Wayfarer64 Posted August 27, 2009 Some folks say what ya dont know can't hurt ya... I say what ya don't know can't help ya... and indeed what ya don't know CAN hurt ya... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2009 I say what ya don't know can't help ya... and indeed what ya don't know CAN hurt ya... Agreed. Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) Some folks say what ya dont know can't hurt ya... I say what ya don't know can't help ya... and indeed what ya don't know CAN hurt ya... I respectfully disagree. (That is, I don't mind if it benefits all sentient beings in the long run like the Buddha said.) Edited August 27, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) This is why I always try to define with anyone I am speaking with whether we are talking about the Manifest or the Mystery. Yes, they both emerge from the same source but they are different realizations of Tao. Buddhism has no quarrels with science. It takes a scientific approach to spirituality, but doesn't consider science in general to be an integral part of Buddhist spirituality itself. PS. Hmm, I wonder what happened to the automatic post concatenation feature? I'm sorry, lots of interruptions today. Edited August 27, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted August 27, 2009 I respectfully disagree. (That is, I don't mind if it benefits all sentient beings in the long run like the Buddha said.) What IT are you refering to?-ignorance? Is that It for ya -cause Budda "said" so? Even with yr eyes open there is little to see with yr head inthe sand... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2009 I respectfully disagree. (That is, I don't mind if it benefits all sentient beings in the long run like the Buddha said.) Wait a minute! Hehehe. What about you? What about your real physical materialistic life? Don't you care what happens to you? Don't you want to be a better, more productive person? Wouldn't you like to be an expert computer programmer so you could work for Bill Gates? (Yeah, I know he is semi-retired.) What about just you first. How about help yourself so that you have an abundance and therefore can help others? What you know can lead you there. What you don't know will prevent you from getting there. Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) What IT are you refering to?-ignorance? Is that It for ya -cause Budda "said" so? Even with yr eyes open there is little to see with yr head inthe sand... IT - if I'm not helped or I'm hurt by ending ignorance. Wait a minute! Hehehe. What about you? What about your real physical materialistic life? What about it? I'm a layman, not a monk. We form one quarter of the Fourfold Sangha. (laymen, laywomen, monks and nuns) Don't you care what happens to you? Don't you want to be a better, more productive person? Wouldn't you like to be an expert computer programmer so you could work for Bill Gates? (Yeah, I know he is semi-retired.) What about just you first. How about help yourself so that you have an abundance and therefore can help others? What you know can lead you there. What you don't know will prevent you from getting there. How can the pursuit of wisdom affect any of this? That IS the subject we were discussing, right? Ever heard of the Vimalakirti Sutra? (The Holy Teaching of Vimalakirti) It was preached by a layman. Besides, Taoists have monks too, you know. Always did as a matter of fact, Taoist recluses used to be well-known in countries neighboring China. It's the life I might choose at some point. Even with yr eyes open there is little to see with yr head inthe sand...... What you know can lead you there. What you don't know will prevent you from getting there. This only proves my point. Ignorance causes suffering, true understanding ends it. Edited August 27, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2009 What about it? I'm a layman, not a monk. We form one quarter of the Fourfold Sangha. (laymen, laywomen, monks and nuns) I don't play those games. We are all peas in a pot. How can the pursuit of wisdom affect any of this? That IS the subject we were discussing, right? Ever heard of the Vimalakirti Sutra? (The Holy Teaching of Vimalakirti) It was preached by a layman. Besides, Taoists have monks too, you know. Always did as a matter of fact, Taoist recluses used to be well-known in countries neighboring China. It's the life I might choose at some point. Wisdom destroys ignorance. Yes, there are Taoist monks but I don't have any. Nope, I don't know Vimalakirti. This only proves my point. Ignorance causes suffering, true understanding ends it. Yep, and true understanding is wisdom. We gain wisdom through knowledge and insight. Somewhere we apparently agreed to disagree but for some reason we keep agreeing. Don't know why that is. Maybe because we use different words? Oh! BTW. Money helps end some of our suffering to. Hehehe. Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) Don't worry, I'm not that naive... I don't play those games. I've been trying to quit playing that game of "not playing games". Nowadays I focus on my awareness instead. Edited August 27, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2009 Don't worry, I'm not that naive... Hehehe. I knew that. It is just that sometimes I feel the need to remind my Buddhist friends of that fact. So, anyhow. I suggest that once we find that beautiful harmony within, after we have secured our basic needs (and the needs of those who are dependant on us) we will realize at some point we have enoung and this realization will lead to inner peace and contentment and we will find that spiritual aspect of ourself that links us too all else of Tao (Oneness). One of our biggest hurdles will be in defining when we have enough. I think that this will vary between individuals. Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) Hehehe. I knew that. It is just that sometimes I feel the need to remind my Buddhist friends of that fact. You don't know much about Vajrayana Buddhism, huh? I'm not rich enough to be an adherent. Seriously! More or less the same as organized religious Taoism, probably. I'm under the impression that you regularly need money to pay for empowerments, ceremonies, shamanic charms or things like that. Your master takes the money, buys similar stuff from his master, and so on... All the way to the pope/Dalai Lama/Head Honcho. It's scary, really, many adherents (even in America) leading practically impoverished lives, living on "priceless" "bliss" and having just "enough" to go on. Ah, this takes me back to the first time I was banned on E-Sangha... So, anyhow. I suggest that once we find that beautiful harmony within, after we have secured our basic needs (and the needs of those who are dependant on us) we will realize at some point we have enoung and this realization will lead to inner peace and contentment and we will find that spiritual aspect of ourself that links us too all else of Tao (Oneness). So you suggest that life is about restoring our favorite centers every time the balance is lost? Sorry, it's a worthy goal, but it's not enough for me. One of our biggest hurdles will be in defining when we have enough. I think that this will vary between individuals. So true! PS. Here's one account of how things used to work in pre-modern China: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/cbu/cbu29.htm (the author is an overenthusiastic Christian preacher, so don't take his polemics too seriously, ok?) As for unorganized, folk Taoism: http://www.sacred-texts.com/asia/rsv/rsv05.htm (from an US army manual) Edited August 28, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) I'm not rich enough to be an adherent. Seriously! Same as organized religious Taoism, probably. I'm under the impression that you regularly need money to pay for empowerments, ceremonies, shamanic charms or things like that. Ok, your revealing your ignorance right here. I'm being straight on. Because as poor as you are, there is absolutely no money needed to get a free transmission from my Dzogchen Rinpoche, who is considered one of the highest adepts. Even to see the Dalai Lama was so darn cheap and even priced according to capacity. Such is most Vajrayana transmission's if you can get there by plane or boat or whatever, once you get there, you are NOT turned away due to financial difficulties, as they say in all the advertisments in small lettering on the bottom... sliding scale it's called. Not one bit true is your statement, not even an iota. Sorry to pull you out, but Vajrayana is the MOST accessible Tantric lineage on the planet!! Period!! I know!! From personal experience... Go ahead, call me on it. I'll pull out prices and the small lettering at the bottom of pages. Edited August 28, 2009 by Vajrahridaya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) Vajrahridaya: Of course I could be wrong. I have no personal experience with TB. (ignorance declared!) All my observations are based on years of trawling through E-Sangha topics. I clearly remember that some users were told you can offer to wash dishes and stuff like that to pay for empowerments. (not for Shingon though, which is even more expensive) Unfortunately, the average interested African American is unable to afford most dharma centers nowadays. Namdrol said it all comes down to one's karmic merit, be thankful Vajrayana exists at all, no one's turned away, etc. etc. I'm very sorry if I made the matter sound more extreme than it really is. That's breaking the precept of not exaggerating. Thankfully we have you to correct us when we step off the path of truth. PS. I don't want to fight. I know that all Tantric lineages charge money. It's built into their basic structure. (renunciation) Edited August 28, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sunya Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) yea Nac, you have no clue. but it's cool. many have misconceptions about Vajrayana. we all have misconceptions actually! so its great to clear them up. especially about such a powerful tradition. I only pay 70$ a year to be a member of the Dzogchen Community because i'm a student with basically no income. Sure I paid money to buy some books and a DVD from their store... but why should that stuff be free? Namkhai Norbu's transmission was free, and so is access to his open retreats via webcast. but you don't need to shell out money for Vajrayana like most people think. al though I do regularly get emails about empowerments in the area, which are always somekind of weekend retreat, and theres always a suggest donation.. but as Vajra said nobody is turned away for not having money. this is completely different than what I experienced in the Hindu community when I wanted to receive Shaktipat initiation. I emailed around and one Guru wanted 500$ for a long distance shaktipat... others have weekend intensives where it costs lots. I did one and paid I think it was 300$, I don't think it was a waste. I really got a lot out of my time there. I supported the Guru and his students, the house that they run, and their whole establishment. I think its important to see that giving money is necessary in this day and age. how else can a spiritual organization survive without donations? Westerners are so stingy with donating that teachers need to charge money or else they won't get anything. and what good is a teacher if he/she is starving and has no place to live? btw I learned first hand that E Sangha really isn't the best place to learn about Vajrayana... or Buddhism in general. in my experience, its about getting a feel for it yourself. I'm the kind of person that likes to research things before I jump in.. and I thought I had a pretty good idea of Vajrayana before I did, but now I realized I had no clue. Edited August 28, 2009 by mikaelz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) mikaelz: I was only bragging (perhaps somewhat irresponsibly) about how money-wise Buddhism is these days! On the other hand, this topic has come up on E-Sangha a lot of times and several people have complained about what a drain this was on their finances, although I agree that TB is probably one of the cheapest and most accessible tantric lineages around. They are often answered with things like: what you receive in exchange for the money is "priceless", etc. I