What the Self Is (and Is Not)

[JustARandomPanda]

For other guitar players like me who like to doodle around.

 

Gametabs.net

 

 

final fantasy music is the best music ever made by anyone ever.

I would have to say

from Chrono Cross is the equal of FF music imo. And watch the ending...the

...and remembers all the past lives of those therein...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*and strangely fitting for the subject of this thread...

Edited August 30, 2009 by SereneBlue

[nac]

Marblehead: Zen teaches that the world we live in is not "imperfect", it's our views and ideals of perfection that are fundamentally flawed.

 

 

 

Was my understanding of the issue completely off or wrong?

How should I know that? I'm just warning you against trying to intellectualize insight. If you really want to know whether you've understood it correctly, you'd better ask in a Buddhist forum with good teachers.

[Vajrahridaya]

How should I know that? I'm just warning you against trying to intellectualize insight. If you really want to know whether you've understood it correctly, you'd better ask in a Buddhist forum with good teachers.

 

Sereneblue,

 

I agree with NAC. We're pretty ignorant Buddhists in here. There are way more qualified teachers in E-Sangha, and plenty that are not, but there are a good two hand fulls (20+) of really well educated and deeply experienced Buddhists in E-Sangha in every style of Buddhism from Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen.

[Nanashi]

Nac: Wow, that is a beautiful Enso.

[Marblehead]

BTW could you also clarify your conception of "nature"? (along with the metaphysical aspect which looks like a forced duality to me?) IMO the entity Taoists traditionally called "nature" is largely imaginary and has no true "existence", except in the shallowest sense. Where's that quote again? Here it is:

More or less the same applies to the Self.

 

Hi Nac,

 

The quote was not mine so I will not speak to it.

 

As to "nature" I view the word the same way I view the word "virtue", that is, with a two-fold meaning.

 

Nature (cap N) is the nature of Tao and the universe. This is the word I use for "Tzujan". The Nature of Tao.

 

Nature (lower n) is what I observe with my senses. The birds and the bees, how they act and interact. Human nature is a lower case 'n'. It is how we humans act and interact.

 

The nature of things will vary between individuals but the Nature of Tao is fixed and unchanging. (Yeah, I know some could argue with me regarding this concept but this is what my understanding is at the moment and will continue to be unless someone can enlighten me.)

 

But regardless of all variables, each thing and each non-thing is being true to its nature at any given point in time. (Can we modify our nature so that we become a 'better' individual? Of course we can!)

 

Happy Trails!

[Marblehead]

Marblehead: Zen teaches that the world we live in is not "imperfect", it's our views and ideals of perfection that are fundamentally flawed.

 

Well, surprise to you. I knew that a long time ago. Everything is exactly the way it is supposed to be at any given moment in time. It cannot be anything but so.

 

However, ... (Yeah, there is almost always a "however") from the point of view of all manifest forms that are capable of perception, whether it be as a result of instinct or cognitive thought, can imagine how something can be 'made better' from their own perspective.

 

So we can either accept things as they are, we can screw up and make things 'worse', or we can put thoughtful plans into action and make things 'better'. But no matter what option we select everything will be exactly the way it is supposed to be at any given point in time.

 

This is called "acceptance".

 

Happy Trails!

 

I agree with NAC. We're pretty ignorant Buddhists in here. There are way more qualified teachers in E-Sangha, and plenty that are not, but there are a good two hand fulls (20+) of really well educated and deeply experienced Buddhists in E-Sangha in every style of Buddhism from Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen.

 

And there are some of us here who are so ignorant of Buddhist concepts that we don't even qualify as Buddhists.

 

(I don't know why I felt the need to say that but it is now said. Hehehe.)

 

PS Two hands full equals 10 unless you have less or more than five digits on each hand.

 

Happy Trails!

[nac]

Well, surprise to you. I knew that a long time ago. Everything is exactly the way it is supposed to be at any given moment in time. It cannot be anything but so.

I confess! It was just an excuse to share that enso.

