The Significance of Taoist Virtue

[manitou]

 

 

Taoist philosophy; Lao Tzu & Chuang Tzu, says nothing about submitting our ego. That is a Buddhist concept, not a Taoist concept.

 

 

My darling Marbles - you are so much more learned about such things, which concept is which, what the Buddhists say, what the Taoists say. I can only speak from direct experience; the Sage cannot be the Sage unless he has learned to sidestep, transcend, submit, knock down....the Ego. But not the whole ego, only the parts that keep one from seeing clearly. The jealousy, the anger, the arrogance, the know-it-allness, the pride, the aggressiveness, sarcasm....all those things that have evolved within the individual to inhibit the clarity of vision. If one is standing on one of those stumps thinking they're at the bottom, they're just not seeing clearly.

 

I've always been a little surprised that the TTC doesn't give a little more information on exactly how to become the Sage. In our Nei-Yeh discussions the next few chapters will have very meaty stuff on just that.

[The Way Is Virtue]

I've always been a little surprised that the TTC doesn't give a little more information on exactly how to become the Sage.

 

Hi manitou. I personally am currently of the opinion that the Dao De Jing does include the whole process. IMO, there is much encoded in there...

[The Way Is Virtue]

I think that it is not until we have lessened our desires and lessened our ego and lessened our conflicts with others that we will have a chance to find contentment. Once we are content we have the capacity and capability to be 'natural'.

Now, the Virtue of Tao is a different situation altogether and a totally different story so for now ...

The End

 

Hi marble. The Dao De Jing speaks of low virtue and high virtue. We must all start with where we are at and work from there. When the Dao De Jing describes low virtue as involving doing and high virtue as involving non-doing, it is not passing judgement, but pointing out the different actualizations. In actual practice, we have to start with where we are at. By practicing 'low virtue' we begin to refine or dissolve the 'false heart' (in modern terms, the ego). Cultivating the true heart (our true nature) is an ongoing process. If we do not start from where we are and work from there we are only chasing pipe dreams. IMO, Taoism at its essence is about practicality, it is not just about abstract concepts that can't be put into practical use. Taoism at its essence is really just ways of putting the concepts of taoism into practical use.

Edited March 26, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

A hiccup occurred when editing my post above. Seems to have created this extra reply..

Edited March 26, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Marblehead]

... the Sage cannot be the Sage unless he has learned to sidestep, transcend, submit, knock down....the Ego. But not the whole ego, only the parts that keep one from seeing clearly. The jealousy, the anger, the arrogance, the know-it-allness, the pride, the aggressiveness, sarcasm....all those things that have evolved within the individual to inhibit the clarity of vision. If one is standing on one of those stumps thinking they're at the bottom, they're just not seeing clearly.

 

I've always been a little surprised that the TTC doesn't give a little more information on exactly how to become the Sage. In our Nei-Yeh discussions the next few chapters will have very meaty stuff on just that.

 

Exactly. To be so clear that you can become the mirror for the world to see itself. Clarity is such a nice concept.

 

The Way is Virtue spoke well to your second paragraph. For myself, these things didn't start shining through until after I had read Chuang Tzu.

[Marblehead]

Hi marble. The Dao De Jing speaks of low virtue and high virtue. We must all start with where we are at and work from there. When the Dao De Jing describes low virtue as involving doing and high virtue as involving non-doing, it is not passing judgement, but pointing out the different actualizations. In actual practice, we have to start with where we are at. By practicing 'low virtue' we begin to refine or dissolve the 'false heart' (in modern terms, the ego). Cultivating the true heart (our true nature) is an ongoing process. If we do not start from where we are and work from there we are only chasing pipe dreams. IMO, Taoism at its essence is about practicality, it is not just about abstract concepts that can't be put into practical use. Taoism at its essence is really just ways of putting the concepts of taoism into practical use.

 

What a great understanding!

 

I sometimes speak to the states (conditions) of 'yo' (the Manifest) and 'wu' (the Mystery [some would call it the Spiritual]). I think that when we are in total 'yo' we have our concentration on only the physical world (low virtue); when we are in total 'wu' we have our concentration on only the Spiritual (high virtue).

 

Now wait a minute. Hehehe.

 

This, IMO, is not to suggest that low virtue is something negative and that high virtue is something positive. It just means that we are functioning from different planes of being. Low virtue can be One with the Way of Tao just as high virtue can. Depends on how we interact with others and our environment.

