What the Self Is (and Is Not)

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

...

Edited August 22, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Marblehead]

Hey, I found this in my email with no name on it- anyone know who

it could belong to?

Dear ____________,

 

We wish to congratulate you on the success of your application to the Buddhist dharma. Initially, we

were to admit you to the 'Intermediate Beginning Apprentice Buddhist', but must instead admit

you to the 'Junior Woodchuck Beginning Apprentice Buddhist'. Apparently you forgot to pay attention

to the Bodhisattva vow, and wish to attain enlightenment purely for yourself, but that will not be

held against you, as it is a common beginner's mistake. Congratulations!

 

Unfortunately, we were unable to reify you as a sentient, corporeal being, and as such, you will have

to remain an abstract concept, although we will reify you to the extent that you exist in cyberspace. All is not lost, you may begin the reification process anew when the council meets again in three years. In the meantime, don't forget to meditate!

 

Sincerely,

 

Admissions Committee, & Committee on Reification Procedures,

Buddhist Abode of the Eternal Tao

 

.

 

That is so beautiful!!!! And funny too!!!

 

Too bad though that you could not be immediately reified.

 

May your journey be filled with confusion.

 

Be well!

 

 

Hi Vajrahridaya,

 

Just remember, I made a peace offering above and you laughed at it and threw it in the trash.

 

Don't expect too much from me now.

 

Be well!

[rene]

Xabir - thanks for the links and references; most appreciated.

[Vajrahridaya]

Now see. You keep telling me what I am doing. I am doing nothing. I have not reified anything. I have not reified Tao. I had absolutely nothing to do with it. It already existed before I was born.

 

Everything around me exists because of cause and effect. I am the result of cause and effect. Yes, there are some things I cause to happen. I can even take parts and make a whole. (A chair in a box containing many pieces that need be put together when you get it home. Until you have put it together you do not have a chair, you have parts.)

 

Yes, the only things I can see are those things I can see. I know, you have this wonderful ability to see ghosts. I'm not knocking your ability. I am knocking your delusion.

 

So you keep talking about what I do but you have never specified what you do. You knock others' understandings but all you do is quote from some ancient mystical document.

 

You did say you have a mother. I saw that somewhere recently. Did your mother actually have any children? I mean the real kind? Like one who had a toy as a child and the child said, "That is mine!"

 

I know you enjoy sitting up there in the clouds and watching the silliness of we mortals but don't you really, every now and then, wish to come down to earth and play with us?

 

Be well!

Good try but totally unacceptable, in my opinion.

 

I quote:

 

If this attachment is to be cut through in the most rapid and effective way, the mind's spontaneous capacity to self-liberate must be brought into play. The term self-liberation should not, however, be taken as implying that there is some 'self' or ego there to be liberated. It is a fundamental assumption...at the Dzogchen level, that all phenomena are void of self-nature.

 

This is so illogical it is actually funny. (From this Taoist's perspective.)

 

Be well!

 

Hi SereneBlue,

 

Don't worry; Be happy!

 

You are real for the moment. Get up and dance!

 

Be well!

 

It's pointless talking to people's who's mind's bend in your way.

 

 

 

Hi Vajrahridaya,

 

Just remember, I made a peace offering above and you laughed at it and threw it in the trash.

 

Don't expect too much from me now.

 

Be well!

 

I don't expect much from you. But, your projections arise from an unexperienced mind, and fall flat on the door step of a steep stair case you have yet to climb, much less open the door to.

 

This is the truth.

 

I have said what I do, many times in many threads, but I guess you never read those posts.

 

So be the best old Taoist you can be.

 

Take care.

[Marblehead]

It's pointless talking to people's who's mind's bend in your way.

I don't expect much from you. But, your projections arise from an unexperienced mind, and fall flat on the door step of a steep stair case you have yet to climb, much less open the door to.

 

This is the truth.

 

I have said what I do, many times in many threads, but I guess you never read those posts.

 

So be the best old Taoist you can be.

 

Take care.

 

You are so full of shit it is really sad. You think you know everything but you know nothing. You don't even exist, according to you, or at least your existence isn't real.

 

You are blinded by your stupidity and tunnel-visioned view of reality. You criticize anyone who does not agree with you.

 

You have no truths. They are all childish imaginations. Nothing more than what a young girl does outside playing with her make-believe fairies.