swear it on whoever you believe in, but please don't start a fight about this. Edited August 28, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sunya Posted August 28, 2009 mikaelz: I was only bragging (perhaps somewhat irresponsibly) about how money-wise Buddhism is these days! On the other hand, this topic has come up on E-Sangha a lot of times and several people have complained about what a drain this was on their finances, although TB is probably one of the cheapest and most accessible tantric lineages around. They are often answered with things like: what you receive in exchange for the money is "priceless", etc. I swear it on whoever you believe in, but please don't start a fight about this. hey man not starting a fight! i'm too tired anyway! just wanted to clear up this misconception with you and maybe some others here who might be interested in practicing Vajrayana. the people who say that TB is financially draining are probably those that have the wrong idea about TB (Tibetan Buddhism). they might think that its all about 'collecting' empowerments and going to every retreat, when actually TB is about forming a relationship with a teacher. really all you would need is a couple empowerments and you're set for life.. more or less. empowerments in Tantra just give you power to do a specific practice. transmission in Dzogchen is the transmission of the natural state, so one should get this as many tmes as possible.. but its free with Namkhai Norbu. anyway my point is that Tibetan Buddhism is not financially draining if you know what you're doing and not running around collecting empowerments. I think i'll add some randomness to this thread Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) I agree about the fewer empowerments/dharma talks and focusing mainly on practice thing, but these topics span several threads and don't get resolved so easily. I'm aiming for the middle path between exaggeration and understatement, you know? Not one bit true is your statement, not even an iota. Even the biggest lies in the world are based on an iota of truth. Edited August 28, 2009 by nac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajrahridaya Posted August 28, 2009 Even the biggest lies in the world are based on an iota of truth. But it's subjective, therefore empty. Thereby, transformable through understanding more deeply. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 28, 2009 But it's subjective, therefore empty. Thereby, transformable through understanding more deeply. ... as long as it's not delusion disguised as understanding. (I would have been banned from E-Sangha at this point for sect bashing ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2009 You don't know much about Vajrayana Buddhism, huh? ... Nope. I have forgotten most of what I read nearly thirty years ago due to lack of use. As to organized religion of any form, I feel it is better for me to give my 'extra' money to those in need, not to someone who already has enough. So you suggest that life is about restoring our favorite centers every time the balance is lost? Sorry, it's a worthy goal, but it's not enough for me. I don't use the word 'balance' too often because I much prefer the word 'harmony'. But yes, I feel that if we are in harmony with our inner essence we will naturally be in harmony with all else. I don't normally use the word 'center' very often either because remaining 'centered' seems to me to be so uneventful - emotionless. I want to experience! I want to feel my emotions! I want to feel the swings of dominant yin the harmony then dominant yang, etc.! PS. Here's one account of how things used to work in pre-modern China: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/cbu/cbu29.htm (the author is an overenthusiastic Christian preacher, so don't take his polemics too seriously, ok?) As for unorganized, folk Taoism: http://www.sacred-texts.com/asia/rsv/rsv05.htm (from an US army manual) I would be very weary of any discussion of Taoist philosophy written by a Christian. Yes, "Sacred Texts" is a fantastic site. I use it occasionally. Happy Trails! ... as long as it's not delusion disguised as understanding. (I would have been banned from E-Sangha at this point for sect bashing ) Hehehe. You guys go ahead on. I'll just watch for now. Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mal Posted August 28, 2009 I think i'll add some randomness to this thread I was wondering why I suddenly decided to click on a 16 page thread. No idea what is going on... don't care. a dog dressed as the Enterprise I hope it took more than 4 can's of bud light to think of that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nac Posted August 28, 2009 I don't use the word 'balance' too often because I much prefer the word 'harmony'. But yes, I feel that if we are in harmony with our inner essence we will naturally be in harmony with all else. I don't normally use the word 'center' very often either because remaining 'centered' seems to me to be so uneventful - emotionless. I want to experience! I want to feel my emotions! I want to feel the swings of dominant yin the harmony then dominant yang, etc.! This is a personal matter, but I disagree with the general direction this is going. I would be very weary of any discussion of Taoist philosophy written by a Christian. It's not. Try it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted August 28, 2009 OMG!!! I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when I saw that pic!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2009 This is a personal matter, but I disagree with the general direction this is going. Well, take the lead. I know how to follow. Happy Trails! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sunya Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) I was wondering why I suddenly decided to click on a 16 page thread. No idea what is going on... don't care. a dog dressed as the Enterprise I hope it took more than 4 can's of bud light to think of that. watch out... the Enterprise is launching a shuttle craft!! Edited August 28, 2009 by mikaelz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