 

Something said to me one time has stuck firmly in my mind regarding this and that is "To keep one foot firmly rooted in the Manifest and the other firmly rooted in the Mystery." I think that this is the most efficient way to live our life.

 

Now, I will agree with you that we must play the cards we are dealt. We must live with the conditions we have at any given moment. But this is no reason why we cannot try to improve not only our external conditions but our internal conditions as well.

 

And yes, a journey of a thousand miles begins with our first step. Can't skip any steps else we fall and have to get back up and try to figure out why we fell. I guess this is called not pushing things.

[Everything]

If a human is acting according to their acquired world view and conditioned beliefs, is this acting according to their nature?

Maybe we should consider a diffrent question instead of this one, and perhaps the one that followed.

 

The acquired world view and conitioned believes are part of the nature of a person. Do not question wether it is natural. Question wether it is ones complete nature. Wether it is ones full potential. That is the question to ask.

 

It is acting according to ones limited nature, where as using the full potential of his nature would include the ability to recognize ones own believes and change it when it is necesarry. Being flexible with ones "delusioned and biased" reality. We cannot live without a reality, so we choose to be flexible with it. That is how you reflect the "Dao in you" while alive. It can be done simply by accepting the fact that Tao can never be known, so we make this truth our home. We live according to this fact, and prepare our selves for a journey that will never end.

[Stigweard]

Question:

 

If contrived virtue arises simultaneously with conceptual thinking, wouldn't True Virtue be revealed simultaneously with the cessation of internal dialogue?

 

[manitou]

Question:

 

If contrived virtue arises simultaneously with conceptual thinking, wouldn't True Virtue be revealed simultaneously with the cessation of internal dialogue?

 

 

Absolutely. The place from which the One can be realized is only found with the cessation of internal dialogue. This is a very important part of the Castaneda path as well. Many years of meditation practice makes it possible to cease the dialogue; it can be done nearly instantaneously.

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Stigweard]

Bumping this up seeing that the topic has arisen once again in other topics. Important to note that Dao is ever-present in ALL things, no exception. De is the reflection of Dao, the Dao-nature, within all things.

 

[ChiDragon]

I envy you. I say that as a compliment to your ability. Sad that I had such a horrible start in my early education process.

 

Anyhow: Ultimately the Virtue of Tao and the virtue of man are one and the same.

 

I totally agree but this is exactly where the arguements begin when the evil actions of man are considered.

 

I also like the heart connection in virtue, like saying Tao is the Path of Heart.

 

Yes. I like that too. Chuang Tzu loved to refer to the heart of man in his discussions.

 

Be well!

 

Marblehead: "Ultimately the Virtue of Tao and the virtue of man are one and the same."

Sorry, they are not the same. One cannot judge the TTC meaning of 德(Te) by the character itself. I am sure that you have doubt in your mind because you have distinguished the English word "virtue" with 'V' and 'v'.

 

Marblehead: "Ah! What am I perhaps saying regarding Virtue and virtue? Hehehe. That is still a work in progress."

I would like to work this with you if you don't mind. BTW That was my recent thought and starting a new thread on the subject. However, I held down the Ctrl + an unknown key and the thread vanished. Actually, my browser closed. Fortunately, I picked up on this one.

Edited May 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Marblehead: "Ultimately the Virtue of Tao and the virtue of man are one and the same."

Sorry, they are not the same. One cannot judge the TTC meaning of 德(Te) by the character itself. I am sure that you have doubt in your mind because you have distinguished the English word "virtue" with 'V' and 'v'.

 

Marblehead: "Ah! What am I perhaps saying regarding Virtue and virtue? Hehehe. That is still a work in progress."

I would like to work this with you if you don't mind. BTW That was my recent thought and starting a new thread on the subject. However, I held down the Ctrl + an unknown key and the thread vanished. Actually, my browser closed. Fortunately, I picked up on this one.

 

I know that the Virtue of Tao and the virtue of man are different (but not always). However, they spring from the same source (process).

 

And yes, Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu spoke to the differences between the Virtue of Tao and the virtue of man.

 

I would enjoy engaging in a discussion of the concepts with you. Be aware though that I will have to consider 'the true nature of things' in the discussion in order to feel the subject is being discussed properly.