 

I have read every one of your post from the day I joined the forum and you have not made one concrete statement . All you do is quote or paraphrase the fantasies that you have been reading and expect everyone to believe them to be true.

 

And even in this post you present yourself to be knowing what is inside my mind and the fact is you know absolutely nothing about me. The only thing you have done is take my words and twist them into fashion so you can criticize my thoughts.

 

You, sir, have an ego that is totally beyond control. To call yourself a Hindu or Buddhist is a sin toward those two belief systems.

 

So you too go ahead and be the best what-ever-the-hell-it-is-you-are.

 

Be well!

[chicultivation]

Edited August 23, 2009 by chicultivation

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

You are so full of shit it is really sad. You think you know everything but you know nothing. You don't even exist, according to you, or at least your existence isn't real.

 

You are blinded by your stupidity and tunnel-visioned view of reality. You criticize anyone who does not agree with you.

 

You have no truths. They are all childish imaginations. Nothing more than what a young girl does outside playing with her make-believe fairies.

 

I have read every one of your post from the day I joined the forum and you have not made one concrete statement . All you do is quote or paraphrase the fantasies that you have been reading and expect everyone to believe them to be true.

 

And even in this post you present yourself to be knowing what is inside my mind and the fact is you know absolutely nothing about me. The only thing you have done is take my words and twist them into fashion so you can criticize my thoughts.

 

You, sir, have an ego that is totally beyond control. To call yourself a Hindu or Buddhist is a sin toward those two belief systems.

 

So you too go ahead and be the best what-ever-the-hell-it-is-you-are.

 

Be well!

 

 

Agree 100%. Maybe we should stop engaging them and not respond to any of their posts since it's like a broken record, anyway. Eventually they'll go away.

 

 

 

.

 

 

Marblehead,

 

IMO it is best not to respond to these disrespectful Buddhists (if they can be called so) who have nothing constructive to say except jump into every thread and tell others they are deluded. If there is thread on the nutrition value of Chicken soup, they will still have a Buddhist quote to prove the others wrong. When the agenda is clear, why waste time talking to them? Ignore them and the trolls will eventually go away when no one is feeding them. A lot of those who are irritated with these discussions are also irritated with those who feed the trolls. Try to ignore them and after rounds of mutual conversation amongst themselves (four of them?), sanity may return.

 

Sandra

 

 

Yessiree. They have airtight closed minds and add nothing to any discussion.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead,

 

IMO it is best not to respond to these disrespectful Buddhists (if they can be called so) who have nothing constructive to say except jump into every thread and tell others they are deluded. If there is thread on the nutrition value of Chicken soup, they will still have a Buddhist quote to prove the others wrong. When the agenda is clear, why waste time talking to them? Ignore them and the trolls will eventually go away when no one is feeding them. A lot of those who are irritated with these discussions are also irritated with those who feed the trolls. Try to ignore them and after rounds of mutual conversation amongst themselves (four of them?), sanity may return.

 

Sandra

 

Hi Sandra,

 

I know what you say is the best. I have always found it hard to just lay down when I know there is someone around who wishes to kick me.

 

Chuang Tzu taught the lesson you are speaking to. Believe it or not I actually tried to make friends with them so that there could be constructive discussions concerning the similarities between the Buddhist and Taoist belief systems. I guess they weren't ready for that. So maybe they'll reincarnate real soon.

 

I will try your suggestion. I promise.

 

Thanks and Be well!

 

 

Thanks TheSongsofDistantEarth.

 

I will try to be Mr. Nice Guy.

 

Be well!

Edited August 23, 2009 by Marblehead

[chicultivation]

Hi Sandra,

 

I know what you say is the best. I have always found it hard to just lay down when I know there is someone around who wishes to kick me.

 

Chuang Tzu taught the lesson you are speaking to. Believe it or not I actually tried to make friends with them so that there could be constructive discussions concerning the similarities between the Buddhist and Taoist belief systems. I guess they weren't ready for that. So maybe they'll reincarnate real soon.

 

I will try your suggestion. I promise.

 

Thanks and Be well!

Thanks TheSongsofDistantEarth.

 

I will try to be Mr. Nice Guy.

 

Be well!