 

You could also call it the (dependently) "arising" or "becoming" if you like.

 

However, ... (Yeah, there is almost always a "however") from the point of view of all manifest forms that are capable of perception, whether it be as a result of instinct or cognitive thought, can imagine how something can be 'made better' from their own perspective.

Nothing wrong with a little constructive idealism IMO, especially when you're not meditating. That's also "just so", how could it be otherwise? (one way to look at it!)

 

Talk with you later.

Edited August 30, 2009 by nac

[Marblehead]

I confess! It was just an excuse to share that enso.

 

Hehehe. And you thought that I wasn't really paying attention to what you say?

 

You could also call it the (dependently) "arising" or "becoming" if you like.

 

Oh! I would never call it that. That would allow Vajrahridaya the opportunity to pounce on me.

 

Nothing wrong with a little constructive idealism IMO, especially when you're not meditating. That's also "just so", how could it be otherwise? (one way to look at it!)

 

Exactly. Nothing wrong with idealism as long as we keep a proper mix of reality in with it.

 

Talk with you later.

 

Or sooner.

 

Happy Trails!

[Creation]

final fantasy music is the best music ever made by anyone ever.

Nobuo Uematsu is a living god of music. I just found that version of Those Who Fight a few days ago and wanted to post it in response to Findley. I refrained...

 

I would have to say

from Chrono Cross is the equal of FF music imo.

Yasunori Mitsuda is great too, but he doesn't have nearly as many truly brilliant pieces as Uematsu-san. Time's Scar gives me goose bumps, but not quite like Liberi Fatali, Dancing Mad, One Winged Angel, or Darkness and Starlight.

 

Side by side comparison:

 

lHQ7yEYwEnE

 

1WF8PibP8a4

 

Another brilliant piece of Mitsuda's is Flight from Xenogears:

 

WxAzuUgI460

 

Rapturously epic.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Creation

[Vajrahridaya]

And there are some of us here who are so ignorant of Buddhist concepts that we don't even qualify as Buddhists.

 

(I don't know why I felt the need to say that but it is now said. Hehehe.)

 

PS Two hands full equals 10 unless you have less or more than five digits on each hand.

 

Happy Trails!

 

Well... I wasn't thinking specifically the digits on one's hands, but I figure it takes two hands to carry 20 name tags? LOL!

 

It's a good thing your a Taoist and not a Baptist Christian... that's like... major quantum leap for your area of living there partner.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

It's a good thing your a Taoist and not a Baptist Christian... that's like... major quantum leap for your area of living there partner.

 

Hehehe. My partner left a long time ago. Yes, she became a Southern Baptist after she moved here. (But she's still not happy so it wasn't my fault.)

 

Happy Trails!

[Vajrahridaya]

Hehehe. My partner left a long time ago. Yes, she became a Southern Baptist after she moved here. (But she's still not happy so it wasn't my fault.)

 

Happy Trails!

 

I've yet to meet a happy Baptist Christian... honestly. Theres no real methodology or psychology for the most part. Just dancing around and emotionally and passionately pronouncing one's blind faith into a frenzy! But... I'm sure there's a couple of happy one's out there, if not a bit deludely so? Not to say I'm always Mr. non-delusion either. But... I do feel that I have an advantage in the "spiritual path to happiness" idea.

 

I think if one is going to be a Christian, it's better to read from the Desert Fathers "Philokalia" and the Eastern Orthodox Saints as well as some of the more well known Catholic Saints including the ex-communicated Miester Eckhart.

 

But, luckily I don't have to make that choice and I can be whatever I want!

[Marblehead]

I've yet to meet a happy Baptist Christian... honestly.

 

That is so close to the truth it hurts. A good friend I had who has since passed from cancer was pretty happy even though I met him only after cancer was detected. And I know of one woman who's husband has passed who is very happy. It is always a joy to see her.

 

My best friend here is a non-denominational Christian and even though his life is complicated he is still a happy camper. He meets with the Jehovah's Witnesses once a week for a couple hours.

