to what Vedanta or Taoism teach.

Zen teaches not-self too. There is no dwai or nac or any true "persons" here, only phenomena arising from the interpenetrated Tathagathagarbha. What passes for our minds are fallible phenomena without any solid core. The Alaya shouldn't be called our "true self", and it's not a term used to refer to a pantheistic higher soul either. Once again, the concept of "everything in existence" is an imaginary notion which shouldn't be generalized or covered under an umbrella term.

 

Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism are "categorical frameworks" too, you know. In fact, analysis of any kind is only possible on the basis of categorical frameworks. BTW what do you mean by "infinite"?

Edited August 18, 2009 by nac

[Sunya]

[xabir2005]

Edited August 18, 2009 by xabir2005

[dwai]

I'll read it later.

No, the "Atman" is Alaya Vijnana. Like Sankaracharya, I'm using an assignment operator, not equality, only the other way around. That is, "Self" is a misnomer Hindu philosophers use for the Alaya. There's no "glue" involved.

No I didn't. The Zen school follows HuaYan metaphysics, in which the Alaya Vijnana is indistinguishable from the Tathagathagarbha, which means it's perfectly interpenetrated. If I'm not mistaken, it's neither the "same", nor "different" for all sentient beings. It's "just so".

Saying that it's eternal doesn't really mean anything, especially since -it- (whatever you call the Alaya Vijnana) must die one day. That's like saying "waves are eternal", plain idealism. When the universe ends, mathematics will have nothing to be applied on, so it will come to an end too. The idea of "all things" is an imaginary concept to begin with. Still, this sort of thing has been said before about the Alaya Vijnana. It's even been called the "one mind" and "sacred mind".

Do you know what w00 means?

Zen teaches not-self too. There is no dwai or nac or any true "persons" here, only phenomena arising from the interpenetrated Tathagathagarbha. What passes for our minds are fallible phenomena without any solid core. The Alaya shouldn't be called our "true self", and it's not a term used to refer to a pantheistic higher soul either. Once again, the concept of "everything in existence" is an imaginary notion which shouldn't be generalized or covered under an umbrella term.

 

Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism are "categorical frameworks" too, you know. In fact, analysis of any kind is only possible on the basis of categorical frameworks. BTW what do you mean by "infinite"?

 

 

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, then it must be one...

 

I guess at this point this has become a contest of two perspectives. They are both looking at the same thing from different vantage points.

 

I have always insisted that Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, (all isms and ity's) are categorical frameworks. To experience the Ultimate Truth, they have to be discarded. The entire debate was around some people denying that these categorical frameworks are based on/deal with the same thing (Absolute Reality which is noumenon).

 

There might not be a "real" dwai or a "real Nac" but there IS a "Real Tathagatagarbha". Vedantins call it Atman/Brahman. Taoists call it Te/Tao. Buddhists call it Tathagatagarbha.

 

To dogmatically insist that only one view is the best view or correct view is wrong...

[xabir2005]

Edited August 18, 2009 by xabir2005

[dwai]

[Marblehead]

This is a Buddhist thread. Taoists beware!!!!

 

Be well!

[nac]

I guess at this point this has become a contest of two perspectives. They are both looking at the same thing from different vantage points.

More or less, yeah. If I ever turn into a hopeless idealist, I'll happily embrace Hinduism or Taoism.

 

I have always insisted that Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, (all isms and ity's) are categorical frameworks. To experience the Ultimate Truth, they have to be discarded. The entire debate was around some people denying that these categorical frameworks are based on/deal with the same thing (Absolute Reality which is noumenon).

When did I say there is such a thing as Absolute Reality? How can you call something Absolute Reality when there's nothing real to grasp? The Tathagathagarbha is neither a suffused substratum, an idealistic totality, nor a pantheistic consciousness. Buddhism is the only school of Eastern spirituality I've seen which utterly rejects holistic idealism.

 

There might not be a "real" dwai or a "real Nac" but there IS a "Real Tathagatagarbha". Vedantins call it Atman/Brahman. Taoists call it Te/Tao. Buddhists call it Tathagatagarbha.

How did that happen? Tathagathagarbha is real? Not from my point of view. Then again, I'm not an expert in philosophy or theology. I'm a Computer Science engineer too! (At least I will be when I get my certificate, which should be any month now. We're like the Simpsons caricature Apu, an Indian with a Computer Science degree)

 

To dogmatically insist that only one view is the best view or correct view is wrong...

I hope that's not what I wasn't doing...

 

PS. Oh yeah, expect a more detailed response later. cya

Edited August 18, 2009 by nac

[xabir2005]

Edited August 18, 2009 by xabir2005