dwai Posted August 24, 2009 Yes, perfect non duality. Absolute determinism. No free will, no hope, no purpose, no individual, but just the soup boiling bubbles only to dissolve again. Â No one to becomes and no one can become enlightened. All happens according to the will of the Self. Your claim on Karma and free will are contradictory. It is not free will when all is just the separating and merging of the Self. Karma too: Who creates and destroys Karma besides the Self? No one to blame for the suffering and no one to be saved from it. It's just a play of Consciousness. Â Do I share your understanding regarding this? Or am I seeing it wrong? Â That is what is Samsara my friend...a cycle of birth and re-birth. But that is at the Lower Reality level (Vyavaharika/Samvritti). Free Will too is a lower reality, as is Karma. Â Once Non-duality is realized, perhaps the Cosmic Joke can be understood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted August 24, 2009 Are you suggesting that if a person acts ignorantly they should be considered to be an ignorant person? Â Be well! Â It may just be a learning curve thing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted August 24, 2009 Ignorance-phenomena arise with no need for a concrete Self. There are no enlightened people either, only enlightened actions. Â That is logically feeble. Ignorance is a property of A Self. You cannot call a Chair ignorant or a table ignorant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted August 24, 2009 That is logically feeble. Ignorance is a property of A Self. You cannot call a Chair ignorant or a table ignorant. Â I'm sure I've used the phrase "stupid chair" - when trying to put one of those folding deck chairs together... Â Was this wrong of me? -was I actually relating to my own stupidity and "mirroring" this morbid lack of self- worth onto the poor defenseless chair?- Â Should inanimate objects be used as recepticles for our own frustrations? Â All such profundities are worthy of discourse no doubt, but where does it lead us?- Â Â I look for happy trails... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) That is logically feeble. Ignorance is a property of A Self. You cannot call a Chair ignorant or a table ignorant. Â Good! Â Ignorance is also a property of the Self, just as Samsara or "Lower" reality is a manifestation of the Self! Â Haha! The cosmic joke...if it is so it's a sick, sick joke. Â Your belief entirely contradicts any hope of salvation from the "lower reality" as it is all of an absolute entity. No effort can lead you to realize non-duality. "Realizing" non-duality is an oxymoron, as everything is aready non-dual. You can call it "merging" with the Self, but how can it be so? When the "lower reality" is also an expression of the "absolute reality?" Your ignorance arose from and is the Self, so how can "you" ever realise anything? You might, you might not, but does it matter anyway under this view? Edited August 24, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2009 I look for happy trails... Â I present you: Â Â Â Happy Trails! Â Be well! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted August 24, 2009 I present you: Â Happy Trails! Â Be well! Â Â What joyous rapture this refreshes! Â Sat. AM TV was what kids waited for 50 years ago... Â Sky King, The Lone Ranger & Tonto- Cartoons were FUNNY! Daffy Duck had a speach impediment and was not a ninja! The PC crowd has swept the dubious mind sets of yesteryear away away... It may even be looked down upon to stuff ones' horse these days... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2009 What joyous rapture this refreshes! Â Sat. AM TV was what kids waited for 50 years ago... Â Sky King, The Lone Ranger & Tonto- Cartoons were FUNNY! Daffy Duck had a speach impediment and was not a ninja! The PC crowd has swept the dubious mind sets of yesteryear away away... It may even be looked down upon to stuff ones' horse these days... Â They won't be forgotten as long as I am alive. After that I probably won't care. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted August 24, 2009 They won't be forgotten as long as I am alive. After that I probably won't care. Â Happy Trails! Â When I've had near death experiences my life flkashed before my eyes just as i heard it would- what if the whole thing was re-runs of TV shows I'd been watching? Instead of my selfs' lifes' projection I'd get the commercial ridden swill of mis-spent youth... Â Death should not be commoditized -but it remains so... step right up and get yr red-hot transcendance here - it'll only cost ya most of yr time while alive! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2009 When I've had near death experiences my life flkashed before my eyes just as i heard it would- what if the whole thing was re-runs of TV shows I'd been watching? Instead of my selfs' lifes' projection I'd get the commercial ridden swill of mis-spent youth... Â Death should not be commoditized -but it remains so... step right up and get yr red-hot transcendance here - it'll only cost ya most of yr time while alive! Â I think that any time we worry ourself about our forthcoming death we are wasting what time we do have for living. Death will take us all one day. That's a given. What happens after death is an unknown. No reason why we should concern ourself over what we cannot know. Â For now it is time to dance. One day we will be laying on the 'killin' floor'. No big thing. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 25, 2009 (edited) That is logically feeble. Ignorance is a property of A Self. You cannot call a Chair ignorant or a table ignorant. Â You can't call a person ignorant either, but a sentient being can be the source of actions based on ignorance. In that case, it's the actions that are ignorance-phenomena, not the persons. In other words, not for a moment should ignorance be thought of as the fundamental quality of any sentient being, because we all have Buddha-nature. The quality of teaching everyone around us. This is one logically correct way of looking at the situation, the Buddhist view. There are others. Â PS. This is the reason why I used to think that Buddhism is the most idealistic religion on the planet, until I encountered Advaita. Edited August 25, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2009 I have a take on ignorance I would like to share. Â But first, I must state that in my mind there is a vast difference between the words 'ignorance' and stupidity'. Â Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. There is nothing inherently 'wrong' or 'bad' with ignorance. It simply means that we have not yet learned about this 'whatever'. Ignorance can easily be cured with knowledge. Â Stupidity, on the other hand, is having the knowledge of 'right' but still doing the 'wrong' thing. Â Yes, people, each and every individual, can be either ignorant or knowledgeable; stupid or wise. All these words apply generally to only the human animal. To apply these concepts to any of the other 10,000 things is an error, I think. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 25, 2009 Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. There is nothing inherently 'wrong' or 'bad' with ignorance. It simply means that we have not yet learned about this 'whatever'. Ignorance can easily be cured with knowledge. I beg to differ. Suffering is the direct result of ignorant actions. Â Stupidity, on the other hand, is having the knowledge of 'right' but still doing the 'wrong' thing. That's your own definition. Â Yes, people, each and every individual, can be either ignorant or knowledgeable; stupid or wise. All these words apply generally to only the human animal. To apply these concepts to any of the other 10,000 things is an error, I think. Buddhism looks at ignorance as a temporary obstacle that can be overcome by personal effort no matter what point you start out from. In other words, sentient beings don't have ignorant-nature, but they do stupid things. Any being in the human realm can overcome it by training oneself, hence there are no ignorant beings or enlightened beings. Nevertheless, everyone has Buddha-nature. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2009 I beg to differ. Suffering is the direct result of ignorant actions. Â That's your own definition. (See? I can play that game too. Hehehe.) Â That's your own definition. Â Well, of course it is. When voicing my opinion I always use my own opinion. Â Buddhism looks at ignorance as a temporary obstacle that can be overcome by personal effort no matter what point you start out from. In other words, sentient beings don't have ignorant-nature, but they do stupid things. Any being in the human realm can overcome it by training oneself, hence there are no ignorant beings or enlightened beings. Nevertheless, everyone has Buddha-nature. Â That's the same thing I said except I used different words. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted August 25, 2009 I once partnered with a dog named Hector - (He died 20 years ago & I miss him as much as anyone whos died) Â ...now HE had Buddha nature! He never had me on a leash and would often try to wise me up on how to behave. He trained me very well. AND... he was also a pot-head... he'd follow a joint around a circle and get the exhales!-Then he'd try to talk. We all loved him very much. Â he was as senscient and wise as any being I have ever known - truly! Â He was my eyes and ears and ESP liar detector- If he didn't "like" someone - & I sure could tell if that were the case, I knew not to trust them... Â That was a being with great sense of self and purpose... Â - to love & be loved -period. Â I'm tearing up- love to all-Pat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2009 I have had a couple cats that were of that nature except I have never smoked pot so they never got addicted. Hehehe. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) That's your own definition. (See? I can play that game too. Hehehe.) Well, of course it is. When voicing my opinion I always use my own opinion. That's the same thing I said except I used different words. Ignorance being the cause of suffering is a definition? Anyway, yes, disagreeing over definitions never solves anything. Let's try to look beyond words at the intended meanings instead. Many of these terms are rough translations from exotic languages after all. Eg. Buddhism refers to quite specific things when it talks about "ending ignorance", "Buddha-nature", etc. This story might clarify the distinction between wisdom and intelligence in Buddhism: http://www.serve.com/cmtan/buddhism/Stories/cucumber.html  I once partnered with a dog named Hector - (He died 20 years ago & I miss him as much as anyone whos died)  ...now HE had Buddha nature! He never had me on a leash and would often try to wise me up on how to behave. He trained me very well. AND... he was also a pot-head... he'd follow a joint around a circle and get the exhales!-Then he'd try to talk. We all loved him very much.  he was as senscient and wise as any being I have ever known - truly!  He was my eyes and ears and ESP liar detector- If he didn't "like" someone - & I sure could tell if that were the case, I knew not to trust them...  That was a being with great sense of self and purpose...  - to love & be loved -period.  I'm tearing up- love to all-Pat Mu!  PS. Yeah, in the Buddhist view as I understand it, all beings and by extension all phenomena have Buddha-nature. Edited August 26, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 26, 2009 Â PS. Yeah, in the Buddhist view as I understand it, all beings and by extension all phenomena have Buddha-nature. Â Â Yeah, Yeah. I know. And we are all elements of Tao. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) Yeah, Yeah. I know. And we are all elements of Tao. Â Happy Trails! Â PS. Of course, one must not fall into the "all is One" mentality too easily. Don't forget that the Buddha primarily symbolizes the teacher of knowledge and wisdom, not life or energy. Edited August 26, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 26, 2009 Â PS. Of course, one must not fall into the "all is One" mentality too easily. Â Agreed. I have never imagined myself as being one with Hitler. Â Don't forget that the Buddha primarily symbolizes knowledge and wisdom, not life or energy. Â Actually, back twenty-five years ago when I did some reading of Buddha I admired his philosophy and his desire to educate the masses so that they would have a means of escaping their misery and suffering. Â I feel that Taoism speaks to both, knowledge and wisdom as well as life and energy. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 26, 2009 I feel that Taoism speaks to both, knowledge and wisdom as well as life and energy. Yeah, I've heard that before. Something to do with Taoism addressing both "xing" and "ming", right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 26, 2009 Yeah, I've heard that before. Something to do with Taoism addressing both "xing" and "ming", right? Â Hehehe. I better stop. I don't want to push it too hard. Remember, I am not into Taoist Alchemy. Â Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted August 27, 2009 Yeah, I've heard that before. Something to do with Taoism addressing both "xing" and "ming", right? Â Heard maybe - listened and understood maybe...but yr spelling is way off... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 27, 2009 Heard maybe - listened and understood maybe...but yr spelling is way off... I was hoping you guys would help me fill in the gaps in my understanding. Just as some people here want to live forever, I want to know everything! Â In my personal opinion, this other half of understanding mentioned by some Taoist sages (life, energy, ...) lies strictly in the domain of scientific inquiry and outside the magisterium of religion, spirituality or even purely philosophical speculation in any form. I think ancient Taoists knew this and hence developed proto-sciences like alchemy, which have been mostly superseded by modern science. Just my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) In my personal opinion, this other half of understanding mentioned by some Taoist sages (life, energy, ...) lies strictly in the domain of scientific inquiry and outside the magisterium of religion, spirituality or even purely philosophical speculation in any form. I think ancient Taoists knew this and hence developed proto-sciences like alchemy, which have been mostly superseded by modern science. Just my opinion. Â Nice observation. Â This is why I always try to define with anyone I am speaking with whether we are talking about the Manifest or the Mystery. Yes, they both emerge from the same source but they are different realizations of Tao. Â Happy Trails! Edited August 27, 2009 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