 

But, luckily I don't have to make that choice and I can be whatever I want!

 

Yeah. You've already changed a couple times haven't you? (Sorry. I just couldn't resist that. Hehehe.)

 

Happy Trails!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Yeah. You've already changed a couple times haven't you? (Sorry. I just couldn't resist that. Hehehe.)

 

Happy Trails!

 

LOL! I changed once. I was merely convinced by the Buddhas argument, which is exactly directed towards Hindus, which is what I was.

 

So... as a Hindu, I became Buddhist, which is what the Buddha did... he turned Hindu's to Buddhists through careful dissection of their belief system. It was not an easy turn for me, believe me! I was actually quite the happy Hindu!!

Edited August 30, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

LOL! I changed once. I was merely convinced by the Buddhas argument, which is exactly directed towards Hindus, which is what I was.

 

So... as a Hindu, I became Buddhist, which is what the Buddha did... he turned Hindu's to Buddhists through careful dissection of their belief system. It was not an easy turn for me, believe me! I was actually quite the happy Hindu!!

 

Why was I not surprised to see such a rational response?

 

I was Lutheran for about 20 years then nothing for about twenty years and now a Neitzschian-Taoist. (I made that label up myself. Hehehe.)

 

Happy Trails!

[宁]

Heh, Christians have a vocation for suffering. Remember that Jesus is very often depicted as dying in pain.

So for them suffering may mean a different story than for Buddhists.

 

 

That aside, I've been meaning to ask you buddhist guys some questions:

- what exactly is alaya vijnana in psychological terms?

- i always have the feeling that there must be something that goes even deeper than the 'pure observer'? is that true, and if it is, what is it?

 

thanX

 

L1

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Neitzschian-Taoist. (I made that label up myself. Hehehe.)

 

Happy Trails!

 

So an optimistic nihilist? Oh wait... no sorry... a Nihilistic Optimist!

 

For how long now?

 

Heh, Christians have a vocation for suffering. Remember that Jesus is very often depicted as dying in pain.

So for them suffering may mean a different story than for Buddhists.

 

There is a passage in the Bible that says something about "longsuffering" and that has been translated in very limited ways by many Christians to mean that there is no escape from suffering until death and entering into heaven. In my opinion due to the appearance of many other passages pointing to a state of mind that see's heaven on Earth, talking about experiencing the joy of the Eternal Lord, is just to see past physical suffering and experience psychological joy regardless of physical depravity and to be patient in the face of such sufferings, firmly focused in the stance of super mundane joy in the light of love for God.

 

 

- what exactly is alaya vijnana in psychological terms?

 

Your own personal unconscious mind and it's storehouse of impressions.

 

- i always have the feeling that there must be something that goes even deeper than the 'pure observer'? is that true, and if it is, what is it?

 

thanX

 

L1

 

Well, it's not so much that there is deeper, there is just a deeper interpretation of that state where one dis-identifies with that "super subject" as an absolute, through integration of emptiness/dependent origination through the practice of Vipassana, or Vipashyana, meaning "insight meditation" where one integrates sensation with observation through the wisdom of the 12 links of dependent origination. One can practice Vipassana all the time, even in deep meditative states. This allows one to transcend the identity of a super witness of all and have more of an objective insight into the workings of oneself and of the universe.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

So a optimistic nihilist?

 

Yeah, I guess one could say that. I sometimes call myself an optimistic-realist.

 

I have a copy of the Optimist's Creed taped on my bedroom closet door just in case if I wake up in the morning in a crappy mood I can look at it and everything is fixed.

 

For how long now?

 

I read Neitzsche before I read my first reading of the Tao Te Ching, probably 1983-1984. Much of Neitzsche felt really good to me but it just left too many empty places. Then I read the TTC and all the holes were filled. So the good of Neitzsche has stayed with me all along.

 

Happy Trails

Edited August 30, 2009 by Marblehead

[Vajrahridaya]

Yeah, I guess one could say that. I sometimes call myself an optimistic-realist.

 

Well, for someone like me... what's real to most is not all together real to me, but merely a seemingly elongated moment to play through.

 

But seriously, reading Neitzsche is not such a bad place to be, he was not a dumb person, that's for sure. Though in my opinion he could have learned more optimistic morality from Kant.

 

I read Neitzsche before I read my first reading of the Tao Te Ching, probably 1983-1984. Much of Neitzsche felt really good to me but it just left too many empty places. Then I read the TTC and all the holes were filled. So the good of Neitzsche has stayed with me all along.

 

Happy Trails

 

Well see, with that explanation, there comes an understanding. Not bad, not bad. To get the good from Neitzsche and couple it with Taoism is something that he would not do, but I can see how you could do it.

 

 

I have a copy of the Optimist's Creed taped on my bedroom closet door just in case if I wake up in the morning in a crappy mood I can look at it and everything is fixed.

 

Happy Trails

 

Isn't it amazing how much a mere change in perspective can completely transform one's experience of a seemingly fixed object? Sounds like Einsteins theory of relativity at work right there.

[Marblehead]

But seriously, reading Neitzsche is not such a bad place to be, he was not a dumb person, that's for sure. Though in my opinion he could have learned more optimistic morality from Kant.

 

I can't Kant!!! I picked up one his books many years ago, read the preface and put the book down and never considered reading anything of his after that moment.

 

Well see, with that explanation, there comes an understanding. Not bad, not bad. To get the good from Neitzsche and couple it with Taoism is something that he would not do, but I can see how you could do it.

 

Yeah. He was a bit hard-headed but then he was German so it stands to reason.

 

Also I had already had a Taoist experience prior to all of that and Taoism explained my experience.

 

Isn't it amazing how much a mere change in perspective can completely transform one's experience of a seemingly fixed object? Sounds like Einsteins theory of relativity at work right there.

 

Yep! (You have said everything that needs be said on this.)

 

Happy Trails!

[Sunya]

I can't Kant!!! I picked up one his books many years ago, read the preface and put the book down and never considered reading anything of his after that moment.

Yeah. He was a bit hard-headed but then he was German so it stands to reason.

 

Also I had already had a Taoist experience prior to all of that and Taoism explained my experience.

Yep! (You have said everything that needs be said on this.)

 

Happy Trails!

 

i'm taking a class on Nietzche this semester.. and a class on Mysticism... and a class on Ethics... I think those classes in balance will be nice so I don't fall into nihilism by reading too much of the Nietzch-meister

[Marblehead]

i'm taking a class on Nietzche this semester.. and a class on Mysticism... and a class on Ethics... I think those classes in balance will be nice so I don't fall into nihilism by reading too much of the Nietzch-meister

 

That sounds great! I hope you enjoy the Neitzsche class. All I can suggest is that you keep an open mind because his philosophy is definately different.

 

You reminded me, back when I was in college I was taking a European History course and we had to write a paper on one of the people in the study. I chose Neitzsche. Before the papers were returned the prof. showed my paper to the philosophy instructor and he told my history instructor that he (the philosophy instructor) wanted me to take one of his classes so he could discuss Neitzsche with me.

 

Sadly, I was going to school on the G. I. Bill and as the course was not in my program I would have had to pay for it myself and I just didn't have the money at the time.

 

Happy Trails!

 

BTW If Neitzsche does get to you you can always pick up some stuff from Camus and he will straighten everything back out for you.

 

Happy Trails!

Edited August 30, 2009 by Marblehead

[Nanashi]

[Marblehead]

[宁]

When i was younger, i thought camus's question was a smart one.

Now i think his view maybe a bit selfish.

We don't have anything: our bodies and our energy is borrowed from our parents and nature.

And the spirit belongs to the divine.

I went thru a Nietzchean phase myself, but instead of existentialism there was something else that 'saved me': the teachings of CC... particularly 'the way of the warrior' was the one that shifted my view permanently.