 

Thank you for your kindness Marblehead. It is really nice to see more of Taoists following Master Venerable Master Hsuan Hua's advice on this forum than the Buddhists. This proves that Dharma and Virtue are not limited to those who call themselves Buddhists but is available to all true seekers. The discussion on this forum made me study some more Buddhists teachers to see if all Buddhists are like the four or five debating on this forum and trying to convert others to Buddhist faith, not much different from my stifling Catholic upbringing. Fortunately, my initial impression was quite untrue. I will get back to my cup of Oolong tea and Vinyasa practice

 

Blessings and regards to All,

Sandra

Edited August 23, 2009 by chicultivation

[Marblehead]

Thank you for your kindness Marblehead. It is really nice to see more of Taoists following Master Venerable Master Hsuan Hua's advice on this forum than the Buddhists. This proves that Dharma and Virtue are not limited to those who call themselves Buddhists to all true seekers. I will get back to my cup of Oolong tea

 

Blessings and regards to All,

Sandra

 

Darn. Now I have to go make myself a cup of tea.

 

Be well!

[Sunya]

Yessiree. They have airtight closed minds and add nothing to any discussion.

 

that's a joke right? you're being sarcastic right?

 

when have you ever added anything beneficial to any discussion? man you crack me up.

 

 

IMO it is best not to respond to these disrespectful Buddhists (if they can be called so) who have nothing constructive to say except jump into every thread and tell others they are deluded. If there is thread on the nutrition value of Chicken soup, they will still have a Buddhist quote to prove the others wrong. When the agenda is clear, why waste time talking to them? Ignore them and the trolls will eventually go away when no one is feeding them. A lot of those who are irritated with these discussions are also irritated with those who feed the trolls. Try to ignore them and after rounds of mutual conversation amongst themselves (four of them?), sanity may return.

- Blessings and Best Wishes to All,

Sandra

 

 

LOL who ARE you??

Virtue police over here with 6 posts.

 

You are so full of shit it is really sad. You think you know everything but you know nothing.

 

You are blinded by your stupidity and tunnel-visioned view of reality.

 

You have no truths. They are all childish imaginations. Nothing more than what a young girl does outside playing with her make-believe fairies.

 

I have read every one of your post from the day I joined the forum and you have not made one concrete statement . All you do is quote or paraphrase the fantasies that you have been reading and expect everyone to believe them to be true.

 

You, sir, have an ego that is totally beyond control.

 

Be Well!

 

 

dude.... putting "Be Well" at the end of your post doesn't stop you from looking like a jackass. just a heads up. lol

 

 

really Vajra hasn't said anything fantastical or childish at all. he's been very concrete citing Buddhist scripture and his own experiences. just because you're 80 years old and haven't had any meditative experience doesn't mean that other realms and deep experiences don't exist for others Marble. maybe you would have some experiences if you actually meditated instead of trying to have tea with strangers over the internet.

 

its really amazing how defensive people get when their beliefs are questioned, when their identity is questioned. look at you people. ganging together and hounding someone for saying something as grotesque as "Buddhist realization isn't the same as Taoist realization", if you can prove him wrong.. do it. if you can't have a philosophical debate, then don't participate. if you act dramatic thats only furthering your attachment and suffering, so chill people. if you're comfortable with your path then what others are saying shouldn't matter to you. if you act dramatic that only shows your insecurity.

Edited August 23, 2009 by mikaelz

[Lucky7Strikes]

Taoist, Buddhist...who cares? There is Truth. Explore it on your own and let all these schools and theories be guides to accelerate your progress.

 

If the Buddhists tell me the direct experience of emptiness is so and so, and its methods are so and so, and its interpretations are so and so...I will go contemplate on them as much as possible. Approach it with an absolutely open mind until it is proven wrong or unfitting to the reality that I experience. Same with the Hindu and Taoist lineages. Or even energetic practices. I'll go through the Kundalini, attain a rainbow body, or whatever and comprehend completely why these beliefs and experiences are and how they represent reality.

 

You are your own limit as to how far you want to explore the grounds covered by many who have come before. So go play, go explore, and maybe you will even discover something entirely new. But don't let the Path be mild, easy-going, all-friendly, half-assed, and peaceful. Sure, respect and tact are always good (I mentioned this to Vh earlier because for many, valuable information can be lost without the sugar coating on top), but the intensity and passion must guide you. It's easy to mistake this passion as mere religious fanaticism. This can only be seen from individual to individual as what lies behind their convictions vary. Nonetheless, the Path commends one's entire attention and effort from the true seeker.