[ChiDragon]

I know that the Virtue of Tao and the virtue of man are different (but not always). However, they spring from the same source (process).

 

And yes, Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu spoke to the differences between the Virtue of Tao and the virtue of man.

 

I would enjoy engaging in a discussion of the concepts with you. Be aware though that I will have to consider 'the true nature of things' in the discussion in order to feel the subject is being discussed properly.

 

What does everyone think of the comments:

 

~ "Dao begets all things, and Virtue fosters them."

~ "Virtue is the reflection of Dao, and Dao is the root of Virtue."

 

Chapter 51

1. 道生之：　Dao engenders all things，

2. 德育之：　Virtue fosters them.

 

Here is the modern interpretation of the 道生之,德育之.

1. All things were evolved from a process that was existed in a natural environment. It was considered to be that Tao engendered them(道生之).

 

2. There is a nourishing procedure that was existed in a natural environment was utilized for the development of all things. It was considered to be that Te fostered them(德育之).

 

By LaoTze's definition, the meaning of 德(Te) stands alone in Chapter 51.

 

1. Tao engenders it,

2. Te fosters it.

3. Matter forms it,

4. Environment grows it.

5. Hence, all things respect Tao and honor Te.

6. Tao's dignity,

7. Te's value.

8. Those were not interfered but let them be natural.

9. Therefore,

10.Tao engenders it,

11.Te fosters it.

12.Grow it nourish it,

13.Let it grow to maturity,

14.Foster it and protect it.

15.Produce it but not possess it.

16.Keep it but not restrain it,

17.Raise it but not control it,

18.Is the abyssal virtue.

 

The virtues of Tao were defined by lines 12 through 18:

12.Grow it nourish it,

13.Let it grow to maturity,

14.Foster it and protect it.

15.Produce it but not possess it.

16.Keep it but not restrain it,

17.Raise it but not control it,

18.Is the abyssal virtue.

 

Line 18 specifically pointed out that lines 12 through 17 are the Te of Tao.

Edited May 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Immortal4life]

Very interesting OP.

 

Yes I think it can be possible for a human to act virtuously and in alignment with Tao, but they must know how, and it is not easy for a human.

[Marblehead]

The virtues of Tao were defined by lines 12 through 18:

12.Grow it nourish it,

13.Let it grow to maturity,

14.Foster it and protect it.

15.Produce it but not possess it.

16.Keep it but not restrain it,

17.Raise it but not control it,

18.Is the abyssal virtue.

 

 

Agree. And I think that these are excellent virtues for amn to hold to.

[ChiDragon]

Agree. And I think that these are excellent virtues for man to hold to.

Yes, these Virtues of Tao was considered to be the Wu Wei concept. If human follows the Wu Wei concept was considered to be 有道(you tao, small t) or virtuous.

 

 

"Be aware though that I will have to consider 'the true nature of things' in the discussion in order to feel the subject is being discussed properly."

Yes, that was the reason why I am here.

Edited May 31, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Aaron]

Okay, so to make this more interesting, what exactly are the Taoist Virtues we are supposed to foster? Is it the three jewels or does it go deeper than that? How do we know what is Te and what isn't? If we simply use the definition "engendered from Tao" can we really have an actual answer or are we simply working on faith?

 

Aaron

[ChiDragon]

Okay, so to make this more interesting, what exactly are the Taoist Virtues we are supposed to foster? Is it the three jewels or does it go deeper than that? How do we know what is Te and what isn't? If we simply use the definition "engendered from Tao" can we really have an actual answer or are we simply working on faith?

 

Aaron

 

Rephrase...

10.Tao engenders all things,

11.Te fosters them.

12.Grow all things nourish them,

13.Let all things grow to maturity,

14.Foster all things and protect them.

15.Produce all things but not possess them.

16.Keep them but not restrain them,

17.Raise them but not control them,

18.Is the abyssal virtue(Te).

 

These are all spelled out in Chapter 51, no where else.

Edited May 31, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Aaron]

Rephrase...

10.Tao engenders all things,

11.Te fosters them.

12.Grow all things nourish them,

13.Let all things grow to maturity,

14.Foster all things and protect them.

15.Produce all things but not possess them.

16.Keep them but not restrain them,

17.Raise them but not control them,

18.Is the abyssal virtue(Te).

 

These are all spelled out in Chapter 51, no where else.

 

Hello Chi,

 

I understand this, my point is that it's not very specific. The passages you've translated are vague. Do you believe that the Tao Teh Ching is intentionally vague in this regard, or are there actual virtues one can attribute to Te and Tao? Compassion for instance?

 

Aaron

 

Aaron

Edited May 31, 2011 by Twinner

[ChiDragon]

Hello Chi,

 

I understand this, my point is that it's not very specific. The passages you've translated are vague. Do you believe that the Tao Teh Ching is intentionally vague in this regard, or are there actual virtues one can attribute to Te and Tao? Compassion for instance?

 

Aaron

 

Aaron

I had specifically stated that the definition of Te stands alone in Chapter 51.

Maybe it seems vague to you because you are mixing external human emotions with Tao and Te. This chapter was very clear to me that Tao let Nature take it course be letting all things grow without any interference. LaoTze defined the Te is the actual virtue; Te(Chinese) = virtue(English). It seems to me you are looking at Te and virtue are two different things. Actually they carry the same meaning but the only difference between them are the two languages.

 

Another word, Te is virtue; and virtue is Te. Therefore, I am not saying virtue is attribute to Te because Te and virtue are identical. This is the best I could explain it.

[Marblehead]

"Be aware though that I will have to consider 'the true nature of things' in the discussion in order to feel the subject is being discussed properly."

 

Yes, that was the reason why I am here.

 

I kinda' thought that you placed importance on this.

[Marblehead]

I had specifically stated that the definition of Te stands alone in Chapter 51.

Maybe it seems vague to you because you are mixing external human emotions with Tao and Te. This chapter was very clear to me that Tao let Nature take it course be letting all things grow without any interference. LaoTze defined the Te is the actual virtue; Te(Chinese) = virtue(English). It seems to me you are looking at Te and virtue are two different things. Actually they carry the same meaning but the only difference between them are the two languages.

 

Another word, Te is virtue; and virtue is Te. Therefore, I am not saying virtue is attribute to Te because Te and virtue are identical. This is the best I could explain it.

 

I would like to add to this.

 

Te (Virtue with a upper case "V") is the Way (Upper case "W") of Tao. It is the way (the processes) Tao functions.

 

Chapter 51 defines what man considers to be positive attributes of the way of Tao. But we are also reminded that creation is the same as destruction in the eyes of Tao.

 

These destructive processes are generally considered vices in the eyes of man. But they are only the processes. Judgements cannot be placed on the Te of Tao.

 

However, the te (virtue, lower cose "v') of man is different because we place judgement on everything. (We define beauty and in doing so we also define ugly.)

 

The base guidelines for the virtue of man is the three treasures. Chapter 51 expands on this concept. The chapter speaks to the Te of Tao but they can be directly related to attributes that would be considered good if man were to follow these guidelines.

 

I personally think that man's ego leads one away from the three treasures. Ego causes us to experience greed and other desires. Therefore we are told to lessen our ego, to lessen our desires.

[Aaron]

I had specifically stated that the definition of Te stands alone in Chapter 51.

Maybe it seems vague to you because you are mixing external human emotions with Tao and Te. This chapter was very clear to me that Tao let Nature take it course be letting all things grow without any interference. LaoTze defined the Te is the actual virtue; Te(Chinese) = virtue(English). It seems to me you are looking at Te and virtue are two different things. Actually they carry the same meaning but the only difference between them are the two languages.

 

Another word, Te is virtue; and virtue is Te. Therefore, I am not saying virtue is attribute to Te because Te and virtue are identical. This is the best I could explain it.

 

Hello Chi,

 

I think we've talked about this before, so you should know that I believe that Te is not virtue, but rather the resulting action that occurs from Tao. My question was simply do you believe that there are actual virtues attributed to Taoism. I'm still not entirely sure how you view Te, is it a single virtue or multiple virtues?

 

My own personal opinion is that Te is an action that arises from Tao. There are virtues that men can perform, but I don't think it's possible to consciously perform Te, but rather it needs to arise spontaneously. I think that's what's being talked about here. Also I think it's important to differentiate between high virtue and virtue.

 

An interesting way to think of it is that Tao is the creator, but Te is the process, or at least that seems to be how Lao Tzu is explaining it in this chapter.

 

Aaron