 

So, listen! Listen with an open mind! Then question! Give your whole being into the investigation for the Truth! Isn't that why anyone here has put effort into these ancient ways?

 

.

 

Where's Dwai? I need to ask him more questions!!

Edited August 23, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Sunya]

 

So, listen! Listen with an open mind! Then question! Give your whole being into the investigation for the Truth! Isn't that why anyone here has put effort into these ancient ways?

 

 

hehe jk. this isn't obvious at all for many people, especially older people who are very much set in their ways.. like being stuck in quick sand. it's so easy and comfortable to just stay stuck and not question anymore.

 

nice post !

Edited August 23, 2009 by mikaelz

[chicultivation]

But don't let the Path be mild, easy-going, all-friendly, half-assed, and peaceful. Sure, respect and tact are always good (I mentioned this to Vh earlier because for many, valuable information can be lost without the sugar coating on top), but the intensity and passion must guide you. It's easy to mistake this passion as mere religious fanaticism. This can only be seen from individual to individual as what lies behind their convictions vary. Nonetheless, the Path commends one's entire attention and effort from the true seeker.

 

Where's Dwai? I need to ask him more questions!!

 

I just want people to know I don't particularly agree with Vajrahridaya's attitude and don't want that to reflect onto other Buddhists on this board. He's just being himself.

 

Your actions speak for themselves my friend

 

* People have sharp eyes and will see your good points. You don't need to praise yourself.

- Venerable Master Hsuan Hua

 

 

With that I leave you to continue your bashing or 'questioning' if that's how you like to describe it. I am not very comfortable speaking on forums where an eighty year old gentleman is called jackass and ridiculed because of his age. If such is your approach to openness and inquiry into truth, I choose to gently bow out of this discussion. I am reminded here of some teenagers who confuse talking filthy with being macho or something. Screaming without respect or boundaries does not always translate to being an openminded discussion or a debate. The irony here is that those who appeal to be heard never listen. It is also ironical to question others belief or conditioning when all that one sees exhibited here are more beliefs and conditioning. How is one side in a better position to question, teach, preach or inspire the other? I don't see any difference between Dwai's ignorance and Lucky7strike's enlightenment. Do you actually believe that the word passion justifies how the Buddhists have conducted themselves here? But I may be wrong and outdated in what I expect from Buddhists. But Lucky7strikes if you think you are gaining proximity to Truth by this kind of questioning which is one-sided and lacking any true compassion to listen and see, well, may be you are already a knower of the Truth. Moreover, should not one question one's own belief system and questioning first rather than another's? The first is an inquiry towards truth and the second is mere fanaticism.

Edited August 23, 2009 by chicultivation

[Sunya]

With that I leave you to continue your bashing or 'questioning' if that's how you like to describe it. The irony here is that those who appeal to be heard never listen. It is also ironical to question others belief or conditioning when all that one sees exhibited here are more beliefs and conditioning. How is one side in a better position to question, teach, preach or inspire the other? I don't see any difference between Dwai's ignorance and Lucky7strike's enlightenment. Do you actually believe that the word passion justifies how the Buddhists have conducted themselves here? But I may be wrong and outdated in what I expect from Buddhists.

 

LOL

 

WHO ARE YOU?

 

you have 7 posts on this board, and all of them have been about your disagreements with how people are acting. how about you contribute instead of criticize?

Edited August 23, 2009 by mikaelz

[xabir2005]

Dwai:

To claim that there are an "infinite non-dual mindstreams" is self-contradictory. Multiplicity of mindstreams indicates lack of singularity (or non-duality).

I noticed I missed out on this one (when Dwai wrote this twice in reply to me).

 

This is not contradictory, non-dual simply means in hearing only sounds no hearer, in seeing only scenery no seer.

 

Non-duality here means no subject-object duality, however it does not mean a monistic essence or cosmic consciousness which we share. Our mindstreams are individual, even though there are no separate experiencer apart from experience (non-dual), our experiences and karmas are still different, and there is nothing in consciousness that is ontological or having metaphysical essence -- simply processes, phenomenon, events, that is non-dual. However even though our experience manifests in the many, all of them only have one taste - the taste of Mind or luminous-emptiness inseparable, however manifesting in the many it is not a permanent singular monistic essence behind everything in which everything manifests -- but rather is all manifestations. Awareness is not a Witness but a witnessing not separate from the flow of phenomenality. Hence Buddhism is non-dual but non-monistic.

 

Anyway Thusness read through TaoBums just now and told me it will not be easy to convince you as you have gone quite far into experiencing the Self.... so I guess I'll just leave it here.

Edited August 23, 2009 by xabir2005

[Lucky7Strikes]

 

hehe jk. this isn't obvious at all for many people, especially older people who are very much set in their ways.. like being stuck in quick sand. it's so easy and comfortable to just stay stuck and not question anymore.

 

nice post !

 

HAHAHAHA!

 

Well,

 

Cliches are cliches for a reason!

[Lucky7Strikes]

With that I leave you to continue your bashing or 'questioning' if that's how you like to describe it. I am not very comfortable speaking on forums where an eighty year old gentleman is called jackass and ridiculed because of his age. If such is your approach to openness and inquiry into truth, I choose to gently bow out of this discussion. I am reminded here of some teenagers who confuse talking filthy with being macho or something. Screaming without respect or boundaries does not always translate to being an openminded discussion or a debate. The irony here is that those who appeal to be heard never listen. It is also ironical to question others belief or conditioning when all that one sees exhibited here are more beliefs and conditioning. How is one side in a better position to question, teach, preach or inspire the other? I don't see any difference between Dwai's ignorance and Lucky7strike's enlightenment. Do you actually believe that the word passion justifies how the Buddhists have conducted themselves here? But I may be wrong and outdated in what I expect from Buddhists. But Lucky7strikes if you think you are gaining proximity to Truth by this kind of questioning which is one-sided and lacking any true compassion to listen and see, well, may be you are already a knower of the Truth. Moreover, should not one question one's own belief system and questioning first rather than another's? The first is an inquiry towards truth and the second is mere fanaticism.

 

.

 

Have you read through the past 5 threads, most of the 20 pages long, between Dwai, Buddhists, Taoists?

 

If you have, I would be confused as to how you have developed this opinion. There has been no genuine malice, but everyone who has posted lengthy "articles" at the cost of their time (with abundant information) has shown true compassion. Dwai himself started this thread again!

 

This discussion comes from months back (the content is timeless) and much of it has been cordial. Respect and boundaries have their place. And so does screaming and kicking.

 

For example, in the history of Zen, Dharma duels, insults, beatings are not that uncommon. A kid lost his finger trying to immitate the roshi, one got thrown off three stories, and Huike cut off his arm in order to learn from Damo. And now walk away because of ridicule, insult, and feelings? Zen master Joshu famously calimed that he would learn from a 7 year old and preach an 80 year old if the conditions be so.

 

I am listening to Dwai! I give him my perspective of his version of the Truth. And frankly I don't think he has objectively disagreed to my understanding of his position either. No one is a master here or is preaching anything. Why do you see it that way? To question others IS to question yourself! That is what inquiry is.

 

And please contribute too! We'd love to hear what you think!

Edited August 23, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[dwai]

.

 

Have you read through the past 5 threads, most of the 20 pages long, between Dwai, Buddhists, Taoists?

 

If you have, I would be confused as to how you have developed this opinion. There has been no genuine malice, but everyone who has posted lengthy "articles" at the cost of their time (with abundant information) has shown true compassion. Dwai himself started this thread again!

 

This discussion comes from months back (the content is timeless) and much of it has been cordial. Respect and boundaries have their place. And so does screaming and kicking.

 

For example, in the history of Zen, Dharma duels, insults, beatings are not that uncommon. A kid lost his finger trying to immitate the roshi, one got thrown off three stories, and Huike cut off his arm in order to learn from Damo. And now walk away because of ridicule, insult, and feelings? Zen master Joshu famously calimed that he would learn from a 7 year old and preach an 80 year old if the conditions be so.

 

I am listening to Dwai! I give him my perspective of his version of the Truth. And frankly I don't think he has objectively disagreed to my understanding of his position either. No one is a master here or is preaching anything. Why do you see it that way? To question others IS to question yourself! That is what inquiry is.

 

And please contribute too! We'd love to hear what you think!

 

There is a huge chasm separating my understanding and your understanding of my Understanding.

You are not going beyond the concept of Subject in the Subject-Object duality when it comes to the Self. The Self that you are arguing against is the Self of Duality. The Self that I am talking about is Pure Subject...Self-aware Consciousness.

 

I have answered your questions...I would suggest you re-read my responses.

 

Best,

 

Dwai

 

I noticed I missed out on this one (when Dwai wrote this twice in reply to me).

 

This is not contradictory, non-dual simply means in hearing only sounds no hearer, in seeing only scenery no seer.

 

Non-duality here means no subject-object duality, however it does not mean a monistic essence or cosmic consciousness which we share. Our mindstreams are individual, even though there are no separate experiencer apart from experience (non-dual), our experiences and karmas are still different, and there is nothing in consciousness that is ontological or having metaphysical essence -- simply processes, phenomenon, events, that is non-dual. However even though our experience manifests in the many, all of them only have one taste - the taste of Mind or luminous-emptiness inseparable, however manifesting in the many it is not a permanent singular monistic essence behind everything in which everything manifests -- but rather is all manifestations. Awareness is not a Witness but a witnessing not separate from the flow of phenomenality. Hence Buddhism is non-dual but non-monistic.

 

Anyway Thusness read through TaoBums just now and told me it will not be easy to convince you as you have gone quite far into experiencing the Self.... so I guess I'll just leave it here.

 

No...Non-duality means No sound, no scenery, no hearer, no seer. There is no distinction between Subject and object. There is only Subject.

 

Alaya Vijnana is posited as infinite, eternal mindstreams that are interconnected like "Indra's Net" and is the store-house of all experience in the universe. That is simply (imho) back-pedaling to retrofit the concept into the Absolute Self experience. So the "Interconnectedness" or "Oneness" experience is not because of infinite mindstreams. There is only One Infinite, eternal Consciousness...which is the Absolute Self.

 

You see, you are saying the same thing I am saying. Except you are starting from B to get to A and I am starting from A to get to B.

[Wayfarer64]

[Sunya]

Dwai

No...Non-duality means No sound, no scenery, no hearer, no seer. There is no distinction between Subject and object. There is only Subject.

 

Alaya Vijnana is posited as infinite, eternal mindstreams that are interconnected like "Indra's Net" and is the store-house of all experience in the universe. That is simply (imho) back-pedaling to retrofit the concept into the Absolute Self experience. So the "Interconnectedness" or "Oneness" experience is not because of infinite mindstreams. There is only One Infinite, eternal Consciousness...which is the Absolute Self.

 

You see, you are saying the same thing I am saying. Except you are starting from B to get to A and I am starting from A to get to B.

 

this is why you fail to understand Buddhist non-dual realization. Buddhism does not collapse everything onto the Subject because the Subject is seen to be empty. Buddhism does not say that there is no subject/object split because everything is subject. that is an extreme. Buddhism says that subject and object are interdependent and connected, but that doesn't mean that they are of one eternal essence.

 

you never answered my question Dwai, if I'm hungry can you go eat for me?

Edited August 24, 2009 by mikaelz

[Lucky7Strikes]

There is a huge chasm separating my understanding and your understanding of my Understanding.

You are not going beyond the concept of Subject in the Subject-Object duality when it comes to the Self. The Self that you are arguing against is the Self of Duality. The Self that I am talking about is Pure Subject...Self-aware Consciousness.

 

I have answered your questions...I would suggest you re-read my responses.

 

Best,

 

Dwai

 

Yes, perfect non duality. Absolute determinism. No free will, no hope, no purpose, no individual, but just the soup boiling bubbles only to dissolve again.

 

No one to becomes and no one can become enlightened. All happens according to the will of the Self. Your claim on Karma and free will are contradictory. It is not free will when all is just the separating and merging of the Self. Karma too: Who creates and destroys Karma besides the Self? No one to blame for the suffering and no one to be saved from it. It's just a play of Consciousness.

 

Do I share your understanding regarding this? Or am I seeing it wrong?

Edited August 24, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[nac]

Who is ignorant if there is no Self?

Ignorance-phenomena arise with no need for a concrete Self. There are no enlightened people either, only enlightened actions.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Ignorance-phenomena arise with no need for a concrete Self. There are no enlightened people either, only enlightened actions.

 

Well,

 

People are their actions. .

[Marblehead]

Well,

 

People are their actions. .

 

Are you suggesting that if a person acts ignorantly they should be considered to be an ignorant person?

 

Be